• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Kurds Show Signs of Seceding From Iraq [ttlchngd] (1 Viewer)

gprime

New member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Source: Washington Post

With violence bloodying Iraq, Kurds in the peaceful north have been showing signs of going their own way, raising their own flag and even hinting they could secede in a dispute over oil wealth _ moves that have alarmed Shiites and Sunnis.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's visit to Kurdistan on Friday underlined American worries that Kurds may be pushing too hard too soon for autonomy powers at a time of increasing sectarian tensions.

....

"The people of Kurdistan chose to be in a voluntary union with Iraq on the basis of the constitution," Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani said in a statement issued Sept. 28. "If Baghdad ministers refuse to abide by that constitution, the people of Kurdistan reserve the right to reconsider our choice."

(Continued)

I must say, it is a shame to see that for the second time in a decade and a half, the US is abandoning the one group of Iraqis who appreciate American efforts and which seek to emulate the values we cling to so dearly. The Kurds are important players in the region. And really shouldn't undermine them the way we currently are.
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

I agree. The Kurds should definitely have their own state; did you know that they're the largest ethnic group in the world without a home? They're a minority in every country they live in. Kurdistan would certainly be a dependable US ally.

Unfortunately, if they secede, Turkey will probably invade. In light of that, I think that they shouldn't rush secession. As long as the violence doesn't spill over into Northern Iraq, they're probably better off remaining a de facto independent state instead of actually declaring independence.
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

So you all want to reward a group of people who have used terrorism to further thier cause? And it would not only be the Turks invading, it would be the Syrians and Iranians and of course the south of Iraq. Kurdistan is a bad idea, as bad as it was putting Isreal on the map, but at least this time the people in question actually live in the area. And this is a geo political view nothing else.
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

Kandahar said:
I agree. The Kurds should definitely have their own state; did you know that they're the largest ethnic group in the world without a home? They're a minority in every country they live in. Kurdistan would certainly be a dependable US ally.

Unfortunately, if they secede, Turkey will probably invade. In light of that, I think that they shouldn't rush secession. As long as the violence doesn't spill over into Northern Iraq, they're probably better off remaining a de facto independent state instead of actually declaring independence.

You bring up an important point, however, I'd remind you that both Turkey and Iran already have an invasion plan in the works.
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

gprime,

Thanks for participating in DP.

Please note a few items from here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...es-rules-please-read-before-posting-here.html

In order to better organize the news forum and help spur debate across all the forums, "Today's News" has been renamed "Breaking News." Here are some guidelines to help you properly use this forum.

1. All posts must have a link to a news article, accompanied by some original commentary.

2. The title of every post must be identical to the title of the news story headline. This is important as it helps to avoid multiple topics about an issue, while starting discussions out on a more neutral basis.

If a story is titled "Rice Negotiates With UN about Iran Nukes," then that should be the title of your thread, not "Warmongers Lie to try to Start WWIII" or "Condi Stands up to Euro-Wusses."

3. All news stories should be from within the past 48 hours. If they are outside of that, please post them in the relevant discussion forum.

4. If you see a post that doesn't follow these guidelines, please let a mod know and we'll either move it to its proper place or work with the original poster to fix the issue.

5. Please help by following these guidelines closely so our forum can stay organized.

Thanks to everyone for your help, and have fun debating!
Again, we're glad to have you here.

SWM
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

PeteEU said:
So you all want to reward a group of people who have used terrorism to further thier cause? .


What an utterly ironic statement considering the source.
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

PeteEU said:
So you all want to reward a group of people who have used terrorism to further thier cause?

Unlike most Arab groups who openly support terrorism or are silent, the Kurds truly ARE opposed to terrorism. Yes, there have been some terrorist attacks carried out in their name in Turkey, but those attacks are roundly condemned by most Kurds. And there haven't been any attacks in a long time.

Every country has a few violent nuts. But they don't represent the majority viewpoint in Kurdistan.
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

Kandahar said:
Unlike most Arab groups who openly support terrorism or are silent, the Kurds truly ARE opposed to terrorism. Yes, there have been some terrorist attacks carried out in their name in Turkey, but those attacks are roundly condemned by most Kurds. And there haven't been any attacks in a long time.

Every country has a few violent nuts. But they don't represent the majority viewpoint in Kurdistan.

I'm assuming he is trying to make a comparison to the stance people tend to take against radical Islam, so let us, for the sake of the arguement, assume his claim is true, and they all supported the instances of "terrorism" to which he objects. Yet even if the tactics of the Kurds had some similarities, there would remain critical differences. For starters, the Kurds have suffered abuse and oppression at the hands of the Islamic overlords. The only way this can stop is if they are no longer under the jurisdiction of those funadmentalist Islamic states which occupy Kurd land. Additionally, the Kurds aren't working to destroy others or their lands, nor do they seek to obliterate other nations. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, unlike the Jihadists, they have a legitimate claim to the land they covet. Compare that to radical Muslims, especially those attempting to create a "Palestinian" state on Israeli territory. They have no historic claim, are hell bent on the destruction of Israel, frequently attack civilians, and have been given more in the way of freedoms and aids under Israeli law than they could have ever fathomed when part of Jordan or Egypt. In otherwords, the Israelis have enhanced the conditions for the Muslims in their land, and said Muslims refuse to accept this, instead attempting to destroy Israel to create a country with no historic or legal validity. Conversely, the Kurds have been oppressed yet remained largely peaceful, hoping to one day reclaim the land which has always legitimately been their property, so that they could create an independent Kurdistan.
 
I'm assuming he is trying to make a comparison to the stance people tend to take against radical Islam, so let us, for the sake of the arguement, assume his claim is true, and they all supported the instances of "terrorism" to which he objects.

Partly and the hypocritcal and double standard part. Its okay to use terrorists tactics as long as its the "good guys" and thier "friends" that are using them. Are terrorists not terrorists regardless who they attack or what thier motives are?

Yet even if the tactics of the Kurds had some similarities, there would remain critical differences.

Some similarites and critical differences? They use bombs, murder and assasination too. They have bombed cafes, schools, buses and assinated people. This is terror is it not? The same that Isreal and other nations have been hit by no? Or is it not terror because the kurds "are our friends"? Its only a few weeks ago they bombed a tourist resort for peaksake.

For starters, the Kurds have suffered abuse and oppression at the hands of the Islamic overlords.

And arabs in the occupied west bank, gaza and other places are not suffering under the Isreali jaugernaut? While I agree that the Kurds have "suffered" in someways under Turkeys and other nations control, but so have other minorities and even the other parts of the population. Is it liberate all the oppressed people but only those living in non friendly areas of the planet policy?

The only way this can stop is if they are no longer under the jurisdiction of those funadmentalist Islamic states which occupy Kurd land.

So Turkey is now a fundamentalist state? Syria is? I agree Iran is a fundementalist nation.. but Saddams Iraq? I think you need to look up the fundementalist part...

Additionally, the Kurds aren't working to destroy others or their lands, nor do they seek to obliterate other nations.

Tell that to the turks living in "kurdistan" part of Turkey, that have been hit by terror and assasination. And what is there to stop the Kurds preforming "ethnic cleansning" in the areas they control.. they after all are attemtping to do it in Iraq. Sure Saddam forced arabs to the north to "break up" the kurdish domination of the area, but that makes it okay 20 to 30 years later to start kicking them out? And what about the other minorities in the area who claim historical claims and are being forced out by the Kurds?

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, unlike the Jihadists, they have a legitimate claim to the land they covet.

Ahh the old historical claim bullshit and double standard. If we allow more "minorities" to gain land and statehood based on some ancient historical fact, then we cant pick and choose. In Northern Iraq, in the area under Kurdish control, and claimed by Kurds, there are far more miniorites (who are being oppressed by the kurds as we speak) who have even more ancient claim to the area. And if we look away from that, what about American Indians.. want to give the US back to them, because they have exactly the same historical right to the whole of the US as the kurds or Jews have to thier lands by you own standard. There are the Aztec peoples of Mexico who can claim the whole of Mexico City as thier own by your standard, the remaining Incas can claim half of South America and so on. Do you really want to go that way.. Isreal was a huge mistake, but do you really want to open old wounds like that again? Look at the problems this nation has cause.. imagine 5 or 10 similar situations all over the planet?

Compare that to radical Muslims, especially those attempting to create a "Palestinian" state on Israeli territory.

Again, there were far more arabs than jews when Isreal was formed, and the land like it or not was stolen by the UN to please a minority in the area. This is fact and can not be denied. Radical muslims have used and continue to use the palistine problem as a rallying cry and the US and Isreals and the palestinians leaderships unwillingness to seriously enter into talks has only give the radical elements of the arab world more power. The more violience and oppression, the more radicalised the population in the area gets... sad but true.

They have no historic claim, are hell bent on the destruction of Israel, frequently attack civilians, and have been given more in the way of freedoms and aids under Israeli law than they could have ever fathomed when part of Jordan or Egypt.

So now you are saying that Israeli Arabs are terrorists and not only those arabs in the occupied areas? There is no doubt that Isreali Arabs have had and have better conditions than thier brothers and sisters in other parts of the arab world and in the west bank but they still claim that they are discriminated against and frankly they are not the "problem". The problem has been and still is the arabs being bullied, beaten, murdered and denied a living on the west bank and in gaza. When people are denied water, food and work because of laws and rules imposed by occupiers, then they are oppressed.. but of course Isreal is our "friend" so that cant be true!

In otherwords, the Israelis have enhanced the conditions for the Muslims in their land, and said Muslims refuse to accept this, instead attempting to destroy Israel to create a country with no historic or legal validity.

Again you go by the doctrine that people have a right to land if they have hestorical ties to the area..a very very dangerous doctrine and do you really want to go there? But I agree they have enhanced th lives of muslims with in the 1948 borders, but outside they have not.

Conversely, the Kurds have been oppressed yet remained largely peaceful, hoping to one day reclaim the land which has always legitimately been their property, so that they could create an independent Kurdistan.

Read above, and they have been far from peacefull. They have however been oppressed thats for sure, but then again so have so many other minorities in some degree or another.

Its also funny that the US backs the Kurds so much, considering thier main political parties are socialists in some degree or another (with the worst part being hardcore commies) and up to a few years ago were at war with each other.

I am not against Kurds getting thier "own land" but one has look at the consequences of such an act and compare it to the alternative. And frankly is giving a few million kurds thier own country worth the risk of all out war because of this? I doubt very much that the muslims of middle and south Iraq will accept a kurdish state that has that amount of oil and that amount of arabs living among them. I doubt Iran will want such a nation as it will cause problems internaly, and the same goes for Turkey and Syria.

I am against the historical ties to an area is an automatic right to that area principle that many americans justify Isreal and now Kurdistan with.
 
PeteEU said:
Partly and the hypocritcal and double standard part. Its okay to use terrorists tactics as long as its the "good guys" and thier "friends" that are using them. Are terrorists not terrorists regardless who they attack or what thier motives are?

The PKK are not "good guys." They are a Marxist/terrorist organization that is labelled as such by both the US and EU. They have little support among the Kurds, unlike Arab groups who actually support these kind of radical groups.

Every country has its lunatics. Your country has the ETA, but it's certainly not true to say that the Basques support terrorism.

PeteEU said:
Some similarites and critical differences? They use bombs, murder and assasination too. They have bombed cafes, schools, buses and assinated people. This is terror is it not? The same that Isreal and other nations have been hit by no? Or is it not terror because the kurds "are our friends"? Its only a few weeks ago they bombed a tourist resort for peaksake.

"They" have done no such thing. The PKK did it. The fact that you automatically associate the PKK with all Kurds is racist, especially when most Kurds openly condemn the tactics of the PKK.

PeteEU said:
And arabs in the occupied west bank, gaza and other places are not suffering under the Isreali jaugernaut?

No. They're suffering under their own incompetent leadership.

PeteEU said:
While I agree that the Kurds have "suffered" in someways under Turkeys and other nations control, but so have other minorities and even the other parts of the population. Is it liberate all the oppressed people but only those living in non friendly areas of the planet policy?

We have to pick our battles. We can't liberate every oppressed group in the world, so what is wrong with focusing on friendly groups?

PeteEU said:
Tell that to the turks living in "kurdistan" part of Turkey, that have been hit by terror and assasination. And what is there to stop the Kurds preforming "ethnic cleansning" in the areas they control.. they after all are attemtping to do it in Iraq.

No they aren't. Do you have any proof of this? Northern Iraq is the only stable part of the country, and the Kurds aren't taking any organized vengeance on Arabs.

PeteEU said:
Ahh the old historical claim bullshit and double standard. If we allow more "minorities" to gain land and statehood based on some ancient historical fact, then we cant pick and choose. In Northern Iraq, in the area under Kurdish control, and claimed by Kurds, there are far more miniorites (who are being oppressed by the kurds as we speak) who have even more ancient claim to the area. And if we look away from that, what about American Indians.. want to give the US back to them, because they have exactly the same historical right to the whole of the US as the kurds or Jews have to thier lands by you own standard. There are the Aztec peoples of Mexico who can claim the whole of Mexico City as thier own by your standard, the remaining Incas can claim half of South America and so on. Do you really want to go that way..

It has very little to do with historical claims. The fact is, here and now, Kurds make up the majority of that region's people, they want independence, and they'd probably have a much better government than their Arab/Persian/Turkish neighbors.

PeteEU said:
I am not against Kurds getting thier "own land" but one has look at the consequences of such an act and compare it to the alternative. And frankly is giving a few million kurds thier own country worth the risk of all out war because of this?

In the short term, probably not. But it is something to strive for in the long term.

PeteEU said:
I doubt very much that the muslims of middle and south Iraq will accept a kurdish state that has that amount of oil and that amount of arabs living among them. I doubt Iran will want such a nation as it will cause problems internaly, and the same goes for Turkey and Syria.

Turkey is the only one of those that would really be willing/able to stop the Kurds from seceding from Iraq. Obviously the Iraqi Arabs are too busy fighting amongst themselves to stop the Kurds from seceding if they want to. Syria has little interest in gaining a new enemy in the region. And the Kurds feel some affinity for the Persians, so it's unlikely that the Iranian Kurds would try to secede.
 
Kandahar has put it, by in large, in far better terms than I could have. So rather the go in depth and respond to PeteEU's comment, I think I'll just second the majority of Kandahar's points.
 
The PKK are not "good guys." They are a Marxist/terrorist organization that is labelled as such by both the US and EU. They have little support among the Kurds, unlike Arab groups who actually support these kind of radical groups.

The PKK are not the only kurdish terror group, just the most known. And many of thier attacks were staged from Northern Iraq over the last decade.

Every country has its lunatics. Your country has the ETA, but it's certainly not true to say that the Basques support terrorism.

I aint from Spain but yes most Basques dont support the terror, but do support the end goal. And the debate has always been centered among other things around the fact that if the Basque region was given independance, then the terrorists would have won and shown terror works.

"They" have done no such thing. The PKK did it. The fact that you automatically associate the PKK with all Kurds is racist, especially when most Kurds openly condemn the tactics of the PKK.

Again, there are other kurdish terror groups than the PKK. Add to that the offical "police" forces and military forces of the different factions carrying out thier own justice.. thats terror too you know. Heck there are kurdish terror groups affliated with Al Q for peak sake. And you forget the infighting that went on for almost a decade under UN protection when Saddam was in power. In fact its only after the fall of Saddam that the 2 biggest kurdish political parties actually talk to each other (both socalists btw) but the old differences are still unresolved. Both have thier own "military forces".

While a huge majority of Kurds dont support terror, they do have terrorists living among them and do nothing to prevent the terror. This goes for muslims and arabs in general. They just want to live in peace and not be told what to do and how to do it by outsiders, but if we listen to the media and politicans these days, every arab and muslim are terrorists and blood thirsty.

No. They're suffering under their own incompetent leadership.

So over the last 50 years the arabs on the west bank and other occupied areas have been under thier own administration and security? News to the rest of the world. I guess that the wall being built is made by the arabs and not the jews, and that the jewish settlements in the area were okayed by the people who owned the land and the arabs living the area. That the water is fairly divided between jew and arab and that there has been no attempts to "steal land" by the Isreali goverment... but hey its all the arabs fault!

No they aren't. Do you have any proof of this? Northern Iraq is the only stable part of the country, and the Kurds aren't taking any organized vengeance on Arabs.

There is plenty of proof out there. Several human rights organisations have commented on the reverse ethinic cleansing going on and the Assyrians and Turkomen (who have a bigger claim to the some areas than the Kurds) have been complaining of discrimination and ethnic cleansing. Just google it. They call it reverse ethnic cleansing.. but basicly its just ethnic cleansing, just not as ugly as the Bosnian type.. yet.

And yes its stable compared to other parts of Iraq but it is also the single biggest powdercake in the country. Kirkuk is the center of this mess with 5+ ethnic groups claiming soverignty over the city and the billions of gallons of oil under it.

We have to pick our battles. We can't liberate every oppressed group in the world, so what is wrong with focusing on friendly groups?

Ah I see what you mean... yea picking our battles.. the same friends we had in Afganistan that later turned on us? The same friends we had in Iran and who then turned on us? Face it supporting oppressive regimes or people just because they at some point in time happen to be on the same wave length as us on some issue, does not mean its a good idea... history shows us this. Either we stand by our principles of democracy and freedom without bending or breaking our own principles or we are no better than the corrupt and dictatorial nations we want to get rid off.

It has very little to do with historical claims. The fact is, here and now, Kurds make up the majority of that region's people, they want independence, and they'd probably have a much better government than their Arab/Persian/Turkish neighbors.

Thats the only thing you said that actually makes sense.. Yes they are a majority (large at that in some parts) and that and ONLY that has any bearing on if they gain nationhood. A ancient claim is bullshit as it was in Isreal case. The Assyrians have more right to part of the area than the Kurds, but they are a minority.

In the short term, probably not. But it is something to strive for in the long term.

I agree, but we talking about generations and only if the area can remain stable, which dont look too good with all those petrodollars in the ground. No matter what, it will take lots of cooperation between ethnic groups and that is gonna be hella hard considering the obsiticals.

Turkey is the only one of those that would really be willing/able to stop the Kurds from seceding from Iraq. Obviously the Iraqi Arabs are too busy fighting amongst themselves to stop the Kurds from seceding if they want to. Syria has little interest in gaining a new enemy in the region. And the Kurds feel some affinity for the Persians, so it's unlikely that the Iranian Kurds would try to secede.

Turkey will block any kurdish nation formation. Its only been the US troops that has prevented Turkey for all out invading the north. Syria will do what it always does, keep its minorities down, however I would not be supprised if the Syrians and Turks could find a common ground on this issue. As for Iran.. they have had thier own Kurdish rebels to deal with since the revolution and there is no love lost between those areas and Tehran. I doubt that Iran is interested in an Iraqi based Kurdistan, from which kurds can stage attacks on Iran just as they have staged attacks on Turkey for the last decade.

Finally the Iraqies themselvs. There is a civil war going on between the muslims themselvs and I agree some what that the infighting might take focus off whats going up north, but there is no love lost between them and the Kurds. Time will only tell when and if they will turn on the kurds over all that oil up there.
 
To be honest I'm surprised the Kurds have waited this long to start the process of the break-up of Iraq.

Turkey will invade, that is an almost certainty. Remember though that Turkey is a NATO ally.
 
I posted some links about this a few days ago. You can find them here.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-iraq/14101-cant-they-all-just-get-along.html

Most interesting is the report by former U.S. Secretary of State James Baker. His report recommends the federalizing of Iraq. Essentially creating three semi-autonomous areas for the three major ethnic groups.

If the Kurds are attacked, what should the coalition in Iraq do?

I have no clue what should be done. As GarzaUK says, Turkey is a NATO member. However, Shia and Sunni might stop fighting long enough to defend the oil fields. Unity through collective strife?
 
Re: US Sells Out Iraqi Kurds

Kandahar said:
Unlike most Arab groups who openly support terrorism or are silent, the Kurds truly ARE opposed to terrorism. Yes, there have been some terrorist attacks carried out in their name in Turkey, but those attacks are roundly condemned by most Kurds. And there haven't been any attacks in a long time.

Every country has a few violent nuts. But they don't represent the majority viewpoint in Kurdistan.


A major terrorist organization (al-Ansar) maintained training camps in the Kurdish part of Iraq before the US war, ironically many conservatives point to it as evidence that Hussein supported terrorists when it was actually in the Kurdish controlled region.

Kurds are our "friends" only because they know that US military aid and support is the best whay to achieve their goal of seceeding from Iraq and taking the oil richest with them. Once they have achieved their goal of seceding from Iraq, they would start working on secession of the SE part of Turkey, which has been a real US ally, and US support for Turkey against the Kurdish "terrorists" will put the kurds at odd with the US. Then the US will be fighting some future kurdish bin Laden terrorist that we have previously supported with weapons and training.

Sound familiar? We never learn.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom