Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

[TheDemSocialist]

Throughout the modern history of Iraq, we have lived in denial. By we, I mean the Kurdish people, who comprise one-quarter of the country; the Arabs and other nationalities who make up the rest; and our friends around the world, who have been hoping that a functional, pluralistic nation could somehow, someday take hold.
As it was drawn from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire, Iraq is a conceptual failure, compelling peoples with little in common to share an uncertain future. It is time to acknowledge that the experiment has not worked. Iraq is a failed state, and our continued presence within it condemns us all to unending conflict and enmity.
Turmoil surrounds us. In the summer of 2014, the face of the nation was exposed when the Islamic State terrorist group seized a third of the country and a significant part of the border with Syria because the most credible institution in the land, the Iraqi army, failed to defend it. Eleven years after the tyranny of Saddam Hussein ended, Iraq was exposed for what it is: a country that cannot protect its people and can barely define its interests.


Compulsory coexistence has not worked. And that is why the Kurdistan region of Iraq will hold a referendum to establish a sovereign state, which would formalize a divorce from Baghdad and secure the area we now control as a homeland for the Kurdish people.

This move will not only offer hope to the Kurds; it will also bring certainty to a divided region. Since the fall of Hussein, we have proved ourselves to be reliable allies to many of our neighbors. We are a bedrock in the fight against the Islamic State, hosting militaries from at least a dozen nations and making tremendous sacrifices to liberate Arab territories from the juggernaut that imperils us all.

Read more @: Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

What say you? Do you think the Kurds in northern Iraq should move forward with complete independence from Iraq?
I may disagree with the KDP (the ruling party in Northern Iraq (part of Kurdistan)) mainly because of their hostile actions with the PYD, YPG, PKK, but I do believe that Kurdistan in Northern Iraq should vote for complete independence from Iraq. The Kurds have shown that they are good partner when it comes to military affairs and protection of different sects of the population, but they have also been getting screwed economically by Baghdad. I hope the referendum moves forward.

 

[Paleocon]

Read more @: Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

What say you? Do you think the Kurds in northern Iraq should move forward with complete independence from Iraq?
I may disagree with the KDP (the ruling party in Northern Iraq (part of Kurdistan)) mainly because of their hostile actions with the PYD, YPG, PKK, but I do believe that Kurdistan in Northern Iraq should vote for complete independence from Iraq. The Kurds have shown that they are good partner when it comes to military affairs and protection of different sects of the population, but they have also been getting screwed economically by Baghdad. I hope the referendum moves forward. [/FONT][/COLOR]

The central government should lock the seditious insurrectionists up, and not allow the referendum to move forward.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The central government should lock the seditious insurrectionists up, and not allow the referendum to move forward.

If that were universally correct, the USA would not exist, and all of our founding fathers would have been locked up as seditious insurrectionists.

 

[cpwill]

Read more @: Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

What say you? Do you think the Kurds in northern Iraq should move forward with complete independence from Iraq?
I may disagree with the KDP (the ruling party in Northern Iraq (part of Kurdistan)) mainly because of their hostile actions with the PYD, YPG, PKK, but I do believe that Kurdistan in Northern Iraq should vote for complete independence from Iraq. The Kurds have shown that they are good partner when it comes to military affairs and protection of different sects of the population, but they have also been getting screwed economically by Baghdad. I hope the referendum moves forward. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Well.

That makes things complicated.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Read more @: Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

What say you? Do you think the Kurds in northern Iraq should move forward with complete independence from Iraq?
I may disagree with the KDP (the ruling party in Northern Iraq (part of Kurdistan)) mainly because of their hostile actions with the PYD, YPG, PKK, but I do believe that Kurdistan in Northern Iraq should vote for complete independence from Iraq. The Kurds have shown that they are good partner when it comes to military affairs and protection of different sects of the population, but they have also been getting screwed economically by Baghdad. I hope the referendum moves forward. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Any referendum for self determination of the Kurds and establishment of Kurdistan should not be limited to Iraq, but also include the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey, and Iran as well.

EDIT: However, to get an example of how this may work out, just look to the India/Pakistan split and how well they get along, and how Pakistan (the Kurdistan example in this scenario) is so unstable.

 

[Paleocon]

If that were universally correct, the USA would not exist, and all of our founding fathers would have been locked up as seditious insurrectionists.

Yes, this is true.

 

[cpwill]

Any referendum for self determination of the Kurds and establishment of Kurdistan should not be limited to Iraq, but also include the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey, and Iran as well.

Turkey would have a cow. They may be willing to accept an independent KRG because the KRG has a long history of rivalry with other Kurdish elements that they are less fond of... but including the Kurdish areas in Turkey or northern Syria? They'd go ballistic.

 

[Sherman123]

Read more @: Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

What say you? Do you think the Kurds in northern Iraq should move forward with complete independence from Iraq?
I may disagree with the KDP (the ruling party in Northern Iraq (part of Kurdistan)) mainly because of their hostile actions with the PYD, YPG, PKK, but I do believe that Kurdistan in Northern Iraq should vote for complete independence from Iraq. The Kurds have shown that they are good partner when it comes to military affairs and protection of different sects of the population, but they have also been getting screwed economically by Baghdad. I hope the referendum moves forward. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Yes. I've been to Iraqi Kurdistan several times and I'm always overwhelmed at the progress they've made towards building a modern state: economically, politically, and culturally. They have some significant hurdles to overcome but I believe they are extremely deserving of independence and that an independent Kurdistan, at peace with Turkey, would be phenomenal for the region. However they will never make moves towards independence without firm US and Turkish assurances. Surprisingly I think its possible that at this juncture the Erdogan government would be more amenable to that than Washington under the Obama administration. The military, economic, and political ties between the Turkish state and the KRG have become extremely close with Turkish troops garrisoned in the KRG and the existence of close cooperation on Syria and Iraq.

The major variable here would be what the domestic political situation is like with regards to the PKK and whether a formal and reliable agreement can be secured between the KRG (and its two principle parties) and Ankara to crack down on the PKK. Thus far that doesn't seem to be too problematic especially given their dual views on the Syrian Kurdish issue.

 

[cpwill]

Yes. I've been to Iraqi Kurdistan several times and I'm always overwhelmed at the progress they've made towards building a modern state: economically, politically, and culturally. They have some significant hurdles to overcome but I believe they are extremely deserving of independence and that an independent Kurdistan, at peace with Turkey, would be phenomenal for the region. However they will never make moves towards independence without firm US and Turkish assurances. Surprisingly I think its possible that at this juncture the Erdogan government would be more amenable to that than Washington under the Obama administration. The military, economic, and political ties between the Turkish state and the KRG have become extremely close with Turkish troops garrisoned in the KRG and the existence of close cooperation on Syria and Iraq.

The major variable here would be what the domestic political situation is like with regards to the PKK and whether a formal and reliable agreement can be secured between the KRG (and its two principle parties) and Ankara to crack down on the PKK. Thus far that doesn't seem to be too problematic especially given their dual views on the Syrian Kurdish issue.

My question becomes - what does this mean in terms of limitations on Authorities and Practical mutual support for our operations there. What happens when our people in and around Erbil are in another country from our people in Baghdad, with whom they may or may not have good relations? How doe the PMF react to this?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Turkey would have a cow. They may be willing to accept an independent KRG because the KRG has a long history of rivalry with other Kurdish elements that they are less fond of... but including the Kurdish areas in Turkey or northern Syria? They'd go ballistic.

Of course they would. Turkey and Kurdish groups like the PKK could never live together in peace, even if each had their own land with a definitive border between the two. There's too much blood been spilt by both sides at this point, and their ideological differences are incompatible with mutual peace.

However, Iraq should not be expected to have the entire burden of the establishment of Kurdistan as a legitimate state put solely upon them. Yet, the Kurds in Iraq are the most passive of the multitude of Kurdish groups that sprung up over the last few decades. I've worked with them, and some of the groups in Iran and Syria. We tried to stay away from the Turkish Kurd population for what should be obvious political reasons (although limited ex-pat training was done in Iraq, SA, Jordan, and Kuwait). The Iranian and Syrian Kurds seem to me to have a lot in common, but those groups have Communism in common with the PKK and YPG and a few others. The Christian Kurds are the outliers, but are the most passive of them all, with the Communist groups being the most militant.

Just my observation.

 

[Fishking]

Any referendum for self determination of the Kurds and establishment of Kurdistan should not be limited to Iraq, but also include the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey, and Iran as well.

EDIT: However, to get an example of how this may work out, just look to the India/Pakistan split and how well they get along, and how Pakistan (the Kurdistan example in this scenario) is so unstable.

You beat me to it as I was also going to bring up that more than just some territory from Iraq should be included. I'll disagree that it would be similar to how Pakistan turned out. The Kurdish area, especially in northern Iraq has always been the more stable area of the country. If it weren't for all the turmoil around them, their area would be a very advanced and safe place to be.

 

[Beaudreaux]

You beat me to it as I was also going to bring up that more than just some territory from Iraq should be included. I'll disagree that it would be similar to how Pakistan turned out. The Kurdish area, especially in northern Iraq has always been the more stable area of the country. If it weren't for all the turmoil around them, their area would be a very advanced and safe place to be.

The Kurds in Northern Iraq, in my opinion, have the best chance of creating the most stable country in that part of the world, to rival modern Jordan. And, they would not have to do so by edict from the crown as Jordan has to do. They could potentially be what the US had hoped for Iraq as a whole - to be a secular government in a peaceful country where the people have their personal, natural, and human rights protected.

 

[treehouse]

No need to go into a debate about PYD(PKK) terrorists.

 

[Fishking]

The Kurds in Northern Iraq, in my opinion, have the best chance of creating the most stable country in that part of the world, to rival modern Jordan. And, they would not have to do so by edict from the crown as Jordan has to do. They could potentially be what the US had hoped for Iraq as a whole - to be a secular government in a peaceful country where the people have their personal, natural, and human rights protected.

Agreed. I just got back from spending a month in Jordan. Nice people and they keep things pretty secure. Never got into a situation where the hairs on the back of my neck stood up but we stayed mostly in Amman. As much as I dislike monarchies, I wouldn't wish to get rid of that one for a good long time. Comparatively, the Jordanian monarchy is probably the most moderate in the region.

 

[shrubnose]

I'll be amazed if Turkey buys into this idea.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

The central government should lock the seditious insurrectionists up, and not allow the referendum to move forward.

Do you apply this same type of mindset to the American Revolution?

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Any referendum for self determination of the Kurds and establishment of Kurdistan should not be limited to Iraq, but also include the Kurdish areas in Syria, Turkey, and Iran as well.

EDIT: However, to get an example of how this may work out, just look to the India/Pakistan split and how well they get along, and how Pakistan (the Kurdistan example in this scenario) is so unstable.

Interesting thing is that the Kurds in Syria are going to hold a referendum for a autonomous but not independent state in Rojava (Northern Syria) soon. It will be a step towards independence but it will not be an independent state. If passes on popular vote then Rojava would have status like currently Kurdish Iraq.

 

[treehouse]

In June 2014, Human Rights Watch (HRW) released a 107-page report and said PYD was arresting PYD's opponents, abusing in custody, using child ''soldiers'' and excessive force to quell political protests.

Since 2014 PYD has also been arresting Kurds, Kurdish soldiers (1 brigadier general, 3 colonels, 8 mil. officers) who used to be in Assad army before the conflict. They left the army, and started to fight against Assad; however, They were arrested by PYD. Here is the names: B.Gen. Muhammed Ali Khalil, Colonel Muhammed Haitham İbrahim, Colonel Hasan Owusu, Colonel Muhammed Keli Hayr, first lieutenant Shawki Osman, Major Behzad Naso, Chief officer Hüseyin Bekir, first lieutenant Adnan Dışki.

In 2015 February, HRW again released a report and said ''Kurdish forces have confined thousands of Arabs in ‘security zones’ in areas of northern Iraq that they have captured since August 2014''...“Kurdish forces for months barred Arabs displaced by fighting from returning to their homes … while permitting Kurds to return to those areas and even to move into homes of Arabs who fled.''

These are the Kurds who are portreyed by some like ''angels'', awarded by lands who are stolen from local people of Syria or Iraq as reports showed.

 

[joG]

Read more @: Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

What say you? Do you think the Kurds in northern Iraq should move forward with complete independence from Iraq?
I may disagree with the KDP (the ruling party in Northern Iraq (part of Kurdistan)) mainly because of their hostile actions with the PYD, YPG, PKK, but I do believe that Kurdistan in Northern Iraq should vote for complete independence from Iraq. The Kurds have shown that they are good partner when it comes to military affairs and protection of different sects of the population, but they have also been getting screwed economically by Baghdad. I hope the referendum moves forward. [/FONT][/COLOR]

That is my take on the Kurds too. They also seem to have the best grip how politics can help a society. The rub is that Iran, Turkey, Bagdad, Assad's part of Syria and Iran are against a free Kurdistan to the point of war.

 

[Paleocon]

Do you apply this same type of mindset to the American Revolution?

Yes..

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Yes..

So you dont think the US should be an independent nation? Put us back under the authority of the crown?

 

[TheDemSocialist]

That is my take on the Kurds too. They also seem to have the best grip how politics can help a society. The rub is that Iran, Turkey, Bagdad, Assad's part of Syria and Iran are against a free Kurdistan to the point of war.

Syria recently, mostly since the start of the Civl war, has been sending mix signals to the Kurds when it comes to autonomy.

 

[faithful_servant]

Read more @: Kurdistan deserves an amicable divorce from Baghdad

What say you? Do you think the Kurds in northern Iraq should move forward with complete independence from Iraq?
I may disagree with the KDP (the ruling party in Northern Iraq (part of Kurdistan)) mainly because of their hostile actions with the PYD, YPG, PKK, but I do believe that Kurdistan in Northern Iraq should vote for complete independence from Iraq. The Kurds have shown that they are good partner when it comes to military affairs and protection of different sects of the population, but they have also been getting screwed economically by Baghdad. I hope the referendum moves forward. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Why single out Iraq when Turkey, Syria and Iran all occupy about as big a part as Iraq (well maybe not Syria, but it has it's piece of the pie)??

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Why single out Iraq when Turkey, Syria and Iran all occupy about as big a part as Iraq (well maybe not Syria, but it has it's piece of the pie)??
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Cuz the present situation for the whole of Kurdistan to be granted full independence is unrealistic.

 

[joG]

Syria recently, mostly since the start of the Civl war, has been sending mix signals to the Kurds when it comes to autonomy.

Yes. I had the feeling that Assad was trying to disunite the alliance.