Kleptocracy and the Threat to Democracy.

[Evilroddy]

To all:

Kleptocracy is the capture of the institutions of governance in a state by a minority elite (oligarchs) in order to allow and abet the theft of public resources and public monies by those domestic and other international oligarchs for their own enrichment and the growth of their own power in that "captured state".

Kleptocracy is rooted in the adoration of money and the belief that the more money a person (real or legal) accumulates, the higher their social status and value to a society.

In order to allow the kleptocracy to grow/continue, the institutions of governance and the legal system must be undermined and suborned to serve the interests of the oligarchs. Thus the Rule of Law is weakened or destroyed by a rising level of kleptocracy in any state.

As the general public will not knowingly comply with a regime which is devoted to kleptocracy and the theft of its public resources and public monies in government coffers, the means of public information disemination (media), of education (public and private) and of public debate must be captured and controlled by the international, kleptocratic oligarchy in order to capture and control of the terms of public debate.

In a world where international independent journalism and international, peer-to-peer communications exists through social media, such styles of communication must be suppressed for oligarchic kleptocracy to take root and grow, leading to the rise of increasingly intolerant authoritarianism in states being captured or already captured by kleptocratic elites.

Information still flows in the absence of totalitarian authoritarianism and so publics in democracies can still be reasonably well-informed and use such information to vote out agents of kleptocracy and to fight kleptocracy's growth domestically and internationally. Therefore the the idea and the processes of democracy are dangerous to the existence and growth of kleptocracy. Therefore a state's democracy itself must be captured or destroyed by domestic and international kleptocracy as any democracy is a threat to the oligarchs and the kleptocrats who benefit from kleptocracy. Thus kleptocrats view democracy as the prime enemy of kleptocracy and will do anything possible to destroy democracy whereever democracy exists.

Kleptocracy may seem to exist in distinct states but its mechanisms and nature are fundamentally international. It needs international mechanisms for it to be established, to grow and to become ascendant in any state.

Kleptocracy depends on the cooperation/collusion of international financial institutions to off-shore and hide huge amounts of stolen money and to camouflage the true ownership of resources and the corporations which control such resources from being discovered by those trying to resist kleptocracy. Secrecy is the prime tool of kleptocracy and its colluding financial agents.

Invisible, off-shore accounts and trusts to hide money and opaque networks of company ownership shield kleptocracy and harm/thwart states' efforts to combat kleptocracy. Secrecy is paramount.

Kleptocracy is an international force, not a national one which is limited to one state or several states working in kleptocratic cooperation. However the institutions and judicial bodies designed to fight it are limited to single-state or multilateral-state jurisdictions, which are dwarfed by the global reach and influence of kleptocracies and their cooperating/colluding allies in international finance. Thus kleptocracy is more powerful than individual or groups of states trying to combat it. While kleptocratic countries exist, kleptocracy itself is an international network of oligarchic power and finances which owes no one country allegience or loyalty. It is a fluid force which moves internationally to advance its gains and to flee its few successful foes.

Continued next post.

 

[Evilroddy]

Continued from the previous post.

The notion that kleptocracies exist "over there" but not "here" is an illusion. The illusion is also well served by the notion that "our" country or financial elites may aid and abet kleptocracy but our country is not itself a kleptocracy. That is false. Kleptocracy captures institutions of states for its own use only after it has captured enough influence and power to stop that state from moving against it without great cost to the state, if that state tries to fight back. Thus the states which claim to be true democracies of some flavour, which claim to follow the Rule of Law, which claim to have robust legal systems capable of taking on corruption and oligarchy and which claim to have robust and effective financial controls designed to fight creeping kleptocracy both domestically and internationally are often already captured or partially captured and are thus fooling themselves.

Some grist for the debating-mill:



The struggle between the forces of authoritarian kleptocracy and the forces of democracy and the Rule of Law will be the biggest struggle of the 21st Century and right now democracy and the Rule of Law are losing.

Debate, please and suggest solutions for fighting kleptocracy and its colluding financial allies, both in our midst.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[multivita-man]

Good topic - thanks for posting it.

Lots to cover in your post but the part I'll focus on is the global export of kleptocracy. Political ideology is exported, with malevolent ideology (communism, fascism, kleptocracy, etc) being exported in the same way that benevolent ideology (democracy) is. Ideologues need allies because they need ways to finance what they're doing, whether it's oppression or sharing power with all people. That is hard to do is hard to do in isolation.

What Russia's invasion of Ukraine is making clear in my mind is that the global order, which has mostly been dominated by Western liberal democracy, is about to breakup into two major axes: the liberal democratic and mostly free market capitalist world on one hand, and the anti-democratic and 'state capitalist' world on the other. By 'state capitalist', I mean that there are aspects of the free market that are in play, like consumer choice, individual brands, and so forth, but capitalisms fruits are picked first by the state (see China, for example). Some might also call this 'fascism' I suppose.

We're heading into a new cold war all over again but unlike last time, the opposition is more competitive. Communism was an economic model that was doomed to fail from the start, but state capitalism can actually compete with free market capitalism, even if imperfectly. China already in many regards has the world's largest economy. It's already the most important trading partner to a majority of the world's nations and that position will only grow to become more dominant over time. As China's influence grows, it will actively seek to undermine democratic systems, as will other undemocratic countries like Russia (India probably will cease to be a democracy soon as well).

The only way I see the world remaining democratic is by democratic countries banding together through strong geopolitical alliances. That's why the 'America first' movement. If we self-isolate, we're handing the world to China on a silver platter. That's exactly what they want, for the US and EU to split up so that they can use their sheer size and power to dominate each country one by one.

 

[Evilroddy]

To all:

Some background reading to illustrate that kleptocracy is not a foreign problem but very much a right-here-right-now problem.

https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/the_kleptocrats_playbook_final.pdf

How American Kleptocracy Works

Review: Casey Michel's book, “American Kleptocracy,” tells the tale of US financial secrecy via two of the world’s great kleptocrats.

www.justsecurity.org

The United States of Dirty Money

How landlocked South Dakota became one of the world’s hottest destinations for offshore funds.

www.theatlantic.com

South Dakota is just one of America's ground-zero spots for kleptocracy to take root. It's not an over-there problem. It's a right-here-right-now problem.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[bluesmoke]

The kleptos are already in control of America regardless of what semblance of democracy there may be. States are already balkanized, at least regionally. There's still a bit of that nasty freedom of the press thing and free speech going on. It's the politics that's insane. Joe Manchin, a Democon, kills the Child Tax Credit and WV Dem voters start shifting to the GOP, who are in lockstep against the credit. Swimming into the safety of the shark's jaws. Go figure.

 

[code1211]

To all:

Some background reading to illustrate that kleptocracy is not a foreign problem but very much a right-here-right-now problem.

https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/the_kleptocrats_playbook_final.pdf

How American Kleptocracy Works

Review: Casey Michel's book, “American Kleptocracy,” tells the tale of US financial secrecy via two of the world’s great kleptocrats.

www.justsecurity.org

The United States of Dirty Money

How landlocked South Dakota became one of the world’s hottest destinations for offshore funds.

www.theatlantic.com

South Dakota is just one of America's ground-zero spots for kleptocracy to take root. It's not an over-there problem. It's a right-here-right-now problem.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

This general line of thinking seems like a very important part of the puzzle as to the "why and how" employed by the lying thieves to commit the theft they commit.

I have long held an undefined contempt of the Globalists in our government. Your description of the connection between for Globalists and Kleptocratic theft is another part of the puzzle that helps to explain and define the Kleptocrats.

Anyone who is actually aware of what is actually happening knows that there is little or no difference between the lying thieves from the two major American political parties.

The two major parties, united quite obviously as halves of the single party of Kleptocrats, are all deviously devoted to the overriding goal of theft and to agreeing on the ongoing lies they employ to cover up the theft.

About half of all monies said to be spent on anything by the Federal Government are stolen, purely and simply and obviously.

Calling out the obvious connections between the precepts of Globalism and Kleptocratic theft is eye opening.

Good thoughts!

 

[code1211]

To all:

Some background reading to illustrate that kleptocracy is not a foreign problem but very much a right-here-right-now problem.

https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/the_kleptocrats_playbook_final.pdf

How American Kleptocracy Works

Review: Casey Michel's book, “American Kleptocracy,” tells the tale of US financial secrecy via two of the world’s great kleptocrats.

www.justsecurity.org

The United States of Dirty Money

How landlocked South Dakota became one of the world’s hottest destinations for offshore funds.

www.theatlantic.com

South Dakota is just one of America's ground-zero spots for kleptocracy to take root. It's not an over-there problem. It's a right-here-right-now problem.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Regarding the money kept in Trusts in South Dakota, if the money was already ill-gotten, then it was.

The simple act of keeping it there is only the simple act of keeping it there.

Based only on the source of the article, "The Atlantic", it is tempting to assume that the article is more of a hit piece than actual reporting.

 

[multivita-man]

To all:

Some background reading to illustrate that kleptocracy is not a foreign problem but very much a right-here-right-now problem.

https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/the_kleptocrats_playbook_final.pdf

How American Kleptocracy Works

Review: Casey Michel's book, “American Kleptocracy,” tells the tale of US financial secrecy via two of the world’s great kleptocrats.

www.justsecurity.org

The United States of Dirty Money

How landlocked South Dakota became one of the world’s hottest destinations for offshore funds.

www.theatlantic.com

South Dakota is just one of America's ground-zero spots for kleptocracy to take root. It's not an over-there problem. It's a right-here-right-now problem.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Not sure I'd go quite so far as to suggest that North Dakota or Delaware are examples of American kleptocracy. Although tax havens definitely enable kleptocratic oligarchs and plutocrats, there's nothing inherently criminal about a tax haven.

Kleptocracy is what the Trump administration almost normalized. See Scott Pruitt, for example. Or see the companies that applied for assistance under the very loosely regulated/enforced CARES Act. That's kleptocracy at work, and if Trump returns, that's the return of American kleptocracy, and the end of American democracy.

The ethics scandals that eventually forced Scott Pruitt to resign

Pruitt was accused of a litany of corrupt practices, any one of which would have ended the career of an ordinary politician

www.theguardian.com

 

[Doppelgangirl]

To all:

Some background reading to illustrate that kleptocracy is not a foreign problem but very much a right-here-right-now problem.

https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/the_kleptocrats_playbook_final.pdf

How American Kleptocracy Works

Review: Casey Michel's book, “American Kleptocracy,” tells the tale of US financial secrecy via two of the world’s great kleptocrats.

www.justsecurity.org

The United States of Dirty Money

How landlocked South Dakota became one of the world’s hottest destinations for offshore funds.

www.theatlantic.com

South Dakota is just one of America's ground-zero spots for kleptocracy to take root. It's not an over-there problem. It's a right-here-right-now problem.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

IIRC, Delaware is similar to South Dakota in that regard…

 

[Doppelgangirl]

Regarding the money kept in Trusts in South Dakota, if the money was already ill-gotten, then it was.

The simple act of keeping it there is only the simple act of keeping it there.

Based only on the source of the article, "The Atlantic", it is tempting to assume that the article is more of a hit piece than actual reporting.

I think it’s worth looking into, though. It seems like every time I try to “follow the money,” the shadiest ones end up in Sioux Falls,SD, DE, or somewhere in FL between Melbourne and Miami. It really is uncanny.

 

[OrphanSlug]

It is an interested subject when considering what causes Kleptocracy, which some would consider runaway vulture capitalism whereas others may look at it as one of the many side effects of political duopoly. Regardless of which direction one may lean on the subject it could be argued quite well this is the reality of a modern day governmental mixed with wealth based aristocracy.

But there is another matter to consider on this one, human nature.

Across all of history, damn near without exception, the accumulation of wealth in all of its forms has ended up with some degree of association with the control over resources, property, and ultimately people. Plenty of government types in existence today back to the earliest recordings of human history suggest the exact same thing, status ends up linked to wealth no matter how that wealth was defined. We could be talking about the earlies formations of city and nations, we could be talking about far east cultures history to current or more western ideologies history to current. No government type, no mixture of government ideological tenets, no other social or religious ideologies are immune to that link of authority and wealth with social ranking.

We have plenty of examples history to current of very insane people in control of nations, wealth, and resources starting world wars and/or responsible for some of the worst atrocities of human history, and we have plenty of examples of very wealthy people doing anything from dubious things to real criminal activity once the fight for position in a society really sets in. Same is true of those in many positions of ideological position. Go anywhere across the greater middle east region history to current and you see some form of Kleptocracy. And when you get down to it there is no spot anywhere on the globe where somewhere from history to current some form of Kleptocracy creeps in.

All of that is my way of saying Kleptocracy is really just a combination of greed (defined as excessive want) and hubris (defined as excessive pride.)

Which is where borderline to outright criminal activity in the accumulation of wealth and position in society seem to be hand in hand. All things considered when climbing the social ladder via greed and hubris then the other ills of society tend to be there no matter the prevailing ideologies and government types happen to be present.

You may even be able to argue that most criminal activity including the devaluation of human life in any regard is based on two extreme results. The absence of means (or being poor) as a catalyst to doing something criminal and the abundance of means (or in excess) because of means to avoid punishment for doing something criminal in the want to climb that ladder of merging wealth with social and/or governmental power.

Put it to you this way... there is no real example of a large group of people under some form of governance and/or nation without one or more people claiming, seizing, and/or controlling for themselves far more than is available or afforded to those under them.

We can claim some western governments and ideologies are otherwise, but not really.

Some form of wealth has always been in bed with some form of social and/or governmental order. Always.

 

[Evilroddy]

IIRC, Delaware is similar to South Dakota in that regard…

Doppelgangirl:

Yes, S. Dakota was just one example. I linked to it because it was mentioned in the excellent video I linked to in post #2. I might have focused on Ohio where a Ukrainian Oligarch is using his pilfered wealth and is buying up significant chunks of the Rust-belt in the state. He is changing the state and not always in positive ways.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[multivita-man]

Put it to you this way... there is no real example of a large group of people under some form of governance and/or nation without one or more people claiming, seizing, and/or controlling for themselves far more than is available or afforded to those under them.

We can claim some western governments and ideologies are otherwise, but not really.

Some form of wealth has always been in bed with some form of social and/or governmental order. Always.

The difference is in terms of degree. Liberal democratic countries that value transparency in the name of public interest and who have more egalitarian values tend to have less corruption than those that don't operate this way. That doesn't mean there's no corruption or inequality, but that there's greater accountability.

I'm generalizing but liberal democratic countries, to varying degrees, value transparency, accountability of public servants, free and fair electoral outcomes, and strong public institutions that can take regulate corrosive political influences. They are also egalitarian, not in the sense that government should exist to guarantee the same standard of living for all but rather to ensure that people who are disadvantaged still have opportunities for socioeconomic mobility.

Relative to our political allies, the U.S. has seen a marked decline in governmental transparency. We lack accountability of public servants - still not so much as a single criminal charge of a public official for the January 6th riot more than a year later. We're also clearly not a very egalitarian society, with some of the worst wealth inequality among modern developed nations. Over time, extreme inequality leads to class disparities that become hard to ignore and increasing the likelihood that political factions become less cooperative and more confrontational.

 

[Evilroddy]

Good topic - thanks for posting it.

Lots to cover in your post but the part I'll focus on is the global export of kleptocracy. Political ideology is exported, with malevolent ideology (communism, fascism, kleptocracy, etc) being exported in the same way that benevolent ideology (democracy) is. Ideologues need allies because they need ways to finance what they're doing, whether it's oppression or sharing power with all people. That is hard to do is hard to do in isolation.

multivita:

Kleptocracy is not really an ideology, it is an insatiable appetite which will not be constrained by law. The ideologies of kleptocracy are if anything greed and impunity. The export of kleptocracy is not necessarily done by overtly kleptocratic governments or states. For example the rapid growth of the Russian oligarchs was due to the waves of deregulation and privatisation of public assets into private hands heavily supported by the USA the U.K. and the IMF in the 1990's. America, the IMF and the U.K. were also big drivers in the shift from totalitarian communism to authoritarian state-capitalism which created a new generation of oligarchs who went on to form a kleptocracy in the Peoples' Republic of China. A variation of the same process changed capitalism in Taiwan from corrupt small-c capitalism to oligarchic state-capitalism and corporatism. The same argument can be made for South Korea, for Ukraine, and for India.

What Russia's invasion of Ukraine is making clear in my mind is that the global order, which has mostly been dominated by Western liberal democracy, is about to breakup into two major axes: the liberal democratic and mostly free market capitalist world on one hand, and the anti-democratic and 'state capitalist' world on the other. By 'state capitalist', I mean that there are aspects of the free market that are in play, like consumer choice, individual brands, and so forth, but capitalisms fruits are picked first by the state (see China, for example). Some might also call this 'fascism' I suppose.

I agree about your described schism but I think the schism will be about appearances and not about substance. The two blocs will both be kleptocratic, they will just approach the theft and the public perceptions of the thieving differently. Tweedism, managed top-down democracy, mass media control and weakened judiciaries combined with disaster capitalism and war-waging will be the tools of one bloc of kleptocrats while authoritarianism, totalitarianism, illiberal legal systems and overt state coercion of those being robbed plus war-waging will characterise the other bloc. The result will be a divide which is based on window-dressing rather than eliminating the substance of kleptocracy.

We're heading into a new cold war all over again but unlike last time, the opposition is more competitive. Communism was an economic model that was doomed to fail from the start, but state capitalism can actually compete with free market capitalism, even if imperfectly. China already in many regards has the world's largest economy. It's already the most important trading partner to a majority of the world's nations and that position will only grow to become more dominant over time. As China's influence grows, it will actively seek to undermine democratic systems, as will other undemocratic countries like Russia (India probably will cease to be a democracy soon as well).

I am not so sure about that. The engines of kleptocracy are well established in the liberal, democratic and capitalist states of the world as well as in the authoritarian, totalitarian and state-capitalist states where theft is more overt and thus more obvious.

The only way I see the world remaining democratic is by democratic countries banding together through strong geopolitical alliances. That's why the 'America first' movement. If we self-isolate, we're handing the world to China on a silver platter. That's exactly what they want, for the US and EU to split up so that they can use their sheer size and power to dominate each country one by one.

Agreed, but first the liberal, democratic and capitalist countries have to root out the kleptocratic infrastructures within themselves and impose ruthless transparency to up-root the agents of oligarchic kleptocracy before looking outwards. Without that house-cleaning the struggle will just be a turf war between two kleptocratic consortia to pillage the losing bloc by the victorious bloc.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

Not sure I'd go quite so far as to suggest that North Dakota or Delaware are examples of American kleptocracy. Although tax havens definitely enable kleptocratic oligarchs and plutocrats, there's nothing inherently criminal about a tax haven.

Kleptocracy is what the Trump administration almost normalized. See Scott Pruitt, for example. Or see the companies that applied for assistance under the very loosely regulated/enforced CARES Act. That's kleptocracy at work, and if Trump returns, that's the return of American kleptocracy, and the end of American democracy.

The ethics scandals that eventually forced Scott Pruitt to resign

Pruitt was accused of a litany of corrupt practices, any one of which would have ended the career of an ordinary politician

www.theguardian.com

multivita:

See post #12 for why I included it in my sources.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[OrphanSlug]

The difference is in terms of degree. Liberal democratic countries that value transparency in the name of public interest and who have more egalitarian values tend to have less corruption than those that don't operate this way. That doesn't mean there's no corruption or inequality, but that there's greater accountability.

I'm generalizing but liberal democratic countries, to varying degrees, value transparency, accountability of public servants, free and fair electoral outcomes, and strong public institutions that can take regulate corrosive political influences. They are also egalitarian, not in the sense that government should exist to guarantee the same standard of living for all but rather to ensure that people who are disadvantaged still have opportunities for socioeconomic mobility.

Relative to our political allies, the U.S. has seen a marked decline in governmental transparency. We lack accountability of public servants - still not so much as a single criminal charge of a public official for the January 6th riot more than a year later. We're also clearly not a very egalitarian society, with some of the worst wealth inequality among modern developed nations. Over time, extreme inequality leads to class disparities that become hard to ignore and increasing the likelihood that political factions become less cooperative and more confrontational.

That comes off more as what you want it to be like, but we have no real evidence that "liberal democratic countries" are all that better at this. Perhaps it would help if you could name a few nations where wealth was truly divorced from political power and influence.

The rest of your post proves my point far more than yours, unfortunately because this is not quite something to be happy to be right about.

 

[multivita-man]

That comes off more as what you want it to be like, but we have no real evidence that "liberal democratic countries" are all that better at this. Perhaps it would help if you could name a few nations where wealth was truly divorced from political power and influence.

The rest of your post proves my point far more than yours, unfortunately because this is not quite something to be happy to be right about.

No, not really. Nobody's denying that there are kleptocrats and authoritarians in a liberal democratic system. The difference is that the institutions in a liberal democratic system prevent them from becoming an all-out kleptocracy, which is almost always authoritarian out of necessity to keep the scam going.

It's ridiculous to argue that Western Europe is as kleptocratic as, say, Russia or China, both of which are closed political systems in which the public effectively cannot participate. Again, that's not to say that you can't find varying degrees of corruption, nor is it to say that such systems can't eventually be weakened to the point where they no longer function. One can certainly make the case that in the U.S., we're well on our way there.

 

[OrphanSlug]

No, not really. Nobody's denying that there are kleptocrats and authoritarians in a liberal democratic system. The difference is that the institutions in a liberal democratic system prevent them from becoming an all-out kleptocracy, which is almost always authoritarian out of necessity to keep the scam going.

It's ridiculous to argue that Western Europe is as kleptocratic as, say, Russia or China, both of which are closed political systems in which the public effectively cannot participate. Again, that's not to say that you can't find varying degrees of corruption, nor is it to say that such systems can't eventually be weakened to the point where they no longer function. One can certainly make the case that in the U.S., we're well on our way there.

I find it dubious that we are splitting hairs over western "kleptocrats" vs eastern as if there is some betterment of conclusion for those we claim are the real victims of such power be it economic, social, governmental, religious ideology, or some terrible combination of them.

You may mention Russia and China (or even North Korea) and I would agree that brand of authoritarianism and claim of wealth and resource is horrible for their people. I would argue a similar but slightly different story for Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Iran, or Libya (before or after Gaddafi,) or Afghanistan (now that the Taliban is back in charge,) or even Iraq (before or after our influence.)

But where we differ is the aristocratic divide between those in power with plenty of claim to wealth and resource in plenty of western nations. The US is easy to top that list but we cannot let other nations off the hook just because they claim better "liberal democratic" values. It is also easy to mention any number of nations between the US and South America riddles with crime, violence, poverty, and disaster from the so called 'war on drugs.' The raw level of international criminal enterprise to support our nation being the #1 consumer of their product speaks volumes to the faults I am talking about.

My point being on a long enough timeline it is also splitting hairs to look at how vulture capitalism destroys itself and plenty of lives along the way as authoritarian socialist nations and/or theocratic nightmares of government.

You really think our flavor of Kleptocracy (diminishing middle class, increasing poverty, high crime, incredible wealth divide, and as a nation spending more years in conflict with ourselves and/or someone else) gets us off the hook?

My offer is to reevaluate how forgiving you are of our greed, hubris, and even arrogance vs. other world leaders from arguably non western nations.

 

[multivita-man]

But where we differ is the aristocratic divide between those in power with plenty of claim to wealth and resource in plenty of western nations. The US is easy to top that list but we cannot let other nations off the hook just because they claim better "liberal democratic" values.

Where did I say anything about "letting them off the hook"? I wrote no such thing, nor was anything of the sort implied.
anctioned theft. For the record, I agree it's a highly flawed policy, but I don't see how that's relevant to the topic.

My point being on a long enough timeline it is also splitting hairs to look at how vulture capitalism destroys itself and plenty of lives along the way as authoritarian socialist nations and/or theocratic nightmares of government.

No disagreement at all.

You really think our flavor of Kleptocracy (diminishing middle class, increasing poverty, high crime, incredible wealth divide, and as a nation spending more years in conflict with ourselves and/or someone else) gets us off the hook?

I don't know what you mean by "get us off the hook". I'm more than willing to acknowledge that there's corruption in Western liberal democracies, but I'm not going to compare corruption in systems where open civic participation is encouraged and where there is the rule of law, to the kind of corruption that is normalized in closed systems where people have virtually no ability to hold anyone accountable. There's always the possibility that systems can get manipulated to the point where the openness of a political system is a mirage and the rule of law is a farce. I don't think we're there yet.

My offer is to reevaluate how forgiving you are of our greed, hubris, and even arrogance vs. other world leaders from arguably non western nations.

Please feel free to quote where you think I've adopted a posture of abeyance with respect to our own greed, hubris, and arrogance.

 

[Antiwar]

I find it dubious that we are splitting hairs over western "kleptocrats" vs eastern as if there is some betterment of conclusion for those we claim are the real victims of such power be it economic, social, governmental, religious ideology, or some terrible combination of them.

You may mention Russia and China (or even North Korea) and I would agree that brand of authoritarianism and claim of wealth and resource is horrible for their people. I would argue a similar but slightly different story for Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Iran, or Libya (before or after Gaddafi,) or Afghanistan (now that the Taliban is back in charge,) or even Iraq (before or after our influence.)

But where we differ is the aristocratic divide between those in power with plenty of claim to wealth and resource in plenty of western nations. The US is easy to top that list but we cannot let other nations off the hook just because they claim better "liberal democratic" values. It is also easy to mention any number of nations between the US and South America riddles with crime, violence, poverty, and disaster from the so called 'war on drugs.' The raw level of international criminal enterprise to support our nation being the #1 consumer of their product speaks volumes to the faults I am talking about.

My point being on a long enough timeline it is also splitting hairs to look at how vulture capitalism destroys itself and plenty of lives along the way as authoritarian socialist nations and/or theocratic nightmares of government.

You really think our flavor of Kleptocracy (diminishing middle class, increasing poverty, high crime, incredible wealth divide, and as a nation spending more years in conflict with ourselves and/or someone else) gets us off the hook?

My offer is to reevaluate how forgiving you are of our greed, hubris, and even arrogance vs. other world leaders from arguably non western nations.

Did you recently change the tune of your commentary? If I understand what you're saying in this thread, I think I agree with you.

 

[Antiwar]

The kleptos are already in control of America regardless of what semblance of democracy there may be.

They always have been.

And Western Europeans are still trying to dominate the world.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Did you recently change the tune of your commentary? If I understand what you're saying in this thread, I think I agree with you.

Where you are concerned I have change no tune, the subject is Kleptocracy and what defines it. My opinion is seeing its core elements just about all over the globe despite the constructs of a given society in comparison to another.

 

[Evilroddy]

It is an interested subject when considering what causes Kleptocracy, which some would consider runaway vulture capitalism whereas others may look at it as one of the many side effects of political duopoly. Regardless of which direction one may lean on the subject it could be argued quite well this is the reality of a modern day governmental mixed with wealth based aristocracy.

Orphanslug:

Some quotes shortened for word count.

Good parallels.

But there is another matter to consider on this one, human nature.

True. Human nature can lead some to steal, cheat, assault. Rape, murder, etc. Human nature may be an explanation for why kleptocracy arises but it is not the whole story as kleptocracy is as much done by nonhuman legal persons (partnerships, corporations, financial institutions, trusts, government institutions, etc.) as by human real persons. Human nature is also not an excuse for kleptocratic conspiracy. (I know you did not say this, I am extrapolating now.)

Across all of history, damn near without exception, the accumulation of wealth in all of its forms has ended up with some degree of association with the control over resources, property, and ultimately people. .., no other social or religious ideologies are immune to that link of authority and wealth with social ranking.

I think that this is true. However the modern era's struggle with oligarchic kleptocracy is that it hides itself so well and convinces too many observers that it is not present at all. Historical kleptocracy has been overt and easy to spot and was generally limited to just one or a few states in a region. Today it is largely invisible and is globally pervasive.

We have plenty of examples history to current of very insane people .... And when you get down to it there is no spot anywhere on the globe where somewhere from history to current some form of Kleptocracy creeps in.

True, but what sets the modern problem of kleptocracy apart from historical versions is the scale and the breadth of the theft coupled with the institutional sophistication of the thieves at work.

All of that is my way of saying Kleptocracy is really just a combination of greed (defined as excessive want) and hubris (defined as excessive pride.)

You are correct IMHO.

Which is where borderline to outright criminal activity in the accumulation of wealth and position in society seem to be hand in hand. All things considered when climbing the social ladder via greed and hubris then the other ills of society tend to be there no matter the prevailing ideologies and government types happen to be present.

Yup, greed, arrogance and hubris are always there. But revolutions or wars were always able to hold visible kleptocracy in check. Today's nearly invisible kleptocracy passes almost unnoticed in a world of blind trusts and opaque holding companies which cloak kleptocracy today.

You may even be able to argue ....

Put it to you this way... there is no real example of a large group of people under some form of governance and/or nation without one or more people claiming, seizing, and/or controlling for themselves far more than is available or afforded to those under them.

True, but it was visible and thus the force of law or the might of numbers historically constrained kleptocracy. That is no longer the case and kleptocracy has become unconstrained since the end of WWII.

We can claim some western governments and ideologies are otherwise, but not really.

Some form of wealth has always been in bed with some form of social and/or governmental order. Always.

But was that wealth enclosed by theft and was that wealth so well hidden that the people being stolen from did not even notice it?

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

No, not really. Nobody's denying that there are kleptocrats and authoritarians in a liberal democratic system. The difference is that the institutions in a liberal democratic system prevent them from becoming an all-out kleptocracy, which is almost always authoritarian out of necessity to keep the scam going.

Multivita:

I think Western Europe is just better at hiding its kleptocracy than Russia, Ukraine, the "Stans" and the China's. The City in the centre of London is the largest clearing-house for kleptocratic wealth from Europe, including Russia. Likewise Antwerp for laundering ill gotten gems to money or vice versa. France has repeatedly been entangled in scandals regarding suspect petroleum wealth going astray and the 2011 attack led by France on Libya was a giant bank-heist designed to protect European kleptocratic interests from being challenged by African economic and financial nationalism in the form of a Libyan-funded African development bank emerging to thwart European control of African finances.

It's ridiculous to argue that Western Europe is as kleptocratic as, say, Russia or China, both of which are closed political systems in which the public effectively cannot participate. Again, that's not to say that you can't find varying degrees of corruption, nor is it to say that such systems can't eventually be weakened to the point where they no longer function. One can certainly make the case that in the U.S., we're well on our way there.

The treatment of Greece in 2015 was a European kleptocratic slap-down of a European country trying to stop the theft of its wealth by international banks which loaned money to other banks operating in Greece but then demanded that the Greek people and state pay back the loans despite getting little if any of the actual money loaned to the banks operating in Greece. Greece was fleeced and then broken by economic warfare, led by the European Central Bank to bend the knee and service the debt that kleptocratic bankers had racked up.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[code1211]

Not sure I'd go quite so far as to suggest that North Dakota or Delaware are examples of American kleptocracy. Although tax havens definitely enable kleptocratic oligarchs and plutocrats, there's nothing inherently criminal about a tax haven.

Kleptocracy is what the Trump administration almost normalized. See Scott Pruitt, for example. Or see the companies that applied for assistance under the very loosely regulated/enforced CARES Act. That's kleptocracy at work, and if Trump returns, that's the return of American kleptocracy, and the end of American democracy.

The ethics scandals that eventually forced Scott Pruitt to resign

Pruitt was accused of a litany of corrupt practices, any one of which would have ended the career of an ordinary politician

www.theguardian.com

It's cute that you are so completely blinded by the Never-Trumper propagandists.

Since 1999, if taxes collected had remained constant and Federal Outlays had increased by only the amount of the increase to the Social Security COLA, we would today have a surplus in our Treasury of $7 TRILLION.

Instead, we have a debt of $30 TRILLION.

The difference, $37 TRILLION, is the amount that the lying thieves have stolen from the American People.

That is $112,000 the lying thieves have stolen from YOU individually since 1999.

Money is not appropriated by the Executive Branch.