Kingsburg High to allow teachers to carry guns on campus

[Crimefree]

It was in desperation of trying to understand an incredibly incoherent series of posts. Perhaps I should apologize for making the effort.

I have no idea why they were incoherent to you.

No it was biased and really out of place. Stop that and check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2000s

They are not the "place of choice" for mass shootings. They are a soft target, yes, but they are not "the choice" for mass shootings.

Only two mass shootings have been outside of a gun free zone. The vast majority have been schools. What does that make them?

 

[Crimefree]

As long as the teacher is vetted and trained I have no problem with it. And I mean SERIOUS training. The point of allowing them to carry in a school is to protect out children if it comes to that and to do so properly requires specialized training and periodic drills.

If that were the case then training would reduce accidental deaths but it does not.

Teachers are not employed to protect children any more than they are to protect citizens I don't see a problem with either.

One really needs to look at police statistics to see what training and a job requirement can do. It appears police kill more than citizens ~Kleck Gertz.

 

[Crimefree]

When they're chosen method to defend themselves conflicts with other's rights to be free from harm, intentional or otherwise.

It seems pretty basic.

You going to explain this or just think everybody knows? How does anyone carrying a firearm endanger others?

What rights does anyone have to be free of harm? That is why there is an ABSOLUTE right to self-defence.

 

[RetiredUSN]

When they're chosen method to defend themselves conflicts with other's rights to be free from harm, intentional or otherwise.

It seems pretty basic.

There is no guarantee of safety regardless of where you are, and who you are with. Denying self defense to any group of people is nothing more than a back door invitation.

 

[Crimefree]

I was making an observation that reinoe was certainly not the only person I have seen making a subtle-to-not-so-subtle inquiry or statement indicating the desirability that a certain percentage of American school children are killed by school staff members.

He was expressing his fears. An emotional statement made sense to him. Irrelevant here. Contains no useful information or facts.

 

[Cisero]

[h=1]Kingsburg High to allow teachers to carry guns on campus [/h]


Small town, small school district in a mostly conservative town. Local opinions are very mixed. What do you think?

At 5:20, Jim shares my feelings pretty well :mrgreen:

 

[Crimefree]

At 5:20, Jim shares my feelings pretty well :mrgreen:

Does he share your false beliefs as well? 1 minute into that clip is all the time it took for the first lie so I must assume you promote lies as truth like all gun control cultists.

The lie in fact two lies, no mass murder since the buyback and the decrease in crime he conveniently forgot to mention is EIGHT yes 8 years later. To date not one gun control cultist has explained this delay or the 12 years of England's delay and a huge increase directly after. Imagine that liars with straight faces, liars pretending to tell the truth. Jim even claims it is fact.

Snowtown murders August 1992 – May 1999 Snowtown, South Australia 12

Childers Palace Backpackers fire 23 June 2000 Childers, Queensland 15

Monash University Shooting 21 October 2002 Melbourne, Victoria 2

Churchill Fire 7 February 2009 Churchill, Victoria 10

Lin family murders 18 July 2009 North Epping, New South Wales 5

2011 Hectorville siege 29 April 2011 Hectorville, South Australia 3

Quakers Hill Nursing Home Fire 18 November 2011 Sydney, NSW 11

Hunt family murders 9 September 2014 Lockhart, New South Wales 5

Logan shooting 22 October 2014 Logan, Victoria 3

Cairns child killings 19 December 2014 Cairns, Queensland 8

Does not look like zero to me but then I know gun control cultists lie and lie.

 

[Cisero]

Does he share your false beliefs as well? 1 minute into that clip is all the time it took for the first lie so I must assume you promote lies as truth like all gun control cultists.

The lie in fact two lies, no mass murder since the buyback and the decrease in crime he conveniently forgot to mention is EIGHT yes 8 years later. To date not one gun control cultist has explained this delay or the 12 years of England's delay and a huge increase directly after. Imagine that liars with straight faces, liars pretending to tell the truth. Jim even claims it is fact.

Monash University Shooting 21 October 2002 Melbourne, Victoria 2

2011 Hectorville siege 29 April 2011 Hectorville, South Australia 3

Hunt family murders 9 September 2014 Lockhart, New South Wales 5

Logan shooting 22 October 2014 Logan, Victoria 3

Does not look like zero to me but then I know gun control cultists lie and lie.

I edited out the non-firearm related mass-murders.
First off, relax man, he's a comedian. Agreed he was incorrect about his "0 gun mass murders" statement. But come on, 13 gun mass-murder deaths between 1996 and 2014.
In the USA in 2015, 15 deaths related to gun mass-murders were reported in less than a month.

Mass Shootings - 2015 | Gun Violence Archive

 

[jamesrage]

[h=1]Kingsburg High to allow teachers to carry guns on campus [/h]


Small town, small school district in a mostly conservative town. Local opinions are very mixed. What do you think?

I trust teachers with guns.At least those who been teaching a couple years or more. I wasn't the most well behaved kid in school so I know these people are able to put up with a lot from kids. I however do think it should be concealed carry, I do not think students should know who has guns and who doesn't. This ensures some suicidal social outcast loser can't plan for when that armed teacher is home sick or to go to the side of the campus where there are no armed teachers.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

If that were the case then training would reduce accidental deaths but it does not.

Teachers are not employed to protect children any more than they are to protect citizens I don't see a problem with either.

One really needs to look at police statistics to see what training and a job requirement can do. It appears police kill more than citizens ~Kleck Gertz.

If I they are assigning a certain number of teachers to be armed there needs to be a reason for it other than protecting their own asses, otherwise they would just say they would just recognize concealed carry permits and be done with it. protecting yourself requires a little training. Protecting a school full of children requires significant training.

 

[Dittohead not!]

If I they are assigning a certain number of teachers to be armed there needs to be a reason for it other than protecting their own asses, otherwise they would just say they would just recognize concealed carry permits and be done with it. protecting yourself requires a little training. Protecting a school full of children requires significant training.

Limiting the number was most likely a compromise on the part of the school board. Locals were not all in agreement with the idea. Some were, some weren't, and for the same reasons we've seen expressed on this thread.

 

[TurtleDude]

It will be quite an embarrassment, if a teacher shoots a naughty kid.

versus the far more realistic scenario of school employees dying because they were disarmed as was the case in Sandy Hook or V.T.

 

[Slyfox696]

versus the far more realistic scenario of school employees dying because they were disarmed as was the case in Sandy Hook or V.T.

Is it more realistic though? Genuine question. I wonder how many studies have been done on teacher violence in schools.

I'm not disputing your claim, though I do find it hard to believe you actually have facts to support it. I'm genuinely curious on what the, let's call it risk-reward, numbers would be.

 

[TurtleDude]

Is it more realistic though? Genuine question. I wonder how many studies have been done on teacher violence in schools.

I'm not disputing your claim, though I do find it hard to believe you actually have facts to support it. I'm genuinely curious on what the, let's call it risk-reward, numbers would be.

take a percentage of CCW carriers who have also had the background checks you need to be a school teacher, I am a certified coach in two different USOC-NGBs and I have to have a background Check every couple years plus I have to have passed what is called "Safe Sport" (its an attempt to keep from happening with abuse of athletes in some high profile sports like Swimming and girls' gymnastics). So if you have a teacher who is packing on school and pursuant to the school or local authorities' permission you have someone who has passed a CCW class-probably passed an active shooter class and training and has been background checked several times. I suspect such people are less likely to do something silly or dangerous, then your average cop.

so I guess the statistics we'd have to use is the incidents of people with this sort of training and scrutiny going bonkers vs innocents killed in active shooting incidents at schools.

I think though we'd both agree that the numbers are going to be extremely low. either way. but that is the interesting argument. Gun restrictionists claim that "mass shootings" are the reason to ban semi auto rifles (which, save for a few highly publicized mass shootings, have almost no usage in murder or other gun crimes) but at the same time deny things are bad enough to justify teachers being armed or private citizens having the same defensive weaponry as civilian cops

my attitude is that while the chance of an active shooter is very rare, its better to be prepared to deal with one than not because IMHO, the cost for being prepared is not particularly high (even with the supposed dangers of teachers packing) but the cost of not being prepared is catastrophic as Sandy Hook or VT proved

 

[Slyfox696]

take a percentage of CCW carriers who have also had the background checks you need to be a school teacher, I am a certified coach in two different USOC-NGBs and I have to have a background Check every couple years plus I have to have passed what is called "Safe Sport" (its an attempt to keep from happening with abuse of athletes in some high profile sports like Swimming and girls' gymnastics). So if you have a teacher who is packing on school and pursuant to the school or local authorities' permission you have someone who has passed a CCW class-probably passed an active shooter class and training and has been background checked several times. I suspect such people are less likely to do something silly or dangerous, then your average cop.

so I guess the statistics we'd have to use is the incidents of people with this sort of training and scrutiny going bonkers vs innocents killed in active shooting incidents at schools.

I understand what you're saying, but teaching kids can be maddening. Obviously being mad doesn't necessarily mean becoming violent and/or losing all reason (if it did, I totally would have smacked a student just today), but it would be that situation which would lead to a mostly innocent student being shot, or even having a gun used as intimidation.

I think though we'd both agree that the numbers are going to be extremely low. either way. but that is the interesting argument.

We agree the number for both sets of data would be low.

Gun restrictionists claim that "mass shootings" are the reason to ban semi auto rifles (which, save for a few highly publicized mass shootings, have almost no usage in murder or other gun crimes)

I do not believe I've seen a statistic which disputes this. If I'm not mistaken, handguns are the most used firearm in homicides and it's not even close.

This is one of those areas where I have kind of changed my opinion over the years. Given the very low number of homicides by these types of rifles, I really don't see the need to ban them. I do see potential in limiting their ability to create mass causalities as an option, but you and I have gone through that at least once before.

but at the same time deny things are bad enough to justify teachers being armed or private citizens having the same defensive weaponry as civilian cops

I won't speak for others, but my opposition to teachers being armed is varied and complex, but the main point can essentially be summed up by saying it creates a negative dynamic shift in the teacher/student relationship.

my attitude is that while the chance of an active shooter is very rare, its better to be prepared to deal with one than not because IMHO, the cost for being prepared is not particularly high (even with the supposed dangers of teachers packing)

And I feel there are other options which make more sense, most notably increased police presence at the school.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

On balance, I do not think firearms need to be in the schools, nor do I necessarily think it is appropriate with teachers at the helm, either.

It doesn't matter either way. If firearms can be carried at most every other public place then schools should be no issue.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

When they're chosen method to defend themselves conflicts with other's rights to be free from harm, intentional or otherwise.

It seems pretty basic.

You have no "right" to be free from harm.

And your idea of a "right to be free from harm" seems like such a tenuous proposition. That your "right to be free from harm" includes the right to demand others behavior that does not harm you be modified so you feel safer.

If someone harms you unlawfully you have a right to self defense and the state has a right to prosecute the harmer

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Limiting the number was most likely a compromise on the part of the school board. Locals were not all in agreement with the idea. Some were, some weren't, and for the same reasons we've seen expressed on this thread.

I do not nessecarily support arming school staff although I do not also oppose it.

In Washington state Toppenish school district (in Yakima) created a policy allowing administrators to carry. The administrators provide their firearms, they go through legal use of force training, and have to qualify on a WA law enforcement qualification course every year, and must carry concealed.

I think it's the best of school security solutions I've seen I this field.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I want to focus on this

Kingsburg parent Tamara Norris said she is concerned how the policy will affect the student body, and that her daughter feels uneasy about not knowing which teachers will have weapons on campus.

“I’m wondering how the board might interact with the kids in regards to the level of anxiety that will potentially occur for some of them. I understand why you would not publicly announce who is carrying, but (my daughter) is wondering, ‘Who can I trust?’ ” Norris said. “It makes her very nervous. I can’t imagine she’s the only one.”

Read more here: Kingsburg High to allow teachers to carry guns on campus | Fresno Bee

Basically, this parent is saying her children can't trust anyone because one of them might be carryng a gun. She lives near Fresno which has the most CCW licenses In Calif since Sheriff Margaret Mimms took office, and in a country where 100 million people own guns but she can't trust them. Either this mother is being dramatic or we need to worry whether or not these children are being properly socialized so that they can function in society without unreasonable trust issues

 

[Fiddytree]

It doesn't matter either way. If firearms can be carried at most every other public place then schools should be no issue.

As was explained elsewhere, the metrics and impact of introducing firearms into the schools extends far beyond normal gun control v gun freedom arguments.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

As was explained elsewhere, the metrics and impact of introducing firearms into the schools extends far beyond normal gun control v gun freedom arguments.

No they don't. Guns can be carried in schools same as everywhere else in many states. Mississippi, Alabama, Oregon, and Utah and Michigan

There has never been a student hurt by a CPL holder in these states.
It was legal in California until last year because the legislature was running out of gun control ideas
The metrics you speak of are unfounded speculation

 

[Dittohead not!]

I want to focus on this



Basically, this parent is saying her children can't trust anyone because one of them might be carryng a gun. She lives near Fresno which has the most CCW licenses In Calif since Sheriff Margaret Mimms took office, and in a country where 100 million people own guns but she can't trust them. Either this mother is being dramatic or we need to worry whether or not these children are being properly socialized so that they can function in society without unreasonable trust issues

She may be an individual with an irrational fear of guns, too.