Kindergartner suspended for bringing princess bubble gun to school

[Absentglare]

And we're seeing this on college campuses and even law schools (where students are so distressed by the idea of rape laws being taught that they want "trigger warnings").

Completely different issue. You're conflating speech with potential physical harm.

 

[Absentglare]

Yeah, this is more due to the issues of zero tolerance than the lefts issue with guns. And zero tolerance in our schools is an issue we've arrived at due to bipartisan ****ery

^ exactly this people.

Anytime you have a rule, there will be cases where that rule works well, and there will be cases where that rule doesn't work well.

You can consider this in a statistical manner as well. There are type I (false positive, we think it's a gun and overreact but it turns out it's not) and type II errors (false negative, we see a gun, think it's a toy gun and ignore it).

I think it's pretty obvious that, as a society, we can agree that the consequences of the type I error are far more desirable than the consequences of the type II error. That is what zero tolerance rules reflect; sure, we overreact in some corner cases like this, but it's not actually a big deal.

Am i happy that this girl got suspended ? No, not really. If i was in charge, i would have confiscated the toy, given it to the parents, and informed them of the policy.

But most importantly, this isn't a partisan thing. Virtually all parents want to protect their children. They tend to have a very strong interest in the safety of their children.

 

[clownboy]

Did you look at the picture of the thing?

I did, and looking at it as it is, a type of water gun, it qualifies for being sent home for the rest of the day under the decades old no water guns in school policy. 40 years ago when I was teaching in California elementary schools students were sent home for the rest of the day for bringing their water guns to school.

What is silly is the district's defense of this event using the no lookalikes policy. But remember, this is CO, where school shootings are still on the public mind. There isn't a single parent who doesn't know or been shown this policy and what will happen if violated. Is the mother living under a rock somewhere?

 

[Bodi]

Does it have a trigger and a barrel, yes or no ?

:lol: Yeah... because everything with a trigger might be a real gun. I swear...

 

[OrphanSlug]

It is not a suspension of critical reason, it is unburdening the administrators from the need to employ their own discretion and interpretation.

The school has an obligation to provide for the safety and security of the students.

The school has ZERO obligation to allow students to bring firearm facsimiles to school. In fact, the need for security explains why such zero tolerance rules are in effect.

Now, do you trust that a teacher paid, what, $11/hr is going to be able to identify a handgun from a bb gun, and do you expect parents should be happy to gamble their children's lives on the teachers ability to do so successfully ?

When i trust my kid's life to someone else, i expect them to take my kid's safety very ****ing seriously.

I cannot fathom how anyone could conclude anything else.

What is the loss here ? A little kid is suspended from school for one day ? Maybe that's a bit more severe than i'd expect, but it's really not a big deal... At all...

You are proving my point for me, and all without the need to belittle a teacher because of what you think they make.

This was not some BB gun that looks like a real gun, this is a clear plastic bubble producing gun that cannot me mistaken for anything that fires a projectile.

To your point this action taken by this school has zero relation to safety and security. And by application, zero tolerance policy design also has zero to do with safety and security as anytime you suspend critical thought you suspend reason. Without reason you cannot justify the actions of zero tolerance as rooted in safety or security.

The "rules" in this case are in effect to give one the illusion that these kids are safe and secure. If it were really otherwise then the presence of zero tolerance policy would in itself guarantee safety and security, and we know that is not the case these days.

To be an administrator of anything means the ability to think, zero tolerance rules get them off the hook for having to engage in that and result in stupid **** like this. A kindergartner being suspended over a bubble device.

 

[Absentglare]

:lol: Yeah... because everything with a trigger might be a real gun. I swear...

If it's designed to project something out a specific direction in front of the holder, it's handheld, it has a trigger where the finger goes-

Look, i get that most people haven't read Don Norman's The Design of Everyday Things but there are expectations that human beings make about how something works on the basis of their experience. You walk into a dark room- you will reach with your hand along the wall about 3-4' high for a light switch.

Most people are NOT obsessed with guns, most people don't know what guns are out there. That's why we have zero tolerance, so we don't put our children's safety in the hands of uninformed judgements.

I'm sure the teacher knew it wasn't a real gun, but they can't allow anyone to bring toy guns !

 

[X Factor]

What does this have to do with liberalism ?

If i am to try to make sense of your statement, the ACLU has been accused of being a liberal organization, and you are outraged that the ACLU would speak in the student/mother's defense. Is that accurate, or can you articulate something else that's actually sensical ?



Zero tolerance is not open to interpretation by design. The purpose of this is to use the most simple, commonly accessible description of a rule as possible. This makes your statement here false by definition.

A one day suspension is absolutely nothing, i'm not glad that we're rewarding this attention seeking whiner.

I'd be pissed if the ACLU ever presumed to say something on my behalf.

 

[Bodi]

If it's designed to project something out a specific direction in front of the holder, it's handheld, it has a trigger where the finger goes-

Look, i get that most people haven't read Don Norman's The Design of Everyday Things but there are expectations that human beings make about how something works on the basis of their experience. You walk into a dark room- you will reach with your hand along the wall about 3-4' high for a light switch.

Most people are NOT obsessed with guns, most people don't know what guns are out there. That's why we have zero tolerance, so we don't put our children's safety in the hands of uninformed judgements.

I'm sure the teacher knew it wasn't a real gun, but they can't allow anyone to bring toy guns !

When we have students bring non-lethal items to school (excluding knives, guns, BB guns, drugs, etc) we simply confiscate the items and at worst, call the parent to collect the item and we discuss with them why the kid had it taken and to not do it again. Admittedly we do apply a large amount of common sense. Suspension is retarded.

 

[Mr Person]

Liberalism and feminism begat this scourge. We all know it. And most of us can admit it.

People who's main purpose on a political debate forum is to bash liberals might "know" :lamo it, but this level of idiocy is found amongst school administrators of all political persuasions in states of all political demographics. One must make an honest and objective approach the issue to realize this.

I also have to wonder why persons whose sole purpose is liberal-bashing think that using the word "admit" somehow adds to the strength of their position. It doesn't do that at all. All it does is advertise that the speaker has no intention of vetting their opinion.

 

[X Factor]

If it's designed to project something out a specific direction in front of the holder, it's handheld, it has a trigger where the finger goes-

Look, i get that most people haven't read Don Norman's The Design of Everyday Things but there are expectations that human beings make about how something works on the basis of their experience. You walk into a dark room- you will reach with your hand along the wall about 3-4' high for a light switch.

Most people are NOT obsessed with guns, most people don't know what guns are out there. That's why we have zero tolerance, so we don't put our children's safety in the hands of uninformed judgements.

I'm sure the teacher knew it wasn't a real gun, but they can't allow anyone to bring toy guns !

Didn't you actually object when someone attributed this bit of retardation to liberals and here you are, a liberal, defending the suspension of this little kid for an obvious toy?

 

[Mr Person]

If it's designed to project something out a specific direction in front of the holder, it's handheld, it has a trigger where the finger goes-

Look, i get that most people haven't read Don Norman's The Design of Everyday Things but there are expectations that human beings make about how something works on the basis of their experience. You walk into a dark room- you will reach with your hand along the wall about 3-4' high for a light switch.

Most people are NOT obsessed with guns, most people don't know what guns are out there. That's why we have zero tolerance, so we don't put our children's safety in the hands of uninformed judgements.

I'm sure the teacher knew it wasn't a real gun, but they can't allow anyone to bring toy guns !

Oh come on.

""Colorado School District 27J’s policy states that “carrying, using, actively displaying or threatening with the use of a firearm facsimile that could reasonably be mistaken for an actual firearm on district property” is prohibited "

This was a ****ing Frozen themed bubble-maker in the shape of a gun, but which looks nothing at all like a gun. These idiot administrators can't even interpret their own policy. Zero tolerance = zero sense. The danger of an uninformed judgement is greatly preferable to a mandate that no judgments be made.

And more from the article: "The district’s statement notes that students who have brought items such as Nerf guns have also received one-day suspensions in the past."

I mean, really? Nerf guns?

These people are idiots. Besides, if a student has something that actually does look like a gun than crappy Disney merchandise, nobody in a position of authority is going to wonder about whether their judgment is "uninformed" before acting; they'll spring into action.

Well, there is a silver lining: they didn't shoot her on sight.

 

[sangha]

Zero tolerance for any common sense

zero tolerance was invented by right wingers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance

 

[Fishking]

honesty should be a part of our discusssion...............

So...no answer?

 

[Mr Person]

Suspension is retarded.

That's insensitive! One day suspension.

 

[Absentglare]

You are proving my point for me, and all without the need to belittle a teacher because of what you think they make.

This was not some BB gun that looks like a real gun, this is a clear plastic bubble producing gun that cannot me mistaken for anything that fires a projectile.

To your point this action taken by this school has zero relation to safety and security. And by application, zero tolerance policy design also has zero to do with safety and security as anytime you suspend critical thought you suspend reason. Without reason you cannot justify the actions of zero tolerance as rooted in safety or security.

The "rules" in this case are in effect to give one the illusion that these kids are safe and secure. If it were really otherwise then the presence of zero tolerance policy would in itself guarantee safety and security, and we know that is not the case these days.

To be an administrator of anything means the ability to think, zero tolerance rules get them off the hook for having to engage in that and result in stupid **** like this. A kindergartner being suspended over a bubble device.

You know that now after seeing it in use. You are 100% confident and that's why you can declare that this has "zero to do with safety and security." Of course, this is ridiculous.

The rules do not guarantee safety. These rules are about the minimization of risk, not the elimination of risk.

Tell me, toy or gun :

Oh, and if an $11/hr teacher takes this quiz and gets a single question wrong by calling a real gun "a toy" then children are shot. If that $11/hr teacher just marks them all real guns, then nobody is injured.

And since you question my teacher pay issue, of course, i am using average starting salary of $30,377 with 8 weeks off for summer and 62 hours a week (50hrs instruction + 12hrs outside of lecture), that's about $11/hr.

NEA - Myths and Facts about Educator Pay

 

[Absentglare]

When we have students bring non-lethal items to school (excluding knives, guns, BB guns, drugs, etc) we simply confiscate the items and at worst, call the parent to collect the item and we discuss with them why the kid had it taken and to not do it again. Admittedly we do apply a large amount of common sense. Suspension is retarded.

I like your policy. I actually prefer it to what was done in this case.

However, i acknowledge that the school must prioritize student safety far above the ability to bring toys to school.

 

[Fishking]

No, strawmen are not acceptable, and it seems that you don't know what a non sequitur is.

Sure, sure...because it's always legit to bring up something different to a discussion when talking about another thing. So like, if I talk about the success of the U.S. Women's soccer team and then you respond with, "No, the men's team sucks." That's relevant, right?

So if we talk about a kindergartner getting kicked out of school for having a bubble gun or a 7 year old getting kicked out of school for making a gun out of a pop tart it's totally the same as a 12 year old withe a replica pistol, that had the orange tip removed. I can totally see how these things are just as relevant.

 

[Mr Person]

I'd be pissed if the ACLU ever presumed to say something on my behalf.

Hey now, the ACLU has gone to bat for plenty of things conservatives tend to praise, like the right to free speech - even to the extent of defending the KKK's right to march, etc.

 

[Absentglare]

Didn't you actually object when someone attributed this bit of retardation to liberals and here you are, a liberal, defending the suspension of this little kid for an obvious toy?

That's true that i'm a liberal.

I'm also white. Can you claim that white people are the problem ? Maybe. Let's keep looking.

I also have brown hair. Can you blame brown haired people for this ? I hope at this point you can see the error.

I do deny that this concern is limited to liberals. Like i said, virtually all parents value their children's lives, and few parents care a great deal about their children's ability to bring toy guns to school.

Now, it may be that the group of people who value the ability to bring toy guns to school are conservative, i don't know, but that doesn't make the opposing position automatically liberal.

 

[X Factor]

Hey now, the ACLU has gone to bat for plenty of things conservatives tend to praise, like the right to free speech - even to the extent of defending the KKK's right to march, etc.

Right, because all conservatives are sympathetic to the KKK. Trying to think if I've ever had a decent enough exchange with you to actually continue to reply to you or just not waste my time.

 

[Mr Person]

You know that now after seeing it in use. You are 100% confident and that's why you can declare that this has "zero to do with safety and security." Of course, this is ridiculous.

The rules do not guarantee safety. These rules are about the minimization of risk, not the elimination of risk.

Tell me, toy or gun :

They're all obviously toy guns. The only one that might give someone pause if the Nintendo one IF the viewer was completely unfamiliar with weaponry and not in a position to see the writing (or perhaps even the red detailing)


I'm guessing the small all-one-color ones are 3d-printed, but until that is in any way prevalent, that just isn't a concern.

We cannot eliminate all risk in any respect; policies should account for marginal risk in order to be sensible, and zero tolerance utterly fails to do this.

 

[Absentglare]

Oh come on.

""Colorado School District 27J’s policy states that “carrying, using, actively displaying or threatening with the use of a firearm facsimile that could reasonably be mistaken for an actual firearm on district property” is prohibited "

This was a ****ing Frozen themed bubble-maker in the shape of a gun, but which looks nothing at all like a gun. These idiot administrators can't even interpret their own policy. Zero tolerance = zero sense. The danger of an uninformed judgement is greatly preferable to a mandate that no judgments be made.

And more from the article: "The district’s statement notes that students who have brought items such as Nerf guns have also received one-day suspensions in the past."

I mean, really? Nerf guns?

These people are idiots. Besides, if a student has something that actually does look like a gun than crappy Disney merchandise, nobody in a position of authority is going to wonder about whether their judgment is "uninformed" before acting; they'll spring into action.

Well, there is a silver lining: they didn't shoot her on sight.

I agree that they overreacted in this case, but i value taking the teachers'/administrators judgement out of the equation.

I think i've made my case reasonably well here that these consequences, while they certainly seem severe and unusual, are simply the result of having a near-universal standard applied.

 

[Mr Person]

Right, because all conservatives are sympathetic to the KKK. Trying to think if I've ever had a decent enough exchange with you to actually continue to reply to you or just not waste my time.

Way to miss the point.

Defending the KKK's right to march = defending The Right To Free Speech.

If the KKK has the right to free speech, you definitely do.



If you had slowed down, you would have realized I wasn't trying to bash conservatives.

 

[X Factor]

That's true that i'm a liberal.

I'm also white. Can you claim that white people are the problem ? Maybe. Let's keep looking.

I also have brown hair. Can you blame brown haired people for this ? I hope at this point you can see the error.

I do deny that this concern is limited to liberals. Like i said, virtually all parents value their children's lives, and few parents care a great deal about their children's ability to bring toy guns to school.

Now, it may be that the group of people who value the ability to bring toy guns to school are conservative, i don't know, but that doesn't make the opposing position automatically liberal.

And you feel that bubble gun presented a real risk to the kids at school? How much punishment did you want for the kid since you thought the punishment was too light? Juvie until 21?

 

[Absentglare]

Sure, sure...because it's always legit to bring up something different to a discussion when talking about another thing. So like, if I talk about the success of the U.S. Women's soccer team and then you respond with, "No, the men's team sucks." That's relevant, right?

So if we talk about a kindergartner getting kicked out of school for having a bubble gun or a 7 year old getting kicked out of school for making a gun out of a pop tart it's totally the same as a 12 year old withe a replica pistol, that had the orange tip removed. I can totally see how these things are just as relevant.

The police officer exercised zero tolerance of what could have been a firearm.

The school exercised zero tolerance of what could have been a firearm.

Your opinion that it is somehow magically impossible for something in the general shape of a gun to possibly be a real gun is irrelevant. The school made the determination that it is not impossible and rendered an admittedly severe punishment.