Khalid Sheikh Mohammad got a hearing...

[oldreliable67]

The Geneva Conventions establish a procedure called an "Article 5" hearing, conducted by a military tribunal, to review whether someone captured on the battlefield is in fact an enemy combatant. Such hearings are mandatory under the Geneva Conventions only if the combatant's status is in doubt, as KSM's surely was not. Nonetheless, KSM got a hearing Saturday, thanks to the U.S. military's liberal reading of the Geneva Conventions.

In the 2004 case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld the U.S. Supreme Court held that combatants with U.S. citizenship were entitled to Article 5 hearings, doubt or no doubt. Although the plaintiff in that case was the only Guantanamo detainee to hold U.S. citizenship, the military responded to Hamdi by extending Article 5 rights to all Guantanamo detainees.

The military has now released a redacted transcript (PDF), and it makes for fascinating reading. There is one part of it everyone should read: the list of 31 actual or prospective attacks in which KSM acknowledged having been "a responsible participant, principal planner, trainer, financier . . ., executor, and/or a personal participant." Here it is, quoting verbatim from the transcript (pages 18-19):

1. I was responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center Operation

2. I was responsible for the 9/11 Operation, from A to Z.

3. I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, [Wall Street Journal reporter] Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan. For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head.

4. I was responsible for the Shoe Bomber Operation to down two American airplanes.

5. I was responsible for the Filka Island operation in Kuwait that killed two American soldiers.

6. I was responsible for the bombing of a nightclub in Bali, Indonesia, which was frequented by British and American nationals.

7. I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing the New (or Second) Wave attacks against the following skyscrapers after 9/11:
a. Library Tower, California.
b. Sears Tower, Chicago,
c. Plaza Bank, Washington state.
d. The Empire State Building, New York City.

8. I was responsible for planning, financing, & follow-up of Operations to destroy American military vessels and oil tankers in the Straights of Hormuz, and Straights of Gibralter, and the Port of Singapore.

9. I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing for the Operation to bomb and destroy the Panama Canal.

10. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the assassination of several former American Presidents, including President Carter.

11. I was responsible for surveying, planning, and financing for the bombing of suspension bridges in New York.

12. I was responsible for planning to destroy the Sears Tower by burning a few fuel or oil tanker trucks beneath it or around it.

13. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing for the operation to destroy Heathrow Airport, the Canary Wharf Building, and Big Ben on British soil.

14. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing for the destruction of many night clubs frequented by American and British citizens on Thailand soil.

15. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the destruction of the New York Stock Exchange and other financial targets after 9/11.

16. I was responsible for planning, financing, and surveying for the destruction of buildings in the Israeli city of Elat by using airplanes leaving from Saudi Arabia.

17. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing for the destruction of American embassies in Indonesia, Australia, and Japan.

18. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the destruction of the Israeli embassy in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines, and Australia.

19. I was responsible for surveying and financing for the destruction of an Israeli 'El-Al' Airlines flight on Thailand soil departing from Bangkok Airport.

20. I was responsible for sending several Mujahadeen into Israel to conduct surveillance to hit several strategic targets deep in Israel.

21. I was responsible for the bombing of the hotel in Mombasa that is frequented by Jewish travelers via El-Al airlines.

22. I was responsible for launching a Russian-made SA-7 surface-to-air missile on El-Al or other Jewish airliner departing from Mombasa.

23. I was responsible for planning and surveying to hit American targets in South Korea, such as American military bases and a few night clubs frequented by American soldiers.

24. I was responsible for financial, excuse me, I was responsible for providing financial support to hit American, Jewish, and British targets in Turkey.

25. I was responsible for surveillance needed to hit nuclear power plants that generate electricity in several U.S. states.

26. I was responsible for planning, surveying, and financing to hit NATO Headquarters in Europe.

27. I was responsible for the planning and surveying needed to execute the Bojinka Operation, which was designed to down twelve American airplanes full of passengers. I personally monitored a round-trip, Manila-to-Seoul, Pan Am flight.

28. I was responsible for the assassination attempt against President Clinton during his visit to the Philippines in 1994 or 1995. . . .

29. I shared responsibility for the assassination attempt against Pope John Paul the second while he was visiting the Philippines.

30. I was responsible for the training and financing for the assassination of Pakistan's President Musharraf.

31. I was responsible for the attempt to destroy an American oil company owned by the Jewish former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, on the Island of Sumatra, Indonesia.

It is hard to argue against the increased vigilance following 9/11 having contributed materially to the prevention of the unsuccessful attacks.

Those who trivialize the efforts in the GWOT would do well do seriously contemplate the global breadth and potential for death and destruction of the terror acts listed by KSM.

 

[Navy Pride]

If it were up to me I would hang the SOB but I am sure he will get a trial....

 

[Doremus Jessup]

Damn, waterboarding works wonders, the guy copped to everything except the USS Cole bombing.

 

[SgtRock]

Damn, waterboarding works wonders, the guy copped to everything except the USS Cole bombing.

Yes and thats why we should continue to use such techniques.

 

[oldreliable67]

Damn, waterboarding works wonders, the guy copped to everything except the USS Cole bombing.

Read the transcript. KSM denies being tortured.

 

[Francaisforever]

The Geneva Conventions establish a procedure called an "Article 5" hearing, conducted by a military tribunal, to review whether someone captured on the battlefield is in fact an enemy combatant. Such hearings are mandatory under the Geneva Conventions only if the combatant's status is in doubt, as KSM's surely was not. Nonetheless, KSM got a hearing Saturday, thanks to the U.S. military's liberal reading of the Geneva Conventions.

In the 2004 case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld the U.S. Supreme Court held that combatants with U.S. citizenship were entitled to Article 5 hearings, doubt or no doubt. Although the plaintiff in that case was the only Guantanamo detainee to hold U.S. citizenship, the military responded to Hamdi by extending Article 5 rights to all Guantanamo detainees.

The military has now released a redacted transcript (PDF), and it makes for fascinating reading. There is one part of it everyone should read: the list of 31 actual or prospective attacks in which KSM acknowledged having been "a responsible participant, principal planner, trainer, financier . . ., executor, and/or a personal participant." Here it is, quoting verbatim from the transcript (pages 18-19):



It is hard to argue against the increased vigilance following 9/11 having contributed materially to the prevention of the unsuccessful attacks.

Those who trivialize the efforts in the GWOT would do well do seriously contemplate the global breadth and potential for death and destruction of the terror acts listed by KSM.

You forgot to post the last confession
32 I was responsible for the assassination of John F Kennedy

 

[Doremus Jessup]

Read the transcript. KSM denies being tortured.

We all know that the definition of torture is fairly arbitrary these days.

7. I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing the New (or Second) Wave attacks against the following skyscrapers after 9/11:
a. Library Tower, California.
b. Sears Tower, Chicago,
c. Plaza Bank, Washington state.
d. The Empire State Building, New York City.

Plaza Bank

Founded in early 2006, ...

Hasn't KSM been incarcerated since 2003? Fuzzy math?

 

[oldreliable67]

We all know that the definition of torture is fairly arbitrary these days.



Plaza Bank



Hasn't KSM been incarcerated since 2003? Fuzzy math?

Was KSM "waterboarded?" I don't know. Do you?

Is "waterboarding" torture?" Yes, in the eyes of many. No, in the eyes of many.

The huge City Center complex at 1420 5th Ave in Seattle predates the formation of tenant Plaza Bank by many years. Why the transcript lists the location as "Plaza Bank" instead of the more accurate "City Center", I've no idea. But I am sure that conspiracy theorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-US and anti-GWOT loonies will pick up on it and try to run with it.

 

[oldreliable67]

You forgot to post the last confession
32 I was responsible for the assassination of John F Kennedy

Nice contribution to the thread. Way to go. Not.

 

[Doremus Jessup]

Was KSM "waterboarded?" I don't know. Do you?

Is "waterboarding" torture?" Yes, in the eyes of many. No, in the eyes of many.

The huge City Center complex at 1420 5th Ave in Seattle predates the formation of tenant Plaza Bank by many years. Why the transcript lists the location as "Plaza Bank" instead of the more accurate "City Center", I've no idea. But I am sure that conspiracy theorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-US and anti-GWOT loonies will pick up on it and try to run with it.

Or you can just accept the "official story", and believe that this one guy was behind all of this sh!t. 9-11 A-Z? Doesn't really seem plausible to me. "Yes, I even put fresh razor blades into the box-cutters." This story is like something out of a comic book, it's like this guy is f#ckin' Cobra Commander.

 

[bub]

You forgot to post the last confession
32 I was responsible for the assassination of John F Kennedy

Ahahah! I was going to write "I was responsible for the Reischtag fire" :lol:

 

[Thelost1]

Ahahah! I was going to write "I was responsible for the Reischtag fire" :lol:

:lol: :lol:

Have to admit, that Plaza bank thing is a bit screwy.

 

[oldreliable67]

Or you can just accept the "official story", and believe that this one guy was behind all of this sh!t. 9-11 A-Z? Doesn't really seem plausible to me. "Yes, I even put fresh razor blades into the box-cutters." This story is like something out of a comic book, it's like this guy is f#ckin' Cobra Commander.

For a very good description of KSM's background, and his history and role with AQ, read "Inside Al Qaeda", by Rohan Gunaratna, which was published in 2002, before KSM was captured. KSM's role in AQ, his accomplishments (dark though they may be) and surprisingly secular lifestyle provide a very believable backdrop and render his confession highly believable.

KSM's activities are consistent with what we have come to know of OBL's methods of operation. That is, in addition to the spiritual aspects, OBL function(ed?) as the titular head, the CEO or managing director, if you will, of AQ. He both suggested operations and listened to proposals from others for operations. Those operations approved by OBL were typically carried out by their sponsors, with periodic progress reports/updates to OBL. He delegated responsibility rather freely. Some of KSM's operations appear to have been his idea/proposals, some appear to have been OBL's. All were reviewed and approved by OBL.

After the success of a couple of early terrorist operations (Somalia in particular), the money started pouring in once again, enabling a previously near-destitute OBL to start funding a whole "portfolio" of operations and research/surveillance for proposed operations. AQ helped research and approve targets, and coordinate timing. KSM, Hambali, and others were the "managers".

Is KSM (or the US gov't) embellishing KSM's "resume?" I don't know. I do know (if independent authors, such as the one noted above, are to be believed) that the list is consistent with KSM's documented travel and corroborated presence at or near the scenes of the majority of the attacks in time frames that lend additional credence to the claims.

 

[Tashah]

Read the transcript. KSM denies being tortured.

We all know that the definition of torture is fairly arbitrary these days.

Precisely why would the definition of torture be arbitrary to KSM? Logic dictates that an interrogated subject would embrace a definition of torture with the greatest possible depth and breadth. Despite this inherent wide lattitude, and despite a golden opportunity to answer in the affirmative, KSM denied being tortured. Even if he lied about everything else, this is the one question he would logically have truthfully answered.

btw... KSM's contributions to the Bojinka Operation have been well documented by numerous South Asian nations and the US court testimony of Ramzi.

 

[Francaisforever]

Precisely why would the definition of torture be arbitrary to KSM? Logic dictates that an interrogated subject would embrace a definition of torture with the greatest possible depth and breadth. Despite this inherent wide lattitude, and despite a golden opportunity to answer in the affirmative, KSM denied being tortured. Even if he lied about everything else, this is the one question he would logically have truthfully answered.

btw... KSM's contributions to the Bojinka Operation have been well documented by numerous South Asian nations and the US court testimony of Ramzi.

..........."KSM denied being tortured. Even if he lied about everything else, this is the one question he would logically have truthfully answered."........

That's funny. Please tell us where KSM is going back after answering the question? Hey don't worry we already know. So saying that he has not been tortured may save him more pain. Does he have any choice to say that he wasn't tortured? And to whom would he says he has been tortured? Let see, one of KSM is drilling holes with a Black&Deker in your skull after "asking" you few questions, then at this time I'm sure you will tell him what he wants to hear and more. Then few months later, you gonna go on trial and just before you go in front of the judges, he will tell you that if you are asked if you have been tortured you will say no.......because if you say yes........more holes in your skull afterwards and who will be there for you to complain to? I'm sure you get my drift. Not that I pitty KSM, just to say that when you torture someone you have a very good chance to have him admit anything you want him to.

 

[Francaisforever]

Nice contribution to the thread. Way to go. Not.

How old are you? The difference between you and I is a) I don't know what has really happened to KSM b) I think it is very interesting that KSM is willing to admit (or at least this is what the gvt is saying) to anything after being in captivity for the past 2 years. If you take for granted what the gvt tells you, then you are very naive or you are pushing its agenda......What it's gonna be? It seems that because the WB's administration could not get OBL, they are trying to make KSM the bigger man to get, to save face. The presidential elections are coming, the neocons needs to show something positive in their "war on terror"......So KSM? pile on him, why not!

 

[Tashah]

..........."KSM denied being tortured. Even if he lied about everything else, this is the one question he would logically have truthfully answered."........

That's funny. Please tell us where KSM is going back after answering the question? Hey don't worry we already know. So saying that he has not been tortured may save him more pain. Does he have any choice to say that he wasn't tortured? And to whom would he says he has been tortured? Let see, one of KSM is drilling holes with a Black&Deker in your skull after "asking" you few questions, then at this time I'm sure you will tell him what he wants to hear and more. Then few months later, you gonna go on trial and just before you go in front of the judges, he will tell you that if you are asked if you have been tortured you will say no.......because if you say yes........more holes in your skull afterwards and who will be there for you to complain to? I'm sure you get my drift. Not that I pitty KSM, just to say that when you torture someone you have a very good chance to have him admit anything you want him to.

Fair enough. Lets take a previous prisoner's statement as an exemplar. This is the statement of Moazzam Begg, a Pakistan/UK national incarcerated in Gitmo. This statement was authored by Begg while he was still incarcerated in Guantanamo and dated 12 July 2004.
Full Statement: I, Moazzam Begg, Demand to Be Freed From Guantanamo

<snippet>

I state here, unequivocally and for the record, that any documents presented to me by U.S. law enforcement agents were signed and initialed under duress, thus rendered legally contested in validity. During several interviews, particularly — though unexclusively — in Afghanistan, I was subjected to pernicious threats of torture and death threats — amongst other coercively employed interrogation techniques. Neither was the presence of legal counsel ever produced or made available.

<snippet>

The said interviews were conducted in an environment of generated fear, resonant with terrifying screams of fellow detainees facing similar methods. In this atmosphere of severe antipathy toward detainees was the compounded use of racially and religiously prejudiced taunts. This culminated, in my opinion, with the deaths of two fellow detainees, at the hands of U.S. military personnel, to which I myself was partially witness.

<snippet>

In spite of all the aforementioned cruel and unusual treatment meted out, I have maintained a compliant and amicable manner with my captors and a cooperative attitude. My behavioral record is impeccable, yet contrasts immensely to what I have experienced, as stated.

Epilogue: Begg and four other British prisoners were released from Guantanamo on 27 January 2005 after spending over three years in US military custody.
BBC NEWS | UK | At-a-glance: Guantanamo Bay Britons

So you see Francaisforever, your argument that KSM would not avail himself of the opportunity to claim torture for fear of retribution is not vindicated. Clearly, prisoners have indeed claimed torture at Gitmo and these prisoners were subsequently released.

While I believe that KSM was indeed tortured during his incarceration (waterboarding), he clearly states that he was not authoring the incriminating tribunal hearing statement (OP Post# 1) under duress.

 

[oldreliable67]

How old are you?

It has been many, many years since I was a sophomore.

The difference between you and I is a) I don't know what has really happened to KSM b) I think it is very interesting that KSM is willing to admit (or at least this is what the gvt is saying) to anything after being in captivity for the past 2 years.

a) I don't know what has really happened to KSM either. b) But I do know independent authors and researchers have written about him personally and his activities. I find a great deal of consistency between the transcript of his confession and the other information previously disclosed by independent authors and researchers (one good source mentioned above) about him.

If you take for granted what the gvt tells you, then you are very naive or you are pushing its agenda......What it's gonna be?

Naive? Not hardly. Take for granted what the gov't tells me? You just have no idea how funny that is. As for agenda...I do generally agree with the aims and objectives of the Bush administration in the ME...I recognize and abhor the mistakes in execution and implementation in pursuit of those objectives...I abhor a number of Bush's domestic policies (lack of courage/commitment on fiscal matters, and others)...so no, I am not a Bush apologist.

It seems that because the WB's administration could not get OBL, they are trying to make KSM the bigger man to get, to save face. The presidential elections are coming, the neocons needs to show something positive in their "war on terror"......So KSM? pile on him, why not!

Ah, yes, resorting to the consipiracy theory approach. How old are you? Still a sophomore, eh?

 

[Francaisforever]

oldreliable....."...I do generally agree with the aims and objectives of the Bush administration in the ME...I recognize and abhor the mistakes in execution and implementation in pursuit of those objectives"......

So because you agree with W's policy in the ME then you will push the neocons agenda and try to induce others to take the propaganda as facts?! The fact of the matter is that whatever this administration has said from the beginning never paned out or were just plain lies. So one more cooked up document won't tarnish its credibilty anymore that it already is......eh?

 

[Francaisforever]

Fair enough. Lets take a previous prisoner's statement as an exemplar. This is the statement of Moazzam Begg, a Pakistan/UK national incarcerated in Gitmo. This statement was authored by Begg while he was still incarcerated in Guantanamo and dated 12 July 2004.
Full Statement: I, Moazzam Begg, Demand to Be Freed From Guantanamo

<snippet>


<snippet>


<snippet>


Epilogue: Begg and four other British prisoners were released from Guantanamo on 27 January 2005 after spending over three years in US military custody.
BBC NEWS | UK | At-a-glance: Guantanamo Bay Britons

So you see Francaisforever, your argument that KSM would not avail himself of the opportunity to claim torture for fear of retribution is not vindicated. Clearly, prisoners have indeed claimed torture at Gitmo and these prisoners were subsequently released.

While I believe that KSM was indeed tortured during his incarceration (waterboarding), he clearly states that he was not authoring the incriminating tribunal hearing statement (OP Post# 1) under duress.

With all due respect, who the hell is Moazzam Begg?

I think KSM is much more of a prominent figure in the al qaida movement. Wasn't he nbr 2 or 3 of OBL? So 1) I doubt that he will go anywhere as long as he is alive and 2) I think because of his position in al qaida, he will get a different "treatment" than most of the gitmo dudes got. As for "he clearly state", again, he will say anything to keep the rest of his life on the "pleasant" side, if he actually is saying anything at all. Has anyone beside its interogators seen KSM the past few years?

 

[oldreliable67]

oldreliable....."...I do generally agree with the aims and objectives of the Bush administration in the ME...I recognize and abhor the mistakes in execution and implementation in pursuit of those objectives"......

So because you agree with W's policy in the ME then you will push the neocons agenda and try to induce others to take the propaganda as facts?! The fact of the matter is that whatever this administration has said from the beginning never paned out or were just plain lies. So one more cooked up document won't tarnish its credibilty anymore that it already is......eh?

I'm not "pushing" anything. You presume the KSM confession to be propaganda. Thats certainly your choice. But have you anything more substantive to base that choice on than your mere dislike of the Bush administration? You, like everyone, should most certainly decide for yourself what you wish to believe or not believe, but wouldn't it be to your advantage to base your judgment on more empirical evidence, on testimony that is consistent with independently and objectively provided research? As compared to latching onto a convenient conspiracy theory, choosing instead something supported by corroboration of key facts and events seems a much more intelligent and pragmatic approach, but hey, thats just me.

With respect to the "neocons agenda", haven't you been keeping up? Perhaps you should count up how many so-called "neocons" there are in the Bush administration now and report back.

 

[Francaisforever]

I'm not "pushing" anything. You presume the KSM confession to be propaganda. Thats certainly your choice. But have you anything more substantive to base that choice on than your mere dislike of the Bush administration? You, like everyone, should most certainly decide for yourself what you wish to believe or not believe, but wouldn't it be to your advantage to base your judgment on more empirical evidence, on testimony that is consistent with independently and objectively provided research? As compared to latching onto a convenient conspiracy theory, choosing instead something supported by corroboration of key facts and events seems a much more intelligent and pragmatic approach, but hey, thats just me.

With respect to the "neocons agenda", haven't you been keeping up? Perhaps you should count up how many so-called "neocons" there are in the Bush administration now and report back.

I think you nailed it perfectly........"but wouldn't it be to your advantage to base your judgment on more empirical evidence, on testimony that is consistent with independently and objectively provided research?"............Where is the testimony independently and objectively provided? I think posting something by the US army hardly falls into that category. It is pretty weird that KSM is suddenly admitting all those things, after 2 years of captivity. Now it makes capturing OBL rely futile......things start to get brighter for the bush administration

 

[oldreliable67]

I think you nailed it perfectly........"but wouldn't it be to your advantage to base your judgment on more empirical evidence, on testimony that is consistent with independently and objectively provided research?"............Where is the testimony independently and objectively provided? I think posting something by the US army hardly falls into that category.

One good reference was provided to you earlier in the thread -- if you are sufficiently interested, go back and re-read my posts and you will find it. There are others; if you find yourself sufficiently motivated to abandon your predilection for conspiracy theories, I'll be happy to provide them.

It is pretty weird that KSM is suddenly admitting all those things, after 2 years of captivity.

I strongly suspect that KSM's interrogation process was not akin to a light switch: suddenly "on" after two years. Rather, it seems more logical that the interrogators gathered information bits and pieces at a time, corroborating and cross-checking his testimony whenever and wherever possible with that obtained from other detainees (e.g., Hambali, Attash, et al) and the physical evidence provided by evidence recovered from computers, travel documents, receipts, etc., and re-visiting the testimony time and again with KSM until as many discrepancies as possible were eliminated. The transcript represents the ultimate product of that laborious and time-consuming process. Hardly a case of "suddenly" anything.

Now it makes capturing OBL rely futile......things start to get brighter for the bush administration

No. Capturing OBL is still very important. The capture of those to whom he previously delegated responsibility does not mean that OBL's stature among radical Islamic terrorist has diminished. It means that OBL will be seeking others to take their place.

IMO, whatever political value, if any, the capture of KSM had for the Bush administration was realized long ago, relatively soon after his capture. That has come and gone. But thats just my opinion -- which I suggest seems to be confirmed by the relative lack of attention the KSM confession has drawn on the political front. Just my opinion -- YMMV.

 

[Tashah]

With all due respect, who the hell is Moazzam Begg?

I'll give you some free advice. The next time you feel the urge to quibble with me, do the requisite homework beforehand.

I think KSM is much more of a prominent figure in the al qaida movement. Wasn't he nbr 2 or 3 of OBL? So 1) I doubt that he will go anywhere as long as he is alive and 2) I think because of his position in al qaida, he will get a different "treatment" than most of the gitmo dudes got. As for "he clearly state", again, he will say anything to keep the rest of his life on the "pleasant" side, if he actually is saying anything at all. Has anyone beside its interogators seen KSM the past few years?

KSM isn't going anywhere. He's a lifer and he knows it. That's precisely why he has nothing whatsoever to gain by lying. Although he may have felt compelled by ego to embellish a bit, what he stated is a fairly accurate account of his terrorist portfolio and activities.

 

[Francaisforever]

I'll give you some free advice. The next time you feel the urge to quibble with me, do the requisite homework beforehand.


KSM isn't going anywhere. He's a lifer and he knows it. That's precisely why he has nothing whatsoever to gain by lying. Although he may have felt compelled by ego to embellish a bit, what he stated is a fairly accurate account of his terrorist portfolio and activities.

........"I'll give you some free advice. The next time you feel the urge to quibble with me, do the requisite homework beforehand."................

It seems that you are a little lost in your delusion of grandeur. I'll tell you what, if that makes you happy, next time I will call you "your majesty" :rofl


......"what he stated is a fairly accurate account of his terrorist portfolio and activities."........

Says who? No one but its interrogators have seen KSM.

......."That's precisely why he has nothing whatsoever to gain by lying."......

That is pure supposition.