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Key Russian warship 'severely' damaged in the Black Sea

EnigmaO01 said:
Holy Shiite! That's a lot of crew!
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Depending on how long it took for the Russian fleet to send in rescue crews, a lot of sailors could have died from hypothermia even if they managed to jump ship before it sank. And I imagine more than a few got sucked down after the cruiser sank if they did not manage to don their life vests in time.
 
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There are sharks in the Black Sea!
 
Hamish Howl said:
538 officers and enlisted.

Last I heard, 54 were recovered.
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I wonder if the Russians came clean on the sinking due to the fact that satellite photos would prove they were lying?
 
NewfieMom said:
OK. I see That Turkey closed the Bosporus to warships under The Montreux Convention. I still do not know whether that makes it impossible for Russia to use warships launched from Russian ports into The Black Sea.

english.ahram.org.eg

Turkey blocks warships from Bosphorus, Dardanelles - Diplomacy - War in Ukraine

Turkey said Monday it was blocking warships from the key Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits in line with a convention that gives it control over the passage of military vessels in the strategic area.
english.ahram.org.eg english.ahram.org.eg
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My understanding is that in case of conflict in the Black Sea (between two or more states having shores there) only those ships are allowed in by Turkey that have a home port there and are subsequently returning.

By that measure Russian vessels from the Baltic, the Barents or the Pacific should be refused entry.

We'll have to wait and see whether that rule is actuallly adhered to.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
I wonder if the Russians came clean on the sinking due to the fact that satellite photos would prove they were lying?
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Meanwhile rumors that the Kremlin is going to rename her "Kursk" remain un-evidenced so far.:)
 
MaryP said:
It can be replaced IF Turkey allows one of its counterparts currently in the Mediterranean to sail through the Bosporus Straits. We'll see what Turkey is made of.
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Not going to happen. Treaty prevents it. Montreux Convention.
Hamish Howl said:
538 officers and enlisted.

Last I heard, 54 were recovered.
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Where did you get that figure? It doesn't seem plausible.
 
NewfieMom said:
I heard on MSNBC tonight that The Moskva was hit by missiles designed by Ukraine itself, not by ones supplied by foreign powers. I came to Debate Politics to see if there were any good threads about the sinking of the Moskva and was pleased to find this one. (Litwin also posted one, but Rogue Valley alluded to the missiles Ukraine used.) Here is some more information I found about the missiles. I can understand why the Ukrainians would be proud!


"What are Neptune missiles?

RK-360MT Neptunes are mobile anti-ship cruise missile capable of destroying targets within a range of 300 km.

The 16-ft long engine-powered missiles can travel at speeds of up to 560mph (900 km/h) and at heights of between nine and 30ft above the surface.

The weapons, which are able to be mounted on ships, by land and by air launchers, were formally adopted by the Ukrainian Armed Forces in August, 2020.

Weighing 870 kg and carrying a 150kg warhead, they are capable of destroying targets of up to 5,000 tons, using a radar-homing guidance to home in on enemy ships.

The blog BMPD run by Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) an independent Russian research organisation, reports that one Neptune division normally has six USPU-360 launchers capable of firing a salvo of the 24 anti-ship missiles.
When did Ukraine get them?

In March, 2021, Ukraine beefed up its coastal defences against Russia when its navy obtained the first units of the cruise missile system.

The navy’s top commanding officer, Rear Admiral Oleksiy Neizhpapa, said at the time: “This system was designed to defend Ukraine in the Azov and the Black seas.

'This will be Ukraine’s missile shield in the sea.'

The Neptune system was designed by Kyiv-based defence manufacturer LUCH Design Bureau, from which Ukraine’s Ministry of Defence ordered its first batch of the missiles.

A project to develop the weapons was launched in 2014 after Ukraine lost nearly 80 percent of its naval vessels following Russia’s annexation of Crimea.

According to the Kyiv Post newspaper, Ukraine’s military had planned to put three divisions of Neptune cruise missile systems into service by 2025 along the Black and Azov seas coastline, with one of the batteries on permanent standby duty."

MSN

www.msn.com
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I think part of the timing of Russia's attack was to take the coastline before these were fully operational. Only those below Putin know how competent their forces are (since no one will admit weakness to him).
 
Russia does not have a "blue sea" navy capable of sustained surface operations at sea. It does have a number of submarines, however, that can operate for extended periods. It moved most of its fleet into the Black Sea prior to the invasion, adding a number of ships not normally resident in the Black Sea, so its complement of vessels is fairly large.

According to pre-war propaganda, it has 12 ships capable of firing Kalibr missiles. Most have a range of about 300 kilometers (160-190 miles), think Seattle to Portland Oregon. That range limitation is why moving them farther from the coast is so significant.

The Black Sea is about twice the size of the Great Lakes combined, for comparison, or about 168,496 mi² (the Sea of Azov adds 10,000 mi²), or about the size of California.

Black-Sea.jpg
 
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NWRatCon said:
Where did you get that figure? It doesn't seem plausible.
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I found it. Lithuania reported a Turkish vessel rescued 54 in the early hours of April 14. The ship had a complement of 485 (66 officers). The captain was apparently killed in the initial attack, according to sources. It is unknown how many were rescued by other vessels. US initial estimates were 125-150 likely fatalities. If it were under tow, likely few were aboard when it sank, but... it is the Russian navy.

Moskva was the only ship capable of long-range air defense in the fleet, according to naval expert sources. That would explain why the fleet skedaddled.
 
The captain of a Turkish ship said he was able to rescue 54 Moskva sailors at 2am and by 3am the Moskva had disappeared under the waves.
 
NWRatCon said:
Not going to happen. Treaty prevents it. Montreux Convention.
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It seemed more sqishy than that to me when I read about it. But maybe that's because countries don't always comply with agreements.
 
Rogue Valley said:
The captain of a Turkish ship said he was able to rescue 54 Moskva sailors at 2am and by 3am the Moskva had disappeared under the waves.
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Wow. So no evacuation at all?
 
NWRatCon said:
I found it. Lithuania reported a Turkish vessel rescued 54 in the early hours of April 14. The ship had a complement of 485 (66 officers). The captain was apparently killed in the initial attack, according to sources. It is unknown how many were rescued by other vessels. US initial estimates were 125-150 likely fatalities. If it were under tow, likely few were aboard when it sank, but... it is the Russian navy.

Moskva was the only ship capable of long-range air defense in the fleet, according to naval expert sources. That would explain why the fleet skedaddled.
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That was some wild night if its true there was a bad storm.
 
MaryP said:
Wow. So no evacuation at all?
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When the Turkish ship arrived, the Moskva was already perpendicular on her side.

The Turks probably pulled sailors from the water and then backed off so they wouldn't get sucked under when the Moskva went down.

But this is still conjecture, and Moscow certainly won't come clean.
 
MaryP said:
That was some wild night if its true there was a bad storm.
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It was a storm... of hellfire! In the form of Neptune himself!
 
I cannot attest to the reliability of this report, as I'm unfamiliar with the source, but the description of the manning of the ship and order of battle seems credible. Moscow has confirmed the Captain's death.

More than just her crew may have been lost. As the Moskva was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet it is likely that a considerable number of the command staff of the fleet were aboard the ship at the time it was struck by the Neptune missiles. We may be hearing about more casualties among high-ranking Russian naval officers in the coming days.

It is well known that Russian ships are Brass-Heavy with as much as 20% of the crew being officers. On a flagship like the Moskva, it would not be unusual for several officers of captain rank to be aboard as liaison staff for admirals ashore in Sevastopol. Eager for combat assignments and the medals that tend to go with them, there is a good chance that the crew of the Moskva had even more officers aboard of high rank wanting sea time, combat pay, and to earn a place in the line for medals and awards from the Kremlin.

There are unconfirmed rumors that the Admiral of the Black Sea Fleet, Igor Osipov has been fired or even arrested and taken to Moscow. DEEP SIX: KREMLIN CONFIRMS CAPTAIN OF THE MOSKVA KILLED, 450 CREWMEMBERS MAY BE DEAD (Sofrep)
 
Yesterday, Russia announced it had used Kalibr sea-based long-range cruise missiles to hit the factory which Ukraine's state weapons manufacturer Ukroboronprom says produced Neptune missiles.

A workshop and an administrative building at the Vizar Zhulyany Machine-Building Plant in the Kyiv suburb of Vyshneve near the international Zhuliany airport were seriously damaged.

Three people were injured.
 
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