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Kenosha Shooting: A Tale Of Two Comments

Lutherf

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This is from a local alderman:

I am absolutely heartbroken and frustrated," said Alderman Anthony Kennedy about Sunday's police shooting of Jacob Blake.
...
"I'm a 53-year-old Black man in America," he said. "I can't not be affected by this, but I also have a responsibility to let the system work."
...
"I'm not afraid of people asking hard questions, and I'll try my best to give answers. We can have our separate opinions, but we can't have separate facts. Let's remember all that makes our community special and not let others take that from us.

"I have to believe in the process because the alternative is anarchy, and I can't believe in that."

This is the governor:

"Jacob Blake was shot in the back multiple times, in broad daylight, in Kenosha. Kathy and I join his family, friends and neighbors in hoping earnestly that he will not succumb to his injuries. While we do not have all the details yet, what we know for certain is he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or in our country.

We stand with all those who have and continue to demand justice, equality and accountability for Black lives in our country -- lives like those of George Floyd, of Breonna Taylor, Tony Robinson, Denise Hamilton, Earnest Lacy, and Sylville Smith. And we stand against excessive use of force and immediate escalation when engaging with Black Wisconsinites.

I hve said all along that although we must offer our empathy, equally important is our action. In the coming days, we will demand just that of elected officials in our state who have failed to recognize the racism in our state and our country for far too long.

I commend Alderman Kennedy for at least trying to be a moderate, sensible voice even while standing directly in the arms of the community. The governor, however, appears to be speaking the same political claptrap that we always hear these days. One guy is trying to save his community from self destruction and the other is handing them excuses for burning it all down.
 

Noodlegawd

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I'm sure it's too much to ask the governor, until the facts are actually available, to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has committed himself to an tough, dangerous, unpleasant, and low-paying job in service of his community, over that of a guy who has violent priors, an outstanding arrest warrant for sexual assault, and who just got done fighting with police and resisting arrest.
 

Lutherf

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I'm sure it's too much to ask the governor, until the facts are actually available, to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has committed himself to an tough, dangerous, unpleasant, and low-paying job in service of his community, over that of a guy who has violent priors, an outstanding arrest warrant for sexual assault, and who just got done fighting with police and resisting arrest.

There still isn't enough information in public to be making a rational determination one way or the other with the shooting.

I was just watching a live feed of the protests and there was a rather significant shooting that happened maybe half an hour ago. Near as I can tell there were three shot and transported. Locals were right on scene and law enforcement was there in a minute. Watching the footage of what happened and listening to the comments as it was happening and then the discussion after...nobody knows what went down and everyone saw something different. That's likely not a lot different with the incident that started all this.
 

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I commend Alderman Kennedy for at least trying to be a moderate, sensible voice even while standing directly in the arms of the community. The governor, however, appears to be speaking the same political claptrap that we always hear these days. One guy is trying to save his community from self destruction and the other is handing them excuses for burning it all down.

Orrrr one is trying to tamp down the long suppressed outrage in the here and now (practical tactical)

The other seeking an end to the continual refusal to address the long term issue that never seems to get any serious attention or search for a long term solution. (strategic)

Just an FYI for those who seem quite clueless- those in the community don't need any excuses from politicians- they live the issue everyday they still draw breath... :peace
 

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Orrrr one is trying to tamp down the long suppressed outrage in the here and now (practical tactical)

The other seeking an end to the continual refusal to address the long term issue that never seems to get any serious attention or search for a long term solution. (strategic)

Just an FYI for those who seem quite clueless- those in the community don't need any excuses from politicians- they live the issue everyday they still draw breath... :peace

Well said. Apparently the author of the OP is unable to comprehend the weight of history that drives the governor's words. They did not, at all, seem like an excuse to "burn it all down". That's an absurd exageration. What he did was let the people know he agrees that change is needed.
 

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This is from a local alderman:



This is the governor:



I commend Alderman Kennedy for at least trying to be a moderate, sensible voice even while standing directly in the arms of the community. The governor, however, appears to be speaking the same political claptrap that we always hear these days. One guy is trying to save his community from self destruction and the other is handing them excuses for burning it all down.

If Alderman Kennedy really believes in the American legal process, and also believes in the US constitutional process and is really frustrated, then he should not have a problem with Black frustrating people exercising their first amendment right. Telling them that they should go home and stay silent until the legal process ends shows a misunderstanding of how the first amendment works. Notice that he gave this advise before even the start of any riot. The idea that we should not protest because some may riot and vandalize personal property makes no sense. With such attitude, not even Martin Luther King could demonstrate because even King could not make sure that some young Blacks would not use the civil rights demonstrations to vandalize properties and loot

From those who know history, here is an interesting part from one of King's demonstrations

King's Last March | King's Last March | APM Reports

The marchers paraded down Beale Street, the famed Memphis thoroughfare where musician W.C. Handy pioneered the blues. King was at the head of the column. Then, a number of young African Americans began breaking storefront windows. James Lawson was leading the march with King. When they turned onto Main, Lawson says, they saw "lengths of police in riot gear across the street."

Remembering a violent crackdown by Memphis police during a February protest march, Lawson feared the police would attack again. He recalls telling King, "You must leave. They are going to break up the march and go after you more than anyone." A reluctant King was led away. The marchers turned around. Then, police attacked with tear gas and clubs. Peaceful marchers were caught up in the same violence as youthful looters.


The link has also an audio of the news reports about the smashing of store windows by young black protesters during that protest..
 
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Lutherf

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If Alderman Kennedy really believes in the American legal process, and also believes in the US constitutional process and is really frustrated, then he should not have a problem with Black frustrating people exercising their first amendment right. Telling them that they should go home and stay silent until the legal process ends shows a misunderstanding of how the first amendment works. Notice that he gave this advise before even the start of any riot. The idea that we should not protest because some may riot and vandalize personal property makes no sense. With such attitude, not even Martin Luther King could demonstrate because even King could not make sure that some young Blacks would not use the civil rights demonstrations to vandalize properties and loot

From those who know history, here is an interesting part from one of King's demonstrations

King's Last March | King's Last March | APM Reports

The marchers paraded down Beale Street, the famed Memphis thoroughfare where musician W.C. Handy pioneered the blues. King was at the head of the column. Then, a number of young African Americans began breaking storefront windows. James Lawson was leading the march with King. When they turned onto Main, Lawson says, they saw "lengths of police in riot gear across the street."

Remembering a violent crackdown by Memphis police during a February protest march, Lawson feared the police would attack again. He recalls telling King, "You must leave. They are going to break up the march and go after you more than anyone." A reluctant King was led away. The marchers turned around. Then, police attacked with tear gas and clubs. Peaceful marchers were caught up in the same violence as youthful looters.


The link has also an audio of the news reports about the smashing of store windows by young black protesters during that protest..

Kennedy didn't tell people not to protest. He asked that they be cognizant of the fact that there is always a certain narrative regarding these incidents and implied that people should know that the narrative isn't always in line with the facts as they come to be known.

You don't need to exercise your first Amendment protections in the middle of a street. That's just like not needing to exercise your Second Amendment protections by carrying an AR through downtown.

-edit-

Kennedy's statement can bee found here - Alderman Anthony Kennedy heartbroken and frustrated by the shooting | Local News | kenoshanews.com
 

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Kennedy didn't tell people not to protest. He asked that they be cognizant of the fact that there is always a certain narrative regarding these incidents and implied that people should know that the narrative isn't always in line with the facts as they come to be known.

You don't need to exercise your first Amendment protections in the middle of a street. That's just like not needing to exercise your Second Amendment protections by carrying an AR through downtown.

I read the following which seems like telling them that they should not protest...

Alderman Anthony Kennedy heartbroken and frustrated by the shooting | Local News | kenoshanews.com


While he understands the anger, he said, “They did not want to hear what I had to say. I told them the victim is alive and that this will be investigated by the state. I asked people to go home and stay safe, but that message did not resonate.”


 

Lutherf

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I read the following which seems like telling them that they should not protest...

Alderman Anthony Kennedy heartbroken and frustrated by the shooting | Local News | kenoshanews.com


While he understands the anger, he said, “They did not want to hear what I had to say. I told them the victim is alive and that this will be investigated by the state. I asked people to go home and stay safe, but that message did not resonate.”



Did you also read the part about how the crowd went from 20-30 to about a hundred and kept getting more and more angry? It was after 11pm. He told them to go home and stay safe because, historically, these "protests" get out of hand over night. I think you are reading stuff into the Alderman's comments that aren't there.
 

pamak

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Did you also read the part about how the crowd went from 20-30 to about a hundred and kept getting more and more angry? It was after 11pm. He told them to go home and stay safe because, historically, these "protests" get out of hand over night. I think you are reading stuff into the Alderman's comments that aren't there.

but does this change the point that Kennedy advised them to go home? He did not tell them to stage a safe protest...
 

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Interpreting the governor's tweets:

He is deeply saddened that there was an opportunity for a police officer to have been stabbed to death and the officer outrageously and criminally refused to allow himself to be murdered.
 

joko104

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It would be far more efficient if the Democratic Party would divulge how many police officers and black people in Democratic run cities they want shot to death and then do a lottery. Those police officers and black people in Democratic run cities would be gathered up and shot by a firing squad. This would be a far less chaotic method than how the Democratic Party is having them murdered now.
 

Lutherf

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but does this change the point that Kennedy advised them to go home? He did not tell them to stage a safe protest...

It was after 11pm! That's pretty much standard advice at that time of day.
 

pamak

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It was after 11pm! That's pretty much standard advice at that time of day.

Standard advice does not fit when there are no standard conditions. Anyway, the article does not make it clear if he wanted to see them avoid doing anything during that particular night or if he wanted to see them wait until they saw the results of the investigation (based on the belief that the system would works...)

And I find strange the belief that the system works when there are obvious structural problems related to the investigation of police violence (for example, having local DAs who usually want to have good relations with the police officers in their district, investigating police violence in their district). So, regardless of the outcome in this or other cases, I see many reasons for asking for broader police reforms and change of many terms in police contracts.
 
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Lutherf

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Standard advice does not fit when there are no standard conditions. Anyway, the article does not make it clear if he wanted to see them avoid doing anything during that particular night or if he wanted to see them wait until they saw the results of the investigation (based on the belief that the system would works...)

And I find strange the belief that the system works when there are obvious structural problems related to the investigation of police violence (for example, having local DAs who usually want to have good relations with the police officers in their district, investigating police violence in their district). So, regardless of the outcome in this or other cases, I see many reasons for asking for broader police reforms and change of many terms in police contracts.

Such is the common theme we hear coming from the left. It's always about how we, as a society, need to change everyone else. It's NEVER about how we, as individuals need to start looking in the mirror and figuring out what we can do to make ourselves better. I guess that explains some of the animosity most lefties have for religion.
 

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Such is the common theme we hear coming from the left. It's always about how we, as a society, need to change everyone else. It's NEVER about how we, as individuals need to start looking in the mirror and figuring out what we can do to make ourselves better. I guess that explains some of the animosity most lefties have for religion.

The issue of personal responsibility does not solve social issues. The Founders of the Constitution established governments to better defend unalienable rights like life because they recognized that the outcome of having people acting as mere individuals would actually harm their rights. So, while personal responsibility is an important element in every social issue , it can never substitute the effect of an effective government. If you do not agree with the above, you need to argue with philosophers like Locke and others who explained why it was necessary to form governments instead of remaining completely autonomous and free in nature to act as responsible individuals. And Locke was not a leftist...
 
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Lutherf

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The issue of personal responsibility does not solve social issues. The Founders of the Constitution established governments to better defend unalienable rights like life because they recognized that the outcome of having people acting as mere individuals would actually harm their rights. So, while personal responsibility is an important element in every social issue , it can never substitute the effect of an effective government. If you do not agree with the above, you need to argue with philosophers like Locke and others who explained why it was necessary to form governments instead of remaining completely autonomous and free in nature to act as responsible individuals. And Locke was not a leftist...

There is a difference between a system of governance which provides a mechanism by which the citizens can defend their rights and one in which the government determines which rights will be defended, when they will be defended, under what circumstances they will be defended and even whether the rights should be allowed to exist or not.
 

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There is a difference between a system of governance which provides a mechanism by which the citizens can defend their rights and one in which the government determines which rights will be defended, when they will be defended, under what circumstances they will be defended and even whether the rights should be allowed to exist or not.

I do not dispute that the type of governance makes a huge difference. My point is to counter the popular among many conservatives notion that personal responsibility is the ultimate answer to every social problem they see. That was never the case which is the reason why humans chose to form governments to better protect their rights.

DOI express similar thoughts inspited by political philosophers like Locke and others...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

If all of us were personally responsible, we would not need to to institute governments to "secure these rights."

So, some cops will not be personally responsible and they will abuse the power vested in them (by the government and with our consent). The answer to such issue will come from a properly functioning govermental structure and not from a collective sense of "persnal responsibility"
 
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Lutherf

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I do not dispute that the type of governance makes a big difference. My point is to counter the popular among many conservatives notion that personal responsibility is the ultimate answer to every social problem they see. That was never the case which is the reason why humans chose to form governments to better protect their rights.

If you want a society then you need a government of some sort. That's been the case for the entire existence of man. Packs of wolves and herds of deer have a basic form of societal structure and rules they abide by as well. Government, in some form, is entirely natural.
 

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If you want a society then you need a government of some sort. That's been the case for the entire existence of man. Packs of wolves and herds of deer have a basic form of societal structure and rules they abide by as well. Government, in some form, is entirely natural.

So, let;s acknoledge also the government's role in securing a person's life from irresponsible cops...
 

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So, let;s acknoledge also the government's role in securing a person's life from irresponsible cops...

The issue we are having with this discussion (not just you and me, but in the universal sense) is that we need to weigh BOTH police behavior and suspect behavior. Actually, we also need to weigh such things as circumstances of the engagement, reason for initiating the engagement, etc.

Just because Bob wasn't dong anything DOES NOT mean that the cops are harassing him if they stop him or call him over. The way I engaged a suspect or person of interest was always dependent on a whole lot of factors. For example, maybe we had been getting complaints about a prowler in a certain neighborhood. We'd patrol that neighborhood a little more regularly and look for people that appeared to be "out of place". For example, if we did a drive through at 2am and spotted someone walking alone that would get our attention. If it appeared that the individual was checking out front doors or side yards that would get more of our attention and we'd likely make a stop. At that point we'd do a "field interview" noting the name, address, gender, age, race, height, weight, identifying characteristics, reasons given for being out, etc. The idea was that if the individual was the prowler the stop might convince them to stop that behavior or, better yet, give up something that would warrant further investigation. Sometimes we'd see the same person with some regularity. Perhaps they liked to drink and would just be walking home from the club. We'd get to know some of the people that way and if we got the same story a few times from a few different interactions we knew that person either was or wasn't a problem. We'd also know that maybe there wasn't a "prowler" in the neighborhood but, instead, that "Bob" occasionally went into someone's side yard to pee on the way home. Now, maybe "Bob" got tired of being "harassed" every night when he was stopped but if he learned to take a leak before leaving the club then "Mrs Smith" wouldn't be thinking she had a prowler in the yard.

Along the same lines, some cops can get overzealous in their approach. I knew guys that would come off like they were ordering someone around when a simple polite request would have been sufficient. Some cops are a lot more nervous about certain engagements than others are. Certain people are more nervous about being engaged by cops than others are. When I was a kid the LAST thing I wanted was to have a cop talking to me. That was partly because there was a good possibility that I had been drinking or had a little weed on me or was somewhere that I didn't need to be. I'd regularly end up in rather bad neighborhoods and took to dressing so that I fit in there. Unfortunately, if I ended up in a better neighborhood I suddenly looked suspicious. I can't really blame cops for stopping me here and there. In hindsight it makes perfect sense. Because I'd get stopped here and there I kind of recognized signs that one cop would be OK to deal with and another needed a different approach. I knew that it was up to me to adapt to the cop's behavior if I wanted that cop to adapt to my behavior.

I keep on hearing about "The Talk" like it's something that only black parents need to do with their kids. Well, ALL parents need to do that and the talk needs to be more than, "Watch out for the cops because they'll shoot you in the back at the drop of a hat!"
 

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The issue we are having with this discussion (not just you and me, but in the universal sense) is that we need to weigh BOTH police behavior and suspect behavior. Actually, we also need to weigh such things as circumstances of the engagement, reason for initiating the engagement, etc.

...

Along the same lines, some cops can get overzealous in their approach. I knew guys that would come off like they were ordering someone around when a simple polite request would have been sufficient. Some cops are a lot more nervous about certain engagements than others are. Certain people are more nervous about being engaged by cops than others are. When I was a kid the LAST thing I wanted was to have a cop talking to me. That was partly because there was a good possibility that I had been drinking or had a little weed on me or was somewhere that I didn't need to be. I'd regularly end up in rather bad neighborhoods and took to dressing so that I fit in there. Unfortunately, if I ended up in a better neighborhood I suddenly looked suspicious. I can't really blame cops for stopping me here and there. In hindsight it makes perfect sense. Because I'd get stopped here and there I kind of recognized signs that one cop would be OK to deal with and another needed a different approach. I knew that it was up to me to adapt to the cop's behavior if I wanted that cop to adapt to my behavior.

I keep on hearing about "The Talk" like it's something that only black parents need to do with their kids. Well, ALL parents need to do that and the talk needs to be more than, "Watch out for the cops because they'll shoot you in the back at the drop of a hat!"

I do not deny that "the talk" and excess police force is an issue for many non-black citizens. I have seen many cases of homeless (often mentally ill who do not even understand what a cop tells them to do) killed because they do not follow directions. Still, I recognize that blacks overepresentation in crime and poverty makes them disproportionally more vulnerable because they have more encounters with police officers and because they are veryyyyy visible because of their skin. And we also have clear evidence from different studies which show that blacks are treated with more suspicion even when they do not commit crimes.

For example:

Study Of KC Metro Traffic Stops Shows Race Deeply Embedded In Police Practice | KCUR 89.3 - NPR in Kansas City. Local news, entertainment and podcasts.

A study of “investigatory” traffic stops — that is, stops that did not result in a citation — by police in Kansas City found that blacks were 2.7 times more likely to be pulled over in an investigatory stop, and five times more likely to be searched.

There are similar types of evidence all over. Even in the NYC we saw federal court ruling that the application of the stop and frisk policies there was unconstitutional and unreasonably zeroed on blacks and minorities.

If a cop is scared or nervous, it should not b an excuse for unreasonable use of force or racial profiling. These people should either leave the police force or become also scared and nervous about the real legal consequences if they choose to be on the safe side by pulling a trigger too easily...
 
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Aunt Antifa

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The issue we are having with this discussion (not just you and me, but in the universal sense) is that we need to weigh BOTH police behavior and suspect behavior. Actually, we also need to weigh such things as circumstances of the engagement, reason for initiating the engagement, etc.

Just because Bob wasn't dong anything DOES NOT mean that the cops are harassing him if they stop him or call him over. The way I engaged a suspect or person of interest was always dependent on a whole lot of factors. For example, maybe we had been getting complaints about a prowler in a certain neighborhood. We'd patrol that neighborhood a little more regularly and look for people that appeared to be "out of place". For example, if we did a drive through at 2am and spotted someone walking alone that would get our attention. If it appeared that the individual was checking out front doors or side yards that would get more of our attention and we'd likely make a stop. At that point we'd do a "field interview" noting the name, address, gender, age, race, height, weight, identifying characteristics, reasons given for being out, etc. The idea was that if the individual was the prowler the stop might convince them to stop that behavior or, better yet, give up something that would warrant further investigation. Sometimes we'd see the same person with some regularity. Perhaps they liked to drink and would just be walking home from the club. We'd get to know some of the people that way and if we got the same story a few times from a few different interactions we knew that person either was or wasn't a problem. We'd also know that maybe there wasn't a "prowler" in the neighborhood but, instead, that "Bob" occasionally went into someone's side yard to pee on the way home. Now, maybe "Bob" got tired of being "harassed" every night when he was stopped but if he learned to take a leak before leaving the club then "Mrs Smith" wouldn't be thinking she had a prowler in the yard.

Along the same lines, some cops can get overzealous in their approach. I knew guys that would come off like they were ordering someone around when a simple polite request would have been sufficient. Some cops are a lot more nervous about certain engagements than others are. Certain people are more nervous about being engaged by cops than others are. When I was a kid the LAST thing I wanted was to have a cop talking to me. That was partly because there was a good possibility that I had been drinking or had a little weed on me or was somewhere that I didn't need to be. I'd regularly end up in rather bad neighborhoods and took to dressing so that I fit in there. Unfortunately, if I ended up in a better neighborhood I suddenly looked suspicious. I can't really blame cops for stopping me here and there. In hindsight it makes perfect sense. Because I'd get stopped here and there I kind of recognized signs that one cop would be OK to deal with and another needed a different approach. I knew that it was up to me to adapt to the cop's behavior if I wanted that cop to adapt to my behavior.

I keep on hearing about "The Talk" like it's something that only black parents need to do with their kids. Well, ALL parents need to do that and the talk needs to be more than, "Watch out for the cops because they'll shoot you in the back at the drop of a hat!"

2 items:

You can't blame cops for stopping you looked suspicious. What happens when the cops decide it's mostly Black people that look suspicious in their own neighborhoods? Implicit bias is a thing.

It seems we are always asked to view things from the oppressor's view. Can you imagine how scary it must be for a heavily armed person wearing a bullet proof vest, mace, tasers, radio to call other people with even more stuff.

And this is part of the problem: it's hard to have an honest convo about policing in the country because of decades of media narratives about hero cops and worshipping law enforcement. There is a wide swath of the population that refuses to entertain any cynicism about cops.
 

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It would be far more efficient if the Democratic Party would divulge how many police officers and black people in Democratic run cities they want shot to death and then do a lottery. Those police officers and black people in Democratic run cities would be gathered up and shot by a firing squad. This would be a far less chaotic method than how the Democratic Party is having them murdered now.

You use such events for your own political agenda and then project it back on alleged Democrats. It's sad to see you Americans so easily manipulated into divisive dialogue and conflict against one another.

It is called divide and conquer.

You really think your fellow American is who you should be hissing at? Come on Jocko, yer giving Vlad exactly what he wants.

This is a moderate like you next door In Canada who is neutral on your political parties saying man you guys need to tone it down and find something to unite you guys or it just gives Russia and China exactly what they want.
 
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