Kennedy on Bush's speech to vets:

[KCConservative]

What does supporting our troops have to do with thanking the men and women who have served their country and are no longer in the service?

How does labeling those who question the intelligence leading up to the war "irresponsible" defend the troops that are currently fighting the war on terror? Can you explain that to me?

This was about those who have served and are no longer on active duty.

It was a desperate attempt to defend himself. Totally and utterly desperate (which is humorous, although at the veterans' expense).

I spoke with eight veterans who strongly disagree with you.

 

[aps]

And I keep asking for you to present thokse "facts." Will you be supporting your claim anytime soon? Rather than tell us about "dirty plays", why not show them?

Ummm, aren't we waiting for the Senate Intelligence Committee to check into this issue?

 

[aps]

I spoke with eight veterans who strongly disagree with you.

Wow. Eight veterans. I work for the Dept. of Veterans Affairs, so I am guessing I have contact with a little more than eight veterans.

 

[KCConservative]

Ummm, aren't we waiting for the Senate Intelligence Committee to check into this issue?

Is this a clever way of saying you base your opinions on nothing? So if it hasn't been checked into, then you're just spouting rhetoric, huh?

 

[KCConservative]

Wow. Eight veterans. I work for the Dept. of Veterans Affairs, so I am guessing I have contact with a little more than eight veterans.

And have you gotten their opinions?

 

[aps]

Is this a clever way of saying you base your opinions on nothing? So if it hasn't been checked into, then you're just spouting rhetoric, huh?

It's called deductive reasoning. I am entitled to have an opinion based upon evidence I have seen and heard, aren't I? That is the point of having those who have access to the intelligence look into this issue. If you are so sure that Bush did not mislead us, then this should not be a concern to you, right? LOL

 

[python416]

And I keep asking for you to present those "facts." Will you be supporting your claim anytime soon? Rather than tell us about "dirty plays", why not show them?

Gee there are so many clips, I don't know which one to pick. How about:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/09/cheney.interview/

 

[aps]

And have you gotten their opinions?

Some of them, yes. You're going to get veterans who support your stance and those who support my stance.

Regardless, using a day to celebrate those who have served our country as a partisan attack is pretty darn pathetic. Although I am not remotely surprised.

 

[Iriemon]

Iriemon, let me try and bring you up to speed. Dan Rather lost his job for perpetuating this lie. This smear, like all of the others, has never been shown to be true. The left tried to make this stick during both elections. Both times, it failed mizserably. Even John Kerry told his supporters to drop it because it wasn't true.

Which part of this "smear" is not true?

That during Vietnam the NG was used by those with influencial connections to avoid going to Vietnam? Because NG units were not deployed to Vietnam?

That Bush's daddy was a Texas Congressman at the time Bush got the choice position in the TX ANG?

The Bush joined the NG when his draft number was coming up?

That Bush did not want to go to Vietnam and that was why he joined the NG?

That Bush was able to get this position without having to wait?

That the fighter unit Bush was with was known as the "Champagne Unit"?

That Bush took off during the latter part his "service" in the ANG to go campaiging for his dad's friends? (And lost his flight qualification)?

The "partying" part I admit was my conjecture, I'll admit. But not without reasonable basis, given Bush's rep at the time.

Your claim that Dan Rather lost his job perpetuating this lie is a lie. The issue with rather involved the accuracy of one document related to this, afterwards the "liberal" media focused entirely on that and dropped the issue of Bush's service in the Champagne unit.

 

[python416]

It's called deductive reasoning. I am entitled to have an opinion based upon evidence I have seen and heard, aren't I? That is the point of having those who have access to the intelligence look into this issue. If you are so sure that Bush did not mislead us, then this should not be a concern to you, right? LOL

Deductive reasoning is a lot to ask for from an Ann Coulter drone.

Just look at his signature:

Remember America, the left wants the United States to lose the war on terror so as to regain political power. Political power trumps national security in the leftist playbook. This spits on the brave men and women who serve in the military fighting for a stable middle east and a safer homeland. Slander before truth. Hate before logic.

The only thing missing from it is a claim that democrats like to kill babies, and burn your tax dollars, and then you'd have to entire Ann Coulter platform of lies in one paragraph.

 

[KCConservative]

Which part of this "smear" is not true?

Typical liberal debate tactic. This was your claim, Iriemon, not mine. It is not my resposibility to prove something didn't happen. You have the burden.

 

[Iriemon]

Typical liberal debate tactic. This was your claim, Iriemon, not mine. It is not my resposibility to prove something didn't happen. You have the burden.

Vietnam revealed a negative aspect of relying on reservists. For largely domestic political reasons, President Johnson chose not to mobilize most of the nation's reserve forces. The 1968 call-ups were only token affairs. Johnson's decision to avoid a major reserve mobilization was opposed by the senior leadership of both the active duty military establishment and the reserve forces, but to no avail. The Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men. Military leaders questioned the wisdom of depending on reserve forces that might not be available except in dire emergencies.
http://www.ang.af.mil/history/Forging.asp


The Washington Post reports that Bush joined the National Guard 12 days before his student deferment would have expired, and that in spite of his low score on the pilot's aptitude test (25, the lowest score allowed), and in spite of the waiting list that some kids spent years on, Bush was sworn in as an airman the day he applied.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm


In a 1994 interview, Bush stated that his reason for joining the guard was a standard one: "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/George-W.-Bush-military-service-controversy


"I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."
Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 1989

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
Dallas Morning News, Feb. 25, 1990

"I don't want to play like I was somebody out there marching when I wasn't. It was either Canada or the service. ... Somebody said the Guard was looking for pilots. All I know is, there weren't that many people trying to be pilots."
Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Nov. 29, 1998
http://codename-monkey.blogspot.com/2004_02_22_codename-monkey_archive.html


Bush checked “do not volunteer” for overseas duty
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/3-Grade_Determination.pdf
Page 22: Checked do not volunteer for overseas duty box

Original version released
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/03/05_Volunteer_Sheet_BUSH.jpg


It was May 27, 1968, at the height of the Vietnam War. Bush was 12 days away from losing his student deferment from the draft at a time when Americans were dying in combat at the rate of 350 a week. The unit Bush wanted to join offered him the chance to fulfill his military commitment at a base in Texas. It was seen as an escape route from Vietnam by many men his age, and usually had a long waiting list.
http://www.hereinreality.com/commander.html

Bush had scored only 25 percent on a "pilot aptitude" test, the lowest acceptable grade. But his father was then a congressman from Houston, and the commanders of the Texas Guard clearly had an appreciation of politics.
Bush was sworn in as an airman the same day he applied.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard ... and I'm not necessarily proud of that, but I did it,” Barnes, a Democrat, said. "I became more ashamed of myself than I've ever been because it was the worst thing I did - help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get in the National Guard," Barnes added. "I'm very sorry of that and I'm very ashamed of it and I apologize to the voters of Texas for that."
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_5148.shtml

 

[Navy Pride]

Navy Pride, he certainly should be defending himself, but to choose Veteran's Day to defend himself is truly pathetic. It really is.

aps, that is your opinion, I don't happen to agree with it.........If the left can place all the blame on him for a natural disaster like Katrina and ignore the incompetence of the mayor and governor then all bets are off........

 

[KCConservative]

Vietnam revealed a negative aspect of relying on reservists. For largely domestic political reasons, President Johnson chose not to mobilize most of the nation's reserve forces. The 1968 call-ups were only token affairs. Johnson's decision to avoid a major reserve mobilization was opposed by the senior leadership of both the active duty military establishment and the reserve forces, but to no avail. The Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men. Military leaders questioned the wisdom of depending on reserve forces that might not be available except in dire emergencies.
http://www.ang.af.mil/history/Forging.asp


The Washington Post reports that Bush joined the National Guard 12 days before his student deferment would have expired, and that in spite of his low score on the pilot's aptitude test (25, the lowest score allowed), and in spite of the waiting list that some kids spent years on, Bush was sworn in as an airman the day he applied.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm


In a 1994 interview, Bush stated that his reason for joining the guard was a standard one: "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/George-W.-Bush-military-service-controversy


"I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."
Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 1989

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
Dallas Morning News, Feb. 25, 1990

"I don't want to play like I was somebody out there marching when I wasn't. It was either Canada or the service. ... Somebody said the Guard was looking for pilots. All I know is, there weren't that many people trying to be pilots."
Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Nov. 29, 1998
http://codename-monkey.blogspot.com/2004_02_22_codename-monkey_archive.html


Bush checked “do not volunteer” for overseas duty
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/3-Grade_Determination.pdf
Page 22: Checked do not volunteer for overseas duty box

Original version released
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/03/05_Volunteer_Sheet_BUSH.jpg


It was May 27, 1968, at the height of the Vietnam War. Bush was 12 days away from losing his student deferment from the draft at a time when Americans were dying in combat at the rate of 350 a week. The unit Bush wanted to join offered him the chance to fulfill his military commitment at a base in Texas. It was seen as an escape route from Vietnam by many men his age, and usually had a long waiting list.
http://www.hereinreality.com/commander.html

Bush had scored only 25 percent on a "pilot aptitude" test, the lowest acceptable grade. But his father was then a congressman from Houston, and the commanders of the Texas Guard clearly had an appreciation of politics.
Bush was sworn in as an airman the same day he applied.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard ... and I'm not necessarily proud of that, but I did it,” Barnes, a Democrat, said. "I became more ashamed of myself than I've ever been because it was the worst thing I did - help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get in the National Guard," Barnes added. "I'm very sorry of that and I'm very ashamed of it and I apologize to the voters of Texas for that."
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_5148.shtml

Excellent work. Nice job. Now, which one of those are unlawful?

Oh, and another question. Why is the National Guard such a second rate way of serving when discussing the president? Is there something you want to tell National Guardsmen around the country? I seem to remember them being an invaluable rescue resource in the days following Katrina.

 

[Iriemon]

Excellent work. Nice job. Now, which one of those are unlawful?

LOL! "Typical conservative debate tactic." Misrepresent what your opponent claimed! I never said it was unlawful! LOL!

Oh, and another question. Why is the National Guard such a second rate way of serving when discussing the president? Is there something you want to tell National Guardsmen around the country? I seem to remember them being an invaluable rescue resource in the days following Katrina.

I don't want to tell them anything. During the Vietnam getting into the NG was a way that affluent white kids dodged the war. It is not true today, Bush has those NG reserves doing full time duty in Iraq; probably to create the impression that NG duty is not a combat dodge like it was when he did it.

 

[KCConservative]

I never said it was unlawful!

So what does that leave us with? Bush served his country in the National Guard and did nothing unlawful. What was your point again? Natioanl Guard service is second rate in some way, is that it?

 

[Iriemon]

So what does that leave us with? Bush served his country in the National Guard and did nothing unlawful. What was your point again? Natioanl Guard service is second rate in some way, is that it?

No, here is what it leaves us with, for those with short term memory issues:

Bush was a veteran of dodging the Vietnam War. During Vietnam, the NG was a good way for kids with connections to avoid combat and getting sent to Vietnam, without having to run to Canada. This fact was known, and there were typically long waiting lists to get into the NG in those days -- it sure beat getting drafted and your ass ending up in the jungle. When Bush's draft number was coming, Bush, whose daddy was then a Texas congressman, was able to get into the the Texas NG "Champagne Unit" with no waiting, and thereby dodged the war and having to face actual combat. He spent some time tooling around in jets for a little while, before taking off to do some campaigning and partying.

 

[KCConservative]

No, here is what it leaves us with, for those with short term memory issues:

Bush was a veteran of dodging the Vietnam War. During Vietnam, the NG was a good way for kids with connections to avoid combat and getting sent to Vietnam, without having to run to Canada. This fact was known, and there were typically long waiting lists to get into the NG in those days -- it sure beat getting drafted and your ass ending up in the jungle. When Bush's draft number was coming, Bush, whose daddy was then a Texas congressman, was able to get into the the Texas NG "Champagne Unit" with no waiting, and thereby dodged the war and having to face actual combat. He spent some time tooling around in jets for a little while, before taking off to do some campaigning and partying.

All of it lawful and honorable. I'm still missing your point. Do you think this will keep him from getting re-elected?

 

[Iriemon]

All of it lawful and honorable.

Lawful it was; how honorable it was is a matter of opinion.

 

[Stu Ghatze]

Even Fox has his approval sinking at 36%. Are they part of your tinfoil hat fanatsy of a left-wing media conspiracy?

Huh huh, ..."MY" tin foil hat!:smile: Say...you humor me, & imagine that Fox's polls have Bush sinking, ..& yet LOOK at just HOW the OTHER mainstream news networks cannot even carry Fox's jockstrap.

Worse yet, ...their approval ratings are as bad as Bush's, ..in fact worse!

The media, ..& their liberal democratic party friends PLAN, & LIVE their lives by polls, & IF it were ONLY up to the polls Kerry would have won hands down, ..IF THE POLLS REALLY WERE AN HONEST CROSS SECTION, ..which of COURSE THEY never are!

No SMALL Co-incidence EITHER, ..IT IS EXACTLY HOW THE LIBERALS OPERATE AS WELL w/REGARD TO SUPREME COURT NOMINEES BY "THEIR" VIEW OF POPULARITY after the good old DEMOCRATS GET FINISHED DISTORTING, & DESTROYING the THE SUPREME COURT NOMINEE's RECORD!

And....then the unmitigated "GALL" of the liberals making the FALSE charge that THEY represent the mainstream voters!:smile:

 

[MSgt]

Wow. What a rediculous thread. While dismissing any operations that involved less than combat roles, I list before you my combat duties:

I am a veteran of Somalia = 1993
I am a veteran of Haiti = 1993
I am a veteran of OIF = 2003
I am a veteran of OIF II = 2004

My father is a Marine Vietnam Veteran of 71/72 and retired in 2001. My father and I make note of the man's military service (Despite my laughing at all things National Guard) and I give President Bush the right to speak on my behalf. I did far less for a past President.

There....argue that.:2usflag:

 

[KCConservative]

Lawful it was; how honorable it was is a matter of opinion.

A matter of opinion. Exactly! How's that impeachment coming?

 

[KCConservative]

Wow. What a rediculous thread. While dismissing any operations that involved less than combat roles, I list before you my combat duties:

I am a veteran of Somalia = 1993
I am a veteran of Haiti = 1993
I am a veteran of OIF = 2003
I am a veteran of OIF II = 2004

My father is a Marine Vietnam Veteran of 71/72 and retired in 2001. My father and I make note of the man's military service (Despite my laughing at all things National Guard) and I give President Bush the right to speak on my behalf. I did far less for a past President.

There....argue that.:2usflag:

You're a good man, GySgt. I appreciate your service and that of our current men and women fighting to secure a stable Middle East and a secure homeland.

 

[MSgt]

You're a good man, GySgt. I appreciate your service and that of our current men and women fighting to secure a stable Middle East and a secure homeland.

You're very welcome.

It just strikes me odd how the military chastized Clinton for his lack of military record, while the Democratic Party and adherents paraded around that it doesn't matter.

THEN.....

This same political party and adherents turns and parades around that Bush's military record isn't good enough, while the military largely approves of the man.


Ludiscrous. Only in America you'll find where the freedom to criticize is largely and inconsistantly dependant on what political party the other stands. :roll:

 

[KCConservative]

You're very welcome.

It just strikes me odd how the military chastized Clinton for his lack of military record, while the Democratic Party and adherents paraded around that it doesn't matter.

THEN.....

This same political party and adherents turns and parades around that Bush's military record isn't good enough, while the military largely approves of the man.


Ludiscrous. Only in America you'll find where the freedom to criticize is largely and inconsistantly dependant on what political party the other stands. :roll:

Simple. The democratic rhetoric changes as their power ebbs and flows. They will distort the truth and rewrite history in an effort to regain some power. They want Bush to fail in this war on terror, all for political gain.