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Kansas loses patience with Gov. Brownback's tax cuts

TheDemSocialist

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TOPEKA, Kan. -- After he became Kansas governor in 2011, Sam Brownback slashed personal income taxes on the promise that the deep cuts would trigger a furious wave of hiring and expansion by businesses.
But the "shot of adrenaline" hasn't worked as envisioned, and the state budget has been in crisis ever since. Now many of the same Republicans who helped pass Brownback's plan are in open revolt, refusing to help the governor cut spending so he can avoid rolling back any of his signature tax measures.

If Brownback won't reconsider any of the tax cuts, they say, he will have to figure out for himself how to balance the budget in the face of disappointing revenue.


The predicted job growth from business expansions hasn't happened, leaving the state persistently short of money. Since November, tax collections have fallen about $81 million, or 1.9 percent below the current forecast's predictions.
Last month, Brownback ordered $17 million in immediate reductions to universities and earlier this month delayed $93 million in contributions to pensions for school teachers and community college employees. The state has also siphoned off more than $750 million from highway projects to other parts of the budget over the past two years.
Read more @: Kansas loses patience with Gov. Brownback's tax cuts

The shot of adrenaline that never came. Instead of reimposing the taxes on these 300,000 + businesses Brownback is continuing his "experiment" and now has to cut $300 million in 15 months. A failed policy driven by big money special interests.
 

Van Basten

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The shot of adrenaline that never came. Instead of reimposing the taxes on these 300,000 + businesses Brownback is continuing his "experiment" and now has to cut $300 million in 15 months. A failed policy driven by big money special interests.

You think they'd learn.
 

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The damage Brownback and State Republicans have done to Kansas will take a very long time to undo.
 

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Read more @: Kansas loses patience with Gov. Brownback's tax cuts

The shot of adrenaline that never came. Instead of reimposing the taxes on these 300,000 + businesses Brownback is continuing his "experiment" and now has to cut $300 million in 15 months. A failed policy driven by big money special interests.

Tax cuts are LONG TERM fixes, not short term fixes. They take time and that's what's being whined about. People want their microwave solution that will fall apart at the first sign of trouble, instead of waiting while the slow cooker solution brings about real long term, sustainable results. Like the Reagan tax cuts that gave us both the 1st Bush and Clinton economies. YEs, I know you have 4.098 links to people who will tell you differently, but the fact is that tax cuts help the economy WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN PLACE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE FULL EFFECT.
 

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OrphanSlug

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Tax cuts are LONG TERM fixes, not short term fixes. They take time and that's what's being whined about. People want their microwave solution that will fall apart at the first sign of trouble, instead of waiting while the slow cooker solution brings about real long term, sustainable results. Like the Reagan tax cuts that gave us both the 1st Bush and Clinton economies. YEs, I know you have 4.098 links to people who will tell you differently, but the fact is that tax cuts help the economy WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN PLACE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE FULL EFFECT.

Then you have to agree to either purposefully cause deficits or engage in cuts to spending from existing services levels for the duration of that time. To do neither is fiscally irresponsible, and Brownback and State Republicans have *reacted* to this problem and not acted with any sense of fiscal responsibility because of the tax cut plan. We know that is factual as cuts have been because of the shortfalls, not because of existing plan to do so.

Conclusion, Republicans screwed this up.
 

TheDemSocialist

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Tax cuts are LONG TERM fixes, not short term fixes. They take time and that's what's being whined about. People want their microwave solution that will fall apart at the first sign of trouble, instead of waiting while the slow cooker solution brings about real long term, sustainable results. Like the Reagan tax cuts that gave us both the 1st Bush and Clinton economies. YEs, I know you have 4.098 links to people who will tell you differently, but the fact is that tax cuts help the economy WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN PLACE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE FULL EFFECT.

I love this excuse. Problem is:
1.)The tax cuts when passed, proponents claim it would drastically increase revenue
2.)Claimed this was going to be a "shot of adrenaline". Adrenaline is something that doesnt take a while to kick in
3.)Job growth has not come about of this. Business owners just hold on to the income not "create new jobs"
4.)Revenue has not increased therefore cut, cut, cut, cut. Claimed when passed that revenue would increase therefore no cuts needed, the exact opposite has happened.
 

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I love this excuse. Problem is:
1.)The tax cuts when passed, proponents claim it would drastically increase revenue
2.)Claimed this was going to be a "shot of adrenaline". Adrenaline is something that doesnt take a while to kick in
3.)Job growth has not come about of this. Business owners just hold on to the income not "create new jobs"
4.)Revenue has not increased therefore cut, cut, cut, cut. Claimed when passed that revenue would increase therefore no cuts needed, the exact opposite has happened.

Just because soemone said something stupid doesn't invalidate the fact that tax cuts create long term economic benefits.
 

justabubba

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Just because soemone said something stupid doesn't invalidate the fact that tax cuts create long term economic benefits.

that depends upon whose taxes got cut
if it is a tax reduction for those who will spend their tax savings, an economic stimulation should result
if it is instead targeted to those who will save their tax savings, little, if any, economic stimulus should be expected to follow
 

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Republicans think that if you cut business taxes to the bone that those businesses will run right out and use that tax savings to hire more people, thus creating jobs.

BUT unless the DEMAND increases, businesses won't hire more people. Business A has 100 employees, and pays $100,000 in taxes. Kansas tells Business A it no longer has to pay $100,000 in taxes. Unless DEMAND increases Business A will NOT use that $100,000 in savings to hire 3-4 more employees so they can sit around and do nothing.

Without demand Business A will just pocket the $100,000. To think that just by cutting business taxes will 'create jobs' is a fantasy. They'll just horde the money, which is what they are doing.

All Brownback did was just give his rich friends and business owners more money for their pockets and bank accounts.
 

TheDemSocialist

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Just because soemone said something stupid doesn't invalidate the fact that tax cuts create long term economic benefits.

What long term economic benefits? Also it doesnt help that because of these tax cuts revenue numbers are down and basic government services are having to be cut at record levels..
 

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that depends upon whose taxes got cut
if it is a tax reduction for those who will spend their tax savings, an economic stimulation should result
if it is instead targeted to those who will save their tax savings, little, if any, economic stimulus should be expected to follow

Since we can't control how people spend their money and there will always be those (especially in business) who fall into the first category, then there will always be an economic benefit to tax cuts. Thanks for agreeing with me...
 

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What long term economic benefits? Also it doesnt help that because of these tax cuts revenue numbers are down and basic government services are having to be cut at record levels..

Over the short term, there will be some need to make some adjustments, but over the long term the benefit will FAR outweigh that cost. As business picks up, tax revenue will return and even increase, but it's a long term fix, not the microwave, fall apart is two years fix that increasing taxes brings.

I've said for years that one of the biggest difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals TEND towards more short term based solutions, while conservative TEND towards more long term based solutions. This thread is just more fuel to feed that belief. Now I'll be accused of claiming that every single decision every liberal/conservative is short/long term by people who will ignore the word "TEND" in my post....
 

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The damage Brownback and State Republicans have done to Kansas will take a very long time to undo.

Add in a number of other States where Republicans did this on a wish and a prayer.
Did not work in those States, but Dorothy it will in Kansas. Now click those shoes Dorothy.
Aside from math he did not know Dorothy wore red shoes.
Louisiana is a fiscal mess.
Old saying- wish in one hand, crap in the other, guess what fills up first
 

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Tax cuts are LONG TERM fixes, not short term fixes. They take time and that's what's being whined about. People want their microwave solution that will fall apart at the first sign of trouble, instead of waiting while the slow cooker solution brings about real long term, sustainable results. Like the Reagan tax cuts that gave us both the 1st Bush and Clinton economies. YEs, I know you have 4.098 links to people who will tell you differently, but the fact is that tax cuts help the economy WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN PLACE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE FULL EFFECT.

The flaw in the reasoning on most tax cuts is there is no strings attached. For most subsidies for regular income Americans, there are certain requirements of how money is spent to somewhat ensure it is being used in a way that promotes growth in the area that it is needed. That isn't the case with across the board style tax cuts which have little to no stipulations. Chances are most of the money from the tax cuts actually went to other states like New York where it was invested in hedge funds or commodities and it will have little to no effect on the economy of Kansas. It says a lot when people compare a state tax cut to a national tax cut, as if it is as easy to invest in China as it is to invest in New York.
 

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Tax cuts for businesses aren't going to do anything without an increase in demand.
 

faithful_servant

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Tax cuts for businesses aren't going to do anything without an increase in demand.

A tax cut that allows a company to lower it's prices to acquire more market share most certainly does increase demand. If filet mignon was suddenly $1/lb, the demand would go through the roof. Demand isn't strictly a consumer-side issue, the producer also has a substantial amount of influence over it.
 

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Over the short term, there will be some need to make some adjustments, but over the long term the benefit will FAR outweigh that cost. As business picks up, tax revenue will return and even increase, but it's a long term fix, not the microwave, fall apart is two years fix that increasing taxes brings.
See... What happens if business does not pick up? That seems like a huge pre-condition.... After-all KS does have positive economic growth (well kinda), even though it lacks behind the national average the necessary tax revenue still isnt coming in....

I've said for years that one of the biggest difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals TEND towards more short term based solutions, while conservative TEND towards more long term based solutions. This thread is just more fuel to feed that belief. Now I'll be accused of claiming that every single decision every liberal/conservative is short/long term by people who will ignore the word "TEND" in my post....
What solution? The state cannot meet revenue amount to fund basic government services because of a tax break and now they are cutting more and more where they can hardly find anywhere else to cut.
 

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i find it fascinating how gullible, and naive Middle Class Republicans are. States like Kansas cut taxes on the rich and corps, then because of the tax cuts they have to cut Middle Class services. SERVICES that affect the Middle Class. The rich don't give a rats ass that police protection is cut, they have their own security. They don't care that public schools and universities are cut. The rich send their kids to private schools and colleges.

The rich don't care that hospitals and clinics are closing. They have their own health care.

But Middle Class republicans just keep voting for the rich's interests and cutting their own throats.

Really stupid, IMO.
 

SouthernDemocrat

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Tax cuts are LONG TERM fixes, not short term fixes. They take time and that's what's being whined about. People want their microwave solution that will fall apart at the first sign of trouble, instead of waiting while the slow cooker solution brings about real long term, sustainable results. Like the Reagan tax cuts that gave us both the 1st Bush and Clinton economies.

We had 3 major tax increases between the original Reagan tax cuts and the Clinton economic boom.

YEs, I know you have 4.098 links to people who will tell you differently, but the fact is that tax cuts help the economy WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN PLACE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE FULL EFFECT.

I live on the Kansas side of the Kansas City metro. Our state's taxes were never high. They were competitive before the Brownback tax cuts. This is not California or Massachusetts here. This is the red state of Kansas. It has never had high taxes or big government programs. The main things the state government does is public education, public safety, and infrastructure. That is just about all the state's government has ever done. Prior to the Brownback tax cuts our taxes were about the same as they are in neighboring states (which all have fairly low state taxes as well). If you start with fairly low taxes, then you are not going to get some big economic miracle by cutting them to such a level that they are insufficient to fund the state's already modest fiscal obligations. After all, if tax cuts always lead to additional revenue and an economic boom, then why have taxes at all? We could have a tax rate of less than 1% then and the boom in economic growth resulting from such low taxes would lead to additional revenue.... that is if what your saying always happens, but I would imagine even you would understand that there are limits to such a notion.

People don't just come to a state for low taxes, quality of life is a huge factor as well. The taxes one the Missouri side were about the same as the Kansas side, so when someone moved to the Kansas side of the metro, they usually did so for quality of life reasons like the schools. Thus when taxes are too low to fund the school systems, then people are less apt to move to the Kansas side because they are concerned that the schools will not keep up with other parts of the metro. This is why since Brownback came into office Johnson County Kansas is no longer the fastest growing part of the metro (even though it was for decades). Now its Cass County which is North of the river on the Missouri side.

Furthermore, its just plain stupid to cut your state's income tax rates to a lower level than the neighboring state (which has low taxes to start with), when much of your state's population lives if your state but works in the neighboring state. For example, we live on the Kansas side of the metro, but both my wife and I work in Missouri. Prior to Brownback's cuts, we would end up paying some state income taxes to both Missouri and Kansas. Now, we are still paying income taxes to Missouri because that is where we work, but we pay no state income taxes at all to Kansas. You can't run a state like that when much of your state's population lives on or near the state line. Moreover, they are talking about bumping up sales taxes to make up for the shortfall in state income taxes which will be very easy to avoid by simply driving 2 miles to Missouri and shopping there.

Meanwhile, fees on everything has gone way up. We 3 kids in school and its now costing about 600 dollars to get them registered for school every year in fees. Hell even fishing licenses have gone up and now its cheaper to buy an out of state one for the Missouri side rather than a resident permit for Kansas. Our government's experiment has been an abject failure and Missouri has benefited greatly from his fiscal incompetence.
 

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Republicans seem to only govern by their ideological anymore. They no longer use simple common sense to govern.

Even though taxes are already low, what the hell, lets cut cut them to zero. That makes no sense, but that's what the Republican ideology dictates, so lets lets cut them. To hell with the consequences.

Jindal screwed up LA. to the point that his own people couldn't wait for him to get out. But he stuck to his ideology and ran up a $1 bil deficit. And then got out and left the mess for someone else.

That's typical of today's Republican Party.
 

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Tax cuts are LONG TERM fixes, not short term fixes. They take time and that's what's being whined about. People want their microwave solution that will fall apart at the first sign of trouble, instead of waiting while the slow cooker solution brings about real long term, sustainable results. Like the Reagan tax cuts that gave us both the 1st Bush and Clinton economies. YEs, I know you have 4.098 links to people who will tell you differently, but the fact is that tax cuts help the economy WHEN THEY ARE ALLOWED TO STAY IN PLACE LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE FULL EFFECT.


I am sorry that you disagree with reality, but the simple fact is that supply-side thinking is not thinking. It is pure BS.
 

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I am sorry that you disagree with reality, but the simple fact is that supply-side thinking is not thinking. It is pure BS.

Only to people who expect immediate gratification solutions. The greatest supply side effort this country ever made (during the Reagan admin.) led to one of the longest periods of economic prosperity we've ever had. The greatest example of sucking money out of the supply side (Roosevelt's New Deal) led to the worst economic conditions this country has ever seen.
 

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I love this excuse. Problem is:
1.)The tax cuts when passed, proponents claim it would drastically increase revenue
2.)Claimed this was going to be a "shot of adrenaline". Adrenaline is something that doesnt take a while to kick in
3.)Job growth has not come about of this. Business owners just hold on to the income not "create new jobs"
4.)Revenue has not increased therefore cut, cut, cut, cut. Claimed when passed that revenue would increase therefore no cuts needed, the exact opposite has happened.

Just hate it when someone has the courage to try and wean themselves off of large and expensive government with the proportional loss of government control, don't you?

From what I see, I'm drawn to the conclusion that the market is still absorbing this change, and will take some time to adjust to it, and yes, this may be longer than 15 months.

On the longer term perspective, it would seem to be an advantage to have a smaller, less expensive, more efficient and effective government.

Yes, I also know an anathema to typical socialism.
 
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