Kangaroos Seen In Israel ?

[oneworld2]

You have heard it so many times...................... IDF soldiers are held accountable for their actions and are punished for any wrongdoings unlike their Palestinian counterparts. Well , that's certainly an accurate enough sentence on the face of it but just how accountable are IDF soldiers in reality when it comes to being indicted and punished for any transgressions ?

B'tselem , the Israeli human rights group , have ceased working with the IDF on such cases due to the fact that they feel that by continuing to submit cases to the military law system they are legitimising a system they think works to cover up wrongdoing and not to serve justice. In a statement made in May 2016 they concluded..............

" “There is no longer any point in pursuing justice and defending human rights by working with a system whose real function is measured by its ability to continue to successfully cover up.”

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20160525_occupations_fig_leaf

If that doesn't set alarm bells ringing the following two cases may serve to add some meat to the bones of the accusations of cover ups/whitewashing when the Israeli legal folk investigate crimes committed against Palestinians by other Israeli folk.

The first case concerns the shooting dead of 16 year old Samir Awad near the West Bank village of Budrus in January, 2013 .

After penetrating a fenced section of the separation wall ( annexation wall ) that had seen many protests at the time and as part of a dare, Samir was caught in an IDF ambush and was first of all shot in the leg whilst attempting to run away from the IDF troops that were in pursuit. After scrambling to his feet and continuing to flee the troops he was then shot in the back and died of his wounds some time later at the Ramallah hospital.

Two IDF personnel were indicted as a result and charged , not with manslaughter or murder as might be expected , but on charges of "recklessness and negligence" that carried a max prison sentence of 3 years .

The defence their lawyers set up was based on the premise that it would be unfair on their clients to be indicted due to the rarity of indictment in such circumstances. They provided army stats that showed that only 4 cases out of 110 had returned a guilty verdict in similar cases

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...for-soldiers-who-killed-palestinian-1.5905960

In the last month the two IDF operatives were cleared of the charges against them wrt the shooting dead of Samir Awad. Was justice really served here ?

The second case is the shooting dead of 13 year old Iman al-Hams by an IDF Captain in Rafah, Gaza , 2004

Iman had wandered into an Israeli no mans land area approx 100 metres from an Israeli watchtower. Having been shot at causing her to drop her school bag , believed by the IDF to be possibly containing explosives , she started to head in the opposite direction. Having riddled the bag with bullets , thus confirming it contained no such threats , Imam was shot dead as she walked away.

The IDF Captain then approached Imans prostrate frame and fired his entire magazine into her. In all Iman was shot 17 times.

After fully 3 " investigations " the Captain was cleared of any wrong doing and walked free. When you read the account of witnesses , which included conversations between the IDF watchtower and the Captains unit nearby it is hard to see how and why this Palestinian child was shot and killed for little more than wandering into the wrong place at the wrong time . The terrified and confused Iman , realising she had somehow walked into danger , tried to extricate herself from the situation only to be cruelly slain by IDF operatives.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams

Read the articles and ask again , was justice served here ?

My view is that a great many of these indictments and internal military investigations are serving as useful PR opportunities whilst at the same time serving as cover ups/whitewashing exercises that completely undermine any notion of authentic accountability or justice wrt the Palestinians on the receiving end. Evidently B'tSelem feel the same way`

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Interesting OP. Confusing thread title.

 

[MrMike]

Interesting OP. Confusing thread title.

Yeah, I was expecting a story about kangaroos being set loose in Israel.

 

[Xelor]

Kangaroos Seen In Israel ?

Well, yes, they have kangaroos in Israel. Israel has a park -- Gan Guru park -- for kangaroos, koalas and other Aussie critters.

 

[Bodi]

You have heard it so many times...................... IDF soldiers are held accountable for their actions and are punished for any wrongdoings unlike their Palestinian counterparts. Well , that's certainly an accurate enough sentence on the face of it but just how accountable are IDF soldiers in reality when it comes to being indicted and punished for any transgressions ?

B'tselem , the Israeli human rights group , have ceased working with the IDF on such cases due to the fact that they feel that by continuing to submit cases to the military law system they are legitimising a system they think works to cover up wrongdoing and not to serve justice. In a statement made in May 2016 they concluded..............

" “There is no longer any point in pursuing justice and defending human rights by working with a system whose real function is measured by its ability to continue to successfully cover up.”

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20160525_occupations_fig_leaf

If that doesn't set alarm bells ringing the following two cases may serve to add some meat to the bones of the accusations of cover ups/whitewashing when the Israeli legal folk investigate crimes committed against Palestinians by other Israeli folk.

The first case concerns the shooting dead of 16 year old Samir Awad near the West Bank village of Budrus in January, 2013 .

After penetrating a fenced section of the separation wall ( annexation wall ) that had seen many protests at the time and as part of a dare, Samir was caught in an IDF ambush and was first of all shot in the leg whilst attempting to run away from the IDF troops that were in pursuit. After scrambling to his feet and continuing to flee the troops he was then shot in the back and died of his wounds some time later at the Ramallah hospital.

Two IDF personnel were indicted as a result and charged , not with manslaughter or murder as might be expected , but on charges of "recklessness and negligence" that carried a max prison sentence of 3 years .

The defence their lawyers set up was based on the premise that it would be unfair on their clients to be indicted due to the rarity of indictment in such circumstances. They provided army stats that showed that only 4 cases out of 110 had returned a guilty verdict in similar cases

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...for-soldiers-who-killed-palestinian-1.5905960

In the last month the two IDF operatives were cleared of the charges against them wrt the shooting dead of Samir Awad. Was justice really served here ?

The second case is the shooting dead of 13 year old Iman al-Hams by an IDF Captain in Rafah, Gaza , 2004

Iman had wandered into an Israeli no mans land area approx 100 metres from an Israeli watchtower. Having been shot at causing her to drop her school bag , believed by the IDF to be possibly containing explosives , she started to head in the opposite direction. Having riddled the bag with bullets , thus confirming it contained no such threats , Imam was shot dead as she walked away.

The IDF Captain then approached Imans prostrate frame and fired his entire magazine into her. In all Iman was shot 17 times.

After fully 3 " investigations " the Captain was cleared of any wrong doing and walked free. When you read the account of witnesses , which included conversations between the IDF watchtower and the Captains unit nearby it is hard to see how and why this Palestinian child was shot and killed for little more than wandering into the wrong place at the wrong time . The terrified and confused Iman , realising she had somehow walked into danger , tried to extricate herself from the situation only to be cruelly slain by IDF operatives.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams

Read the articles and ask again , was justice served here ?

My view is that a great many of these indictments and internal military investigations are serving as useful PR opportunities whilst at the same time serving as cover ups/whitewashing exercises that completely undermine any notion of authentic accountability or justice wrt the Palestinians on the receiving end. Evidently B'tSelem feel the same way`

What does this have to do with kangaroos?

 

[Bodi]

Yeah, I was expecting a story about kangaroos being set loose in Israel.

with bombs in their pouches...

 

[PirateMk1]

You have heard it so many times...................... IDF soldiers are held accountable for their actions and are punished for any wrongdoings unlike their Palestinian counterparts. Well , that's certainly an accurate enough sentence on the face of it but just how accountable are IDF soldiers in reality when it comes to being indicted and punished for any transgressions ?

B'tselem , the Israeli human rights group , have ceased working with the IDF on such cases due to the fact that they feel that by continuing to submit cases to the military law system they are legitimising a system they think works to cover up wrongdoing and not to serve justice. In a statement made in May 2016 they concluded..............

" “There is no longer any point in pursuing justice and defending human rights by working with a system whose real function is measured by its ability to continue to successfully cover up.”

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20160525_occupations_fig_leaf

If that doesn't set alarm bells ringing the following two cases may serve to add some meat to the bones of the accusations of cover ups/whitewashing when the Israeli legal folk investigate crimes committed against Palestinians by other Israeli folk.

The first case concerns the shooting dead of 16 year old Samir Awad near the West Bank village of Budrus in January, 2013 .

After penetrating a fenced section of the separation wall ( annexation wall ) that had seen many protests at the time and as part of a dare, Samir was caught in an IDF ambush and was first of all shot in the leg whilst attempting to run away from the IDF troops that were in pursuit. After scrambling to his feet and continuing to flee the troops he was then shot in the back and died of his wounds some time later at the Ramallah hospital.

Two IDF personnel were indicted as a result and charged , not with manslaughter or murder as might be expected , but on charges of "recklessness and negligence" that carried a max prison sentence of 3 years .

The defence their lawyers set up was based on the premise that it would be unfair on their clients to be indicted due to the rarity of indictment in such circumstances. They provided army stats that showed that only 4 cases out of 110 had returned a guilty verdict in similar cases

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...for-soldiers-who-killed-palestinian-1.5905960

In the last month the two IDF operatives were cleared of the charges against them wrt the shooting dead of Samir Awad. Was justice really served here ?

The second case is the shooting dead of 13 year old Iman al-Hams by an IDF Captain in Rafah, Gaza , 2004

Iman had wandered into an Israeli no mans land area approx 100 metres from an Israeli watchtower. Having been shot at causing her to drop her school bag , believed by the IDF to be possibly containing explosives , she started to head in the opposite direction. Having riddled the bag with bullets , thus confirming it contained no such threats , Imam was shot dead as she walked away.

The IDF Captain then approached Imans prostrate frame and fired his entire magazine into her. In all Iman was shot 17 times.

After fully 3 " investigations " the Captain was cleared of any wrong doing and walked free. When you read the account of witnesses , which included conversations between the IDF watchtower and the Captains unit nearby it is hard to see how and why this Palestinian child was shot and killed for little more than wandering into the wrong place at the wrong time . The terrified and confused Iman , realising she had somehow walked into danger , tried to extricate herself from the situation only to be cruelly slain by IDF operatives.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_Darweesh_Al_Hams

Read the articles and ask again , was justice served here ?

My view is that a great many of these indictments and internal military investigations are serving as useful PR opportunities whilst at the same time serving as cover ups/whitewashing exercises that completely undermine any notion of authentic accountability or justice wrt the Palestinians on the receiving end. Evidently B'tSelem feel the same way`

Both cases the IDF made the right call. If the Palestineans dont wish to die, they need to stop pentrating into Isreali no go zones. Its that simple. In both cases both people would probabley be still breathing if they had minded the no go zones. The Isrealis rarely go into Palestianian territory, the reverse is par for the course for the Palestianians.

 

[DarkWizard12]

ummm, i was promised kangaroos.

 

[oneworld2]

Interesting OP. Confusing thread title.

The reference to Kangaroos wrt to court cases obviously bypassed many here but the result it created is in itself interesting.imo

Are more people interested in Kangaroo numbers/distribution than are interested in children being shot by occupying forces in Palestine ? Maybe...........who knows ?

Cue the comment on there being no suicide bomber Kangaroos. To which the response would go something like how many Kangaroos live under a military occupation ?

 

[oneworld2]

ummm, i was promised kangaroos.

sarcasm mode on

Sorry you found a much less valuable tale of children being shot by the soldiers of an occupying power

sarcasm mode off

 

[oneworld2]

Yeah, I was expecting a story about kangaroos being set loose in Israel.

Kangaroos are signed up the BDS movement................. you won't find any of them volunteering to go to Israel. And if they were forced they would probably enjoy more rights than the Palestinians

 

[oneworld2]

What does this have to do with kangaroos?

I actually regret the naming of this thread even though it has been an interesting response

 

[oneworld2]

Well, yes, they have kangaroos in Israel. Israel has a park -- Gan Guru park -- for kangaroos, koalas and other Aussie critters.

Then there's the safari park of Gaza on the border where you can look ( or shoot ) through the fence at the " two legged beasts " and " little snakes " that are caged up there

 

[oneworld2]

Both cases the IDF made the right call. If the Palestineans dont wish to die, they need to stop pentrating into Isreali no go zones. Its that simple. In both cases both people would probabley be still breathing if they had minded the no go zones.

The first case involved a dare/protest against the imposition of an Israeli annexation border that blights the lives of thousands of Palestinians living in their own territory and the second one appears to have been an ad hoc no go zone completely in the territory of another people where the victim evidently arrived there by mistake.

The Isrealis rarely go into Palestianian territory, the reverse is par for the course for the Palestianians.

How out of touch you are

Around 400,000 Israelis that actually live , illegally , in " Palestinian territory " with thousands more IDF personnel acting as police/security because of them. The IDF regularly/daily violates Gazan territory with aircraft/boat/artillery armed incursions by troops special forces etc etc

 

[shazoomx4]

You know, In war, sometimes people die...

 

[shazoomx4]

The first case involved a dare/protest against the imposition of an Israeli annexation border that blights the lives of thousands of Palestinians living in their own territory and the second one appears to have been an ad hoc no go zone completely in the territory of another people where the victim evidently arrived there by mistake.


How out of touch you are

Around 400,000 Israelis that actually live , illegally , in " Palestinian territory " with thousands more IDF personnel acting as police/security because of them. The IDF regularly/daily violates Gazan territory with aircraft/boat/artillery armed incursions by troops special forces etc etc

What you consider as " Palestinian territory "?

 

[oneworld2]

What you consider as " Palestinian territory "?

The territories occupied since 1967 as per the international consensus on the two state solution ( all but dead now nevertheless that's the territory to which I refer )

 

[shazoomx4]

The territories occupied since 1967 as per the international consensus on the two state solution ( all but dead now nevertheless that's the territory to which I refer )

It is bad idea to give the palestinians to rule on 67 lines...

They want all Israel from jurden to the sea.. They not go to stop there..
They will try to bomb Israel from everywere on 67 line they will sit on road 6 and make it as dead road

 

[oneworld2]

It is bad idea to give the palestinians to rule on 67 lines...

I think it's a worse idea to support the current situation

They want all Israel from jurden to the sea.. They not go to stop there..

Some of them will and some will just be glad to be free from the abuses of occupation/siege. Their support from the outside world is for a state based on the 67 borders that support and any sympathy would disappear should an attempt be made to recapture historic Palestine and seek the destruction of Israel

There are also many Jewish people that think they should possess all of historic Palestine. Like a fair portion of those illegal settlers in the West Bank/Jerusalem

They will try to bomb Israel from everywere on 67 line they will sit on road 6 and make it as dead road

It would be suicide for them to carry on the fight if a just two state solution was to be concluded

 

[shazoomx4]

I think it's a worse idea to support the current situation



Some of them will and some will just be glad to be free from the abuses of occupation/siege. Their support from the outside world is for a state based on the 67 borders that support and any sympathy would disappear should an attempt be made to recapture historic Palestine and seek the destruction of Israel

There are also many Jewish people that think they should possess all of historic Palestine. Like a fair portion of those illegal settlers in the West Bank/Jerusalem



It would be suicide for them to carry on the fight if a just two-state solution was to be concluded

I would for the idea of two-states solution but, I believe What they say, they want all the area. they want all and they will keep the fight for that.
Because of that, the current situation, unfortunately, it the best, for now, for my eyes... I want to see them change first.

for example, I not hate Germans for what happened before 73 years, most of Israel does not hate them.. and not angry them at all...
First of all the Palestinians has to stop the hate they have to say that they ok with the country of Israel to be with 67 lines.
after they will stop the hate and the terror we will speak with them about something...

Look, we tried it before, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit But they do not agree to give up of full Israel. like they say (from the river to the sea Palestine will be free).
We want peace, but we want to live more than we want peace. (sorry for that...)

Like I say, first, we want to see them calm down from the hate and the terror, then they will get open gates for everything they need in their territory, then we will be able to speak with them.

You have to remember, Israel it a small country, If we will have control in terror way like Gaza style on 67 line they will have control with rockets on all over Israel and It is not acceptable...

(by the way, how my English is?)

 

[oneworld2]

I would for the idea of two-states solution but, I believe What they say, they want all the area. they want all and they will keep the fight for that.
Because of that, the current situation, unfortunately, it the best, for now, for my eyes... I want to see them change first.

I think the two state solution is all but dead now due to the changing of the facts on the ground in the Occupied Territories by the occupation/settlement itself. I have been a long time supporter of this way to bring an end to the conflict itself but time/events have not been kind to it

There are people on both sides that think their people should be the only people to rule the territory of the former Palestine . They are a huge problem but I think that if a just resolution of the conflict was to be agreed and people were freed from occupation to enjoy self rule on the Palestinian side as time passed and a more settled period were to follow the appeal to fight for the disappearance of the state of Israel and the " liberation " of all of Palestine would find fewer followers

Sure there would be , on both sides , those that would seek to bring everything crashing down but we can hope that they would be dealt with by the laws and taken out of the equation

They are not going to change towards Israel or Israelis until they are treated a whole lot better . Wanting them to change whilst under occupation/siege just isn't going to happen and only fuels more hatred in the long run

for example, I not hate Germans for what happened before 73 years, most of Israel does not hate them.. and not angry them at all...
First of all the Palestinians has to stop the hate they have to say that they ok with the country of Israel to be with 67 lines.
after they will stop the hate and the terror we will speak with them about something...

Germany and Germans moved on because they were stopped from carrying out the lunatic visions of the Nazi party . It was a defeat that stopped them and brought an end to their crimes against people they deemed inferior/dangerous/valueless etc.

My view is that if Israelis want to stop the hate and crimes that hate causes they need to treat Palestinians as human beings and stop treating them appallingly

Look, we tried it before, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit But they do not agree to give up of full Israel. like they say (from the river to the sea Palestine will be free).
We want peace, but we want to live more than we want peace. (sorry for that...)

No need to apologise for wanting to live, it's a popular view

I don't think the Israeli offers to the Palestinians were just in offering them a realistic self rule state that had a good future and that's why they were rejected

Like I say, first, we want to see them calm down from the hate and the terror, then they will get open gates for everything they need in their territory, then we will be able to speak with them.

Treat them better , expecting a change for the good by treating people bad just isn't the way it works imo You treat them better they start disliking you less

You have to remember, Israel it a small country, If we will have control in terror way like Gaza style on 67 line they will have control with rockets on all over Israel and It is not acceptable...

I am aware of the geography and do understand your genuine/valid fears but I don't see how a demilitarized Palestinian state monitored by the UN if need be presents a serious danger to the existence of the Israeli state. Those that will try to derail the two state resolution should it ever come about should be dealt with by the laws as said earlier

(by the way, how my English is?)

It's really good and I understand your positions. It's also about a million times better than my Hebrew

 

[Sasser]

Yeah, I was expecting a story about kangaroos being set loose in Israel.

LOL. I also was expecting an animal story! I love roo-roos.

 

[Sasser]

I think the two state solution is all but dead now due to the changing of the facts on the ground in the Occupied Territories by the occupation/settlement itself. I have been a long time supporter of this way to bring an end to the conflict itself but time/events have not been kind to it

There are people on both sides that think their people should be the only people to rule the territory of the former Palestine . They are a huge problem but I think that if a just resolution of the conflict was to be agreed and people were freed from occupation to enjoy self rule on the Palestinian side as time passed and a more settled period were to follow the appeal to fight for the disappearance of the state of Israel and the " liberation " of all of Palestine would find fewer followers

Sure there would be , on both sides , those that would seek to bring everything crashing down but we can hope that they would be dealt with by the laws and taken out of the equation

They are not going to change towards Israel or Israelis until they are treated a whole lot better . Wanting them to change whilst under occupation/siege just isn't going to happen and only fuels more hatred in the long run



Germany and Germans moved on because they were stopped from carrying out the lunatic visions of the Nazi party . It was a defeat that stopped them and brought an end to their crimes against people they deemed inferior/dangerous/valueless etc.

My view is that if Israelis want to stop the hate and crimes that hate causes they need to treat Palestinians as human beings and stop treating them appallingly



No need to apologise for wanting to live, it's a popular view

I don't think the Israeli offers to the Palestinians were just in offering them a realistic self rule state that had a good future and that's why they were rejected


Treat them better , expecting a change for the good by treating people bad just isn't the way it works imo You treat them better they start disliking you less


I am aware of the geography and do understand your genuine/valid fears but I don't see how a demilitarized Palestinian state monitored by the UN if need be presents a serious danger to the existence of the Israeli state. Those that will try to derail the two state resolution should it ever come about should be dealt with by the laws as said earlier


It's really good and I understand your positions. It's also about a million times better than my Hebrew

Israel has stated there will be no two state solution. Only Jews have the right to national self-determination. They just changed their Constitution to say that.

They will never give up the West Bank, nor will they ever let the Arab residents be citizens.

 

[ido_]

Israel has stated there will be no two state solution. Only Jews have the right to national self-determination. They just changed their Constitution to say that.

They will never give up the West Bank, nor will they ever let the Arab residents be citizens.

WTF are you talking about? nothing in this statement is true.

-Israel never stated there will be no two state solution, not even Netanyahu, see Bar-Ilan speech
-Israel doesn't have a constitution, and the law that just past say Israel is the nation state of the Jews
-Arab residents in Israel are Israeli citizens!

 

[Sasser]

WTF are you talking about? nothing in this statement is true.

-Israel never stated there will be no two state solution, not even Netanyahu, see Bar-Ilan speech
-Israel doesn't have a constitution, and the law that just past say Israel is the nation state of the Jews
-Arab residents in Israel are Israeli citizens!

Arab residents in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. They have a 'basic law' which is similar to a Constitution and it now was changed to say that only Jews have a right to national self determination, and removed all references to democracy and equal rights.