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JW's 46 Questions to Trinitarians

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tosca1

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I've just only seen that thread, "If Jesus Is God" - now locked.
The video (by the Jehovah's Witnesses), has 46 questions to ask of Trinitarians.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/beliefs-and-skepticism/336890-if-jesus-god.html





No, Trinitarians are not wrong. Let's try to answer them.



1. If the Trinity is a Bible-teaching, then why does the Bible consistently identify God by singular person pronouns: I, Me, He, Him....instead of We, Us or Them.




Whoever came up with that question, must've forgotten what God has stated in the Book of Genesis.


Genesis 1

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.




The concept of the Trinity is very much given in that statement - Three in One. Take note that the following statement after He used the plural forms - "So God created mankind in HIS OWN image, in the image of GOD, he created them - they (us and our), are all referred to as that One God.


Another time God used the term "us."


Genesis 11
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”




Those are clearly stated. We may not fully understand the Trinity, but the concept of three-in-one is quite clear.


The first question in that video is wrong. God did indeed use the plural terms "us," and "our."


May I throw this question to JW:

Why would God use the terms "us" and "our?" Who was He speaking to?
He couldn't have been be referring to angels - nowhere in the Bible does it say that angels were created in the image and likeness of God! Angels are created beings - they're not CO-CREATORS of God.
 
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tosca1

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Still on the first question:


Reading the verses given above, it's natural to assume that God was talking to someone other than Himself.
The Hebrew word for God is ELOHIM. It is a plural word. If you know that, and you happen to read this:


Deuteronomy 6

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.



Here is the literal Hebrew text: Hear, O’ Israel! Jehovah is our Elohim, Jehovah is one!



.....you may probably understand that the plural God (Elohim), is ONE God.


The Bible teaches that there is only one God - and there will only be one God, which is a plural One.
There are no other Gods besides Jehovah Himself.
 

tosca1

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2. If The Trinity Doctrine is a Biblical teaching, then why is it then not even one Scripture which clearly defines the Trinity?


Though the Trinity is not CLEARLY defined, or clearly explained - in such a simple way as Trinity for Dummies - the concept has been given numerous times in the Bible.


Refer to this thread:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/theology/309564-god-himself-them.html



A question for the JW:

Jesus referred to Himself as God numerous times - do you then agree with the Jews that Jesus committed blasphemy? Or, are you saying Jesus is a liar? Or, a lunatic?



If you cannot believe what Jesus had claimed about Himself - why do you claim to be His disciples?
As simple as that.
 

tosca1

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3. Why is there not even one Scripture where God is described using the word "three?"

:roll: Does it have to be said like, The Three Musketeers? The Three Bears?


Same answer as the above.

Jesus referred to Himself as God numerous times - do you then agree with the Jews that Jesus committed blasphemy? Or, are you saying Jesus is a liar? Or, a lunatic?
 

tosca1

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4. Why do many encyclopedias, dictionaries and other sources (including Sir Isaac Newton) agree the Trinity is a pagan corruption imposed on Christianity in the 4th century by Athanasius?


Many other sources too, agree that the Bible was lifted off from Sumerians.


Whom do you believe - Jesus, or all those people you mentioned?

Does JW believe the Bible (which include the New Testament), to have been God-inspired? Or, not?

Why does it seem you find all those sources named above to be more credible than the Bible?
 
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tosca1

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5. Why do numerous encyclopedias agree that the doctrine of the Trinity was gradual and comparatively late formation; that it has its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; and that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity.



Here's the JW translation of Genesis!


Genesis 1

26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,



https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/genesis/1/


Why do you have that?
 

tosca1

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Who wrote those questions???? :lol:


Meh. My answers to all the rest of those questions are these:


1. Many verses that support one another in proclaiming the truth of the Trinity.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/theology/309564-god-himself-them.html



2. And the simple question I've asked before:

Jesus referred to Himself as God, numerous times - do you then agree with the Jews that Jesus committed blasphemy?

Or, are you saying Jesus is a liar? Or, a lunatic?



3. If you believe its critics more than what is written in the Bible now, and it's become so questionable (having been so corrupted by paganism).............then, why on earth do you still use the Bible?




4. If you cannot believe what Jesus had claimed about Himself - why do you claim to be His disciples?


As simple as that.
 
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calamity

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It's all bull****. So, what difference does it make which bull**** story has more bull****?
 

veritas1

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It's all bull****. So, what difference does it make which bull**** story has more bull****?

You seem quite frightened as evidenced by your need to constantly reaffirm your unbelief. That it can all be true is nagging at you and your vehement denials serve as therapy for you. We get it.
 

veritas1

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I've just only seen that thread, "If Jesus Is God" - now locked.
The video (by the Jehovah's Witnesses), has 46 questions to ask of Trinitarians.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/beliefs-and-skepticism/336890-if-jesus-god.html





No, Trinitarians are not wrong. Let's try to answer them.



1. If the Trinity is a Bible-teaching, then why does the Bible consistently identify God by singular person pronouns: I, Me, He, Him....instead of We, Us or Them.




Whoever came up with that question, must've forgotten what God has stated in the Book of Genesis.


Genesis 1

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.




The concept of the Trinity is very much given in that statement - Three in One. Take note that the following statement after He used the plural forms - "So God created mankind in HIS OWN image, in the image of GOD, he created them - they (us and our), are all referred to as that One God.


Another time God used the term "us."


Genesis 11
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”




Those are clearly stated. We may not fully understand the Trinity, but the concept of three-in-one is quite clear.


The first question in that video is wrong. God did indeed use the plural terms "us," and "our."


May I throw this question to JW:

Why would God use the terms "us" and "our?" Who was He speaking to?
He couldn't have been be referring to angels - nowhere in the Bible does it say that angels were created in the image and likeness of God! Angels are created beings - they're not CO-CREATORS of God.

If Jesus is not God but "a" god as JW's claim, what does that say about them? It says that they are either practicing polytheism or have put their hopes in a mere mortal. Both are antithetical to scripture. I've asked Elvira several times how the Messiah can be called Almighty God and Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 but, of course, they have no answer. How can the son (the Messiah) be the Father? He can't unless they are the same entity.

The truth is that JW was simply cooked up by somebody in the 1870's and sold to people either poorly versed in scripture or totally ignorant of it. Since then, they've become more sophisticated and will provide you with endless convoluted scripture references to the point where the untutored think such a volume of "knowledge" must be legitimate. It isn't.
 

tosca1

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Jehovah's Witness is a cult.

Here, since they're so into encyclopedias.....let me use an encyclopedia to show that it is:




Jehovah’s Witness, member of a millennialist denomination that developed within the larger 19th-century Adventist movement in the United States and has since spread worldwide. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are an outgrowth of the International Bible Students Association, which was founded in 1872 in Pittsburgh by Charles Taze Russell.

The Adventist movement emerged in the 1830s around the predictions of William Miller, who proclaimed that Jesus Christ would return in 1843 or 1844.

When Christ did not return as Miller prophecied, Adventists divided into a number of factions.

During the 1870s, Charles Taze Russell established himself as an independent and controversial Adventist teacher. He rejected belief in hell as a place of eternal torment and adopted a non-Trinitarian theology that denied the divinity of Jesus.

He also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (“presence”), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or “Millennial Dawn,” already had occurred, in 1874.
The coming of Christ’s invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses



In other words, they believe the above because........Charles Taze Russell, had said so.

Even when his predictions obviously hadn't materialized - they still believe him.
How can they say Russell is right?



You saying Jesus' had already come? 1914??? We're now living in His millenial kingdom?
Yooo-hooo? Hello?



Does this world even remotely resembles the Kingdom that Christ would've established (as written in the Bible)? Does this look anywhere like a peaceful world to you?


The Bible speaks of the conditions during the millennium as a perfect environment physically and spiritually.

It will be a time of peace (Micah 4:2–4; Isaiah 32:17–18), joy (Isaiah 61:7, 10), and comfort (Isaiah 40:1–2).

The Bible also tells us that only believers will enter the millennial kingdom.

Because of this, it will be a time of obedience (Jeremiah 31:33), holiness (Isaiah 35:8), truth (Isaiah 65:16), and the knowledge of God (Isaiah 11:9, Habakkuk 2:14).

Christ will rule as king (Isaiah 9:3–7; 11:1–10). Nobles and governors will also rule (Isaiah 32:1; Matthew 19:28), and Jerusalem will be the political center of the world (Zechariah 8:3).
https://www.gotquestions.org/millennium.html




Now, this passage really bothers me.

The Bible also tells us that only believers will enter the millennial kingdom.

If we're now in the millennial kingdom - why are we still debating with any non-believers in this forum????
Could it be.....we didn't make it inside the Kingdom? We're also on the outside, along with non-believers?
You, too, Elvira? :mrgreen:


Uh.....maybe it's not a good idea to refer to the Biblical Scriptures as an argument - after all, they question the credibility of the Bible! :lol:
 
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Suburban Jedi

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I'm not a JW,I'm a (somewhat heretical) Catholic

But scripture does not support the idea of a Trinity. Genesis 1:26 is generally considered by scholars to be referring to the divine court. Matthew 27:19 is the ONLY place in the entire Bible where "Father, son,Holy Spirit" are mentioned together. 1John 5:7 is a later interpolation
 

tosca1

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I'm not a JW,I'm a (somewhat heretical) Catholic

But scripture does not support the idea of a Trinity. Genesis 1:26 is generally considered by scholars to be referring to the divine court. Matthew 27:19 is the ONLY place in the entire Bible where "Father, son,Holy Spirit" are mentioned together. 1John 5:7 is a later interpolation

Here is Matthew 27:19

19 While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”

It's not about the trinity.


So what if scholars reject it. That's the opinion of those scholars.



Trinitarian Verses

Matt. 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

1 Cor. 12:4-6
"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

2 Cor. 13:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."




One God verses

Isaiah 43:10
"You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."

Isaiah 44:8
"Do not tremble and do not be afraid; have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Isaiah 45:5
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God."


https://carm.org/cut-trinity
 
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Suburban Jedi

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My apologies,I meant Matthew 28:19

But as a quick reply,I don't think early Christians necessarily thought of the Holy Spirit as a different divine person. In fact the word "trinity" wasn't even used until 206 by Tertullian.
 

tosca1

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Here is a good counter to common arguments against the Trinity:



The Trinity is pagan.

Saying it is pagan means nothing. The question is whether or not it is biblical.

Are there verses that show that the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.? Yes, there are.

The F., S., & H.S. are each called God (F., Phil. 1:2), (S., John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9), (H.S., Acts 5:3-4).
Each has a will (F., Luke 22:42), (S., Luke 22:42), H.S., (1 Cor. 12:11).
Each is all-knowing (F., 1 John 3:20), (S., John 16:30; 21:17), (H.S., 1 Cor. 2:10-11), etc.
Regarding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each has a will (F., Luke 22:42), (S., Luke 22:42), H.S., (1 Cor. 12:11). Each speaks (F., Matt. 3:17), (S., Luke 5:20., (HS., Acts 8:29; 13:2).



The Trinity came from pagan trinities.

There are no trinities in pagan theology. There are triads (three gods) but no trinities (one God in three persons). Therefore, your statement is inaccurate.



The Bible does not say that God is three who's and one what.

That is correct. But the Trinity is a doctrine arrived at systematically (by looking at the whole of scripture)--not by looking at a single verse. Therefore, your complaint is misdirected and shows you don't understand the Trinity.



Show me one verse in the Bible that says that God is three persons.

The Trinity doctrine is arrived at systematically (by looking at the whole of
scripture)--not by looking at a single verse. Therefore, you won't see a single verse that says it. Also, this demonstrates that you don't understand the Trinity; otherwise, you would not have asked that question.

https://carm.org/cut-trinity
 

Suburban Jedi

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Personally, I don't think Jesus ever considered himself to be God. The three earliest gospels (Matthew, Mark,Luke)never once portray Jesus proclaiming his divinity. Only John does that.
 

tosca1

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My apologies,I meant Matthew 28:19

But as a quick reply,I don't think early Christians necessarily thought of the Holy Spirit as a different divine person. In fact the word "trinity" wasn't even used until 206 by Tertullian.

Thanks for that. The Great Commission!
Let me post it, since it's very important.

It actually shows that the Trinity was taught by Christ!


Matthew 28
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 

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calamity

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Jehovah's Witness is a cult.

Here, since they're so into encyclopedias.....let me use an encyclopedia to show that it is:





https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses



In other words, they believe the above because........Charles Taze Russell, had said so.

Even when his predictions obviously hadn't materialized - they still believe him.
How can they say Russell is right?



You saying Jesus' had already come? 1914??? We're now living in His millenial kingdom?
Yooo-hooo? Hello?



Does this world even remotely resembles the Kingdom that Christ would've established (as written in the Bible)? Does this look anywhere like a peaceful world to you?



https://www.gotquestions.org/millennium.html




Now, this passage really bothers me.

The Bible also tells us that only believers will enter the millennial kingdom.

If we're now in the millennial kingdom - why are we still debating with any non-believers in this forum????
Could it be.....we didn't make it inside the Kingdom? We're also on the outside, along with non-believers?
You, too, Elvira? :mrgreen:


Uh.....maybe it's not a good idea to refer to the Biblical Scriptures as an argument - after all, they question the credibility of the Bible! :lol:

All religions are cults
 

calamity

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If Jesus is not God but "a" god as JW's claim, what does that say about them? It says that they are either practicing polytheism or have put their hopes in a mere mortal. Both are antithetical to scripture. I've asked Elvira several times how the Messiah can be called Almighty God and Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 but, of course, they have no answer. How can the son (the Messiah) be the Father? He can't unless they are the same entity.

The truth is that JW was simply cooked up by somebody in the 1870's and sold to people either poorly versed in scripture or totally ignorant of it. Since then, they've become more sophisticated and will provide you with endless convoluted scripture references to the point where the untutored think such a volume of "knowledge" must be legitimate. It isn't.

And Christianity was “cooked up” by a bunch of pedophiles in the 1st century. And, then it was sold to people who could not read. What’s the diff?
 

calamity

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You seem quite frightened as evidenced by your need to constantly reaffirm your unbelief. That it can all be true is nagging at you and your vehement denials serve as therapy for you. We get it.

Bull**** is bull****. My personal struggles with belief or unbelief and whatever nags has nothing to do with it.
 

Elora

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I'm not a JW,I'm a (somewhat heretical) Catholic

But scripture does not support the idea of a Trinity. Genesis 1:26 is generally considered by scholars to be referring to the divine court. Matthew 27:19 is the ONLY place in the entire Bible where "Father, son,Holy Spirit" are mentioned together. 1John 5:7 is a later interpolation

You are too intelligent to be in this thread...;)
 
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