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Justice vs Peace

What is more important?

  • Justice

    Votes: 15 93.8%
  • Peace

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • Total voters
    16

Captain America

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Ahhh... the ol' "Which comes first the chicken or the egg" dilemma.

Indeed.

Being the hard-ass I am, with a particular disdain for the criminal element, I'm going to have to say justice comes first.

If I were a judge, I would surely be known as a "Hanging Judge."

I would throw Trump and his insurrectionist mob in a dark hole right next to all the BLM rioters and looters.

**** 'em all!
 

The Mark

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There can be no peace without justice...
Which reminds me of something I heard recently, "you can't have healing without accountability".
 

Felis Leo

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They call a Judge a Justice of the Peace for a reason. It is because you will not have Peace without Justice.

The BLM protests that we saw over the summer were born out of anger and frustration that for decades police have murdered and brutalized African Americans without repercussions. Without Justice.
Even when Police are caught red-handed on camera shooting a black man in the back they receive nothing more than a slap on the wrist. It is these gross miscarriages of justice that over time left good
people feeling as though they had no choice but to destroy half a city in order to make people finally listen to them. The failure to seek justice inevitably leads to violence and the destruction of peace.

Donald Trump should have been removed from office years ago. In fact, it was so painfully obvious that he was a disgusting low life unqualified for office that it is a stain on this country he was even allowed to win the election.
The pure and simple fact that our election laws once again forced the majority of Americans to be stuck with such buffoon is in and of itself a gross miscarriage of Justice.
But as the glaring obviousness of his crimes grew with each day of his presidency he was never held accountable. More than twenty different valid reasons to impeach him were blatantly ignored. Even when he was finally
impeached only One Senator from his party voted for his removal. The result is that Trump and his pack of deluded cultists grew ever more confident. Believing that their disgusting, racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic brand
of bigotry was finally back on top. They believed their Silent Majority was real when it wasn't. They believed their behavior was acceptable when it wasn't. They believed their ideas were popular when they were not.
The result is a raving pack of lunatics now running around the country believing that their country is being stolen from them because too few were willing to stand up for what was right and call a spade a spade in the beginning.

In both cases, it is a complete and total failure to hold evil people accountable for their actions that eventually lead to violence. In one case because innocent people became frustrated and angry when justice was not served for
crimes committed against them. In the other case because evil became emboldened when Justice was never served against them.

There are those who will choose peace over justice believing that it is better to avoid conflict and hope the bad actors will learn to behave themselves.

Anyone who thinks we can choose Unity and Peace by ignoring Justice is wrong. The consequences of not holding evil people accountable are disastrous.
I do not think you have yet established in principle or in fact that one cannot have peace without justice, MrWonka. That is akin to arguing that one cannot have food without democracy. I do not see justice and peace as historical points of progression, one inevitably following from the other. Rather, these are to non-overlapping spheres, neither contingent upon the other for their existence. We clearly know of grossly unjust societies (far more so than ours) that are surprisingly peaceful (again, far more so than ours). We know of societies that sought to do justice and that were ruined by internal strife.

I argue for justice, but I argue for justice for its own sake. But it has long been recognized that justice realized does not lead to peace. Sometimes quite the opposite. Hence my signature line fiat justitia, et pereat mundus. It stands as a recognition that justice is more valuable than peace. But you have to recognize that peace is what you may well be the price you pay for justice, rather than the product one purchases with justice. I do not think it is right or proper to argue to promise or in any way imply that peace shall follow justice being done. It is quite likely that it will not.
 

MrWonka

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I do not think you have yet established in principle or in fact that one cannot have peace without justice, MrWonka. That is akin to arguing that one cannot have food without democracy. I do not see justice and peace as historical points of progression, one inevitably following from the other.
Well, you are not exactly an expert on anything whatsoever so I'm not really under and obligation to convince you of anything, but I'd say the fact that about 92% of people in this thread seem to agree on at least some level should prove that point.

Justice, law, and courts are the very fundamental things that separate Modern Civilized Society from ancient warring factions. If your struggling with all of this I suggest retaking your 9th grade civics class and paying closer attention this time.
 

MrWonka

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I would throw Trump and his insurrectionist mob in a dark hole right next to all the BLM rioters and looters.
And the police officers who murdered George Floyd, Breonna Tayler, and countless other African Americans throughout history?

If you threw them in a dark hole in the first place BLM protestors wouldn't have felt the need to protest.
Oh, and let's keep in mind that police have identified multiple White Supremacists who instigated much of the worst rioting in Minneapolis.
 

MrWonka

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This is a false choice.

You won't have peace -- or the type of peace you want -- without justice.
So then the choice is Justice.

If it was a false choice we would be ignoring a third option. There is no third option in this case.
 

MrWonka

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Your poll is a logical fallacy.
It is a question. You can either have peace and unity by ignoring justice or you cannot. The fact that so far 92% have chosen Justice would indicate both my premise and conclusion do in fact have merit.
 

Felis Leo

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Well, you are not exactly an expert on anything whatsoever so I'm not really under and obligation to convince you of anything, but I'd say the fact that about 92% of people in this thread seem to agree on at least some level should prove that point.
First, please save the personal attacks, MrWonka. They are beneath you. I answered "justice" but not because that is the stepping stone to peace. Justice should be sought because it is a moral imperative, even at the cost of peace. After all, would you refuse to free a slave if you knew that doing so would start a process that might lead to social disorder? I hope not.

Justice, law, and courts are the very fundamental things that separate Modern Civilized Society from ancient warring factions. If your struggling with all of this I suggest retaking your 9th grade civics class and paying closer attention this time.
You say that as though it is a universal understanding. How can you be sure that you are not mixing correlation with causation? To name a salient example: the People's Republic of China is an incredibly peaceful country. Their rates of criminal violence are extraordinary low when compared to ours. Social order is quite high. Would you for one moment argue that they are peaceful because they achieved a just society? Or are they peaceful because they are a single-party police state where any dissent or sign of going against the grain of society (and especially against the government) is punished with brutality without right of redress or appeal?
 
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Captain America

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And the police officers who murdered George Floyd, Breonna Tayler, and countless other African Americans throughout history?

If you threw them in a dark hole in the first place BLM protestors wouldn't have felt the need to protest.
Oh, and let's keep in mind that police have identified multiple White Supremacists who instigated much of the worst rioting in Minneapolis.
Throw 'em all in the pit.
 

What if...?

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There is no justice if one fails to appreciate the peace. A nation state that brings terror to its people have and will fail on both counts.
Can large groups of people suffering the same psychosis be mass committed? If not, should they be coddled in their madness or be forced to confront it?

These are the real questions facing us at this moment in time.
 

Felis Leo

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It is a question. You can either have peace and unity by ignoring justice or you cannot. The fact that so far 92% have chosen Justice would indicate both my premise and conclusion do in fact have merit.
They indicate that the vast majority of us chose justice over peace. But your Poll does not indicate why we chose justice over peace. I certainly did not choose justice for the same reasons you would have, as indicated by your opening post.
 

Moderate Right

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They call a Judge a Justice of the Peace for a reason. It is because you will not have Peace without Justice.

The BLM protests that we saw over the summer were born out of anger and frustration that for decades police have murdered and brutalized African Americans without repercussions. Without Justice.
Even when Police are caught red-handed on camera shooting a black man in the back they receive nothing more than a slap on the wrist. It is these gross miscarriages of justice that over time left good
people feeling as though they had no choice but to destroy half a city in order to make people finally listen to them. The failure to seek justice inevitably leads to violence and the destruction of peace.

Donald Trump should have been removed from office years ago. In fact, it was so painfully obvious that he was a disgusting low life unqualified for office that it is a stain on this country he was even allowed to win the election.
The pure and simple fact that our election laws once again forced the majority of Americans to be stuck with such buffoon is in and of itself a gross miscarriage of Justice.
But as the glaring obviousness of his crimes grew with each day of his presidency he was never held accountable. More than twenty different valid reasons to impeach him were blatantly ignored. Even when he was finally
impeached only One Senator from his party voted for his removal. The result is that Trump and his pack of deluded cultists grew ever more confident. Believing that their disgusting, racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic brand
of bigotry was finally back on top. They believed their Silent Majority was real when it wasn't. They believed their behavior was acceptable when it wasn't. They believed their ideas were popular when they were not.
The result is a raving pack of lunatics now running around the country believing that their country is being stolen from them because too few were willing to stand up for what was right and call a spade a spade in the beginning.

In both cases, it is a complete and total failure to hold evil people accountable for their actions that eventually lead to violence. In one case because innocent people became frustrated and angry when justice was not served for
crimes committed against them. In the other case because evil became emboldened when Justice was never served against them.

There are those who will choose peace over justice believing that it is better to avoid conflict and hope the bad actors will learn to behave themselves.

Anyone who thinks we can choose Unity and Peace by ignoring Justice is wrong. The consequences of not holding evil people accountable are disastrous.
That's a lot of words. You could have just written that violence is acceptable from the left but not from the right and that it is OK for the left to attack our democracy but the right can't. You could have also said that when the police shoot and kill an unarmed black person who is no threat to them it is unacceptable but it is acceptable to shoot and kill an unarmed white woman who was no threat to them. After all, she had white privilege.
 
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MrWonka

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That's a lot of words. You could have just written that violence is acceptable from the left but not from the right and that it is OK for the left to attack our democracy but the right can't. You could have also said that when the police shoot and kill an unarmed black person who is no threat to them it is unacceptable but it is acceptable to shoot and kill an unarmed white woman who was no threat to them. After all, she had white privilege.
93% seems to disagree with you.
 

Felis Leo

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It is a question. You can either have peace and unity by ignoring justice or you cannot. The fact that so far 92% have chosen Justice would indicate both my premise and conclusion do in fact have merit.
That was not the question, MrWonka. The question is what would you rather have? Peace or Justice? I chose Justice. But you have not demonstrated how peace follows from justice. Just that justice is more desirable than peace.
 
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