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Just something I ran across...Vietnam Vets.

cherokee

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To me this crosses all lines No matter what party you belong.
On a recent Sunday after church, my wife and I went out for breakfast.

After ordering our meal, we noticed a sailor in uniform eating breakfast alone at a table. When our waitress came past our table, I asked if she knew who his waitress was because I would like to pick up his check.

She came back a little later and said that it was already taken care of.

When she brought us our food, she told us that everybody had wanted to pick up the sailor's check.

I felt really pleased that people wanted to do something nice for this sailor.

In fact, people in general are thanking military personnel in many different kinds of ways. It is really gratifying to see.

The thing that makes me sad is why is this happening now? We have had a military since the Revolutionary War. We have always had patriots, but, unfortunately, we have not always had patriotism.

Do you think that if that sailor was eating breakfast on Sept. 10, 2001,that everyone would have wanted to pay his check? I hope people would; I know I would because I was a sailor once. I have empathy for our sailors, soldiers, airmen and marines.

In times of war, people tend to rally around the flag. After the threat of war is over, patriotism wanes. After the war is over, the warrior is forgotten until the next war.

I fought in a war that was the exception. You see, I am a Vietnam veteran. Vietnam was our longest and most unpopular war. Unlike other servicemen returning from past and present wars, who were greeted with parades and pageantry from a grateful nation, Vietnam veterans were greeted with scorn and resentment from an uncaring and ungrateful nation.

You have to remember that the warrior doesn't pick the war he fights in, the war picks him.

It is too late to thank Vietnam veterans for serving their country, but it is not too late to thank our sailors, soldiers, airmen and marines for serving.

When this war on terrorism is over, do not forget those serving in uniform and those veterans who have served and, most important of all, those who died in service to our country.

Remember them not just on Memorial Day and Veterans Day, but every day.

I do not agree with "Its too late" I believe its only too late after they have died.

I recently told a member here since I was 12 years old I have thanked and shook the hand of every Vietnam Vet I have met.

It’s beyond my words to express my heart-felt thanks for the Service they gave and sacrifice they have suffered.
 

Stace

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It's sad that this is so true.

I joined the Air Force just after 9/11 - and no, I didn't join because of 9/11. I'd been talking to my recruiters long before that. :mrgreen: But I can't tell you how many times I would run to Wal Mart after work, still in my uniform, to grab a couple of things I needed, and was stopped by someone wanting to shake my hand and tell me "thank you" for my service. Brought tears to my eyes every time, because I never thought I was doing anything "special"....joining the service just felt right to me at the time.

But I also can't tell you how many times I was out and about and heard people bashing the troops left and right. I always kept my cool and walked away, but inside, I was seething. These are the people that don't realize that those same troops really are defending their right to say those sorts of things.

I just wish more people would step up to the plate and do something good for our troops. Slapping a magnet on the back of your car isn't enough. Something as simple as saying "thank you" when you see a troop in public means the world to them.

So THANK YOU to my fellow debaters that were/are my fellow brothers and sisters in arms. Once a troop, always a troop, and regardless of the branch you served in, how long you served, or, here on this board, what your political leaning is, and regardless of if our paths had never crossed, you all hold a special place in my hearts just because we all served a common goal.
 

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Most Viet Nam vets did not get treated badly, except of course by the government and corporations. This constant whining about VN vets getting reviled and 'spit on' is just bullshit. Ever since that stupid *** 'Rambo' movie came out in 1982, we' ve been hearing bullshit stories and throwing big Pity Parties for the most coddled group of veterans in American history, outside of ROAD lifers.
 

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These are the people that don't realize that those same troops really are defending their right to say those sorts of things.

see these people probably think that the troops are not defending their right to say these things. I don'tb blame the troops but i don't think they are fighting in iraq to defend freedom of speech in the US
 

cherokee

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Picaro said:
Most Viet Nam vets did not get treated badly, except of course by the government and corporations. This constant whining about VN vets getting reviled and 'spit on' is just bullshit. Ever since that stupid *** 'Rambo' movie came out in 1982, we' ve been hearing bullshit stories and throwing big Pity Parties for the most coddled group of veterans in American history, outside of ROAD lifers.


And you know this from personal experience?
I have seen first hand how Vietnam veterans were treated returning to the states.
To this day I remember how my uncles were treated with the retarded remarks when The wore their uniforms in public in the early 70’s so you my friend can f**k off.
Its not a pity party its about showing respect to the men and women who didn’t run to Canada like pu$$ies.
 

Willoughby

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Its not a pity party its about showing respect to the men and women who didn’t run to Canada like pu$$ies.

if i had been around at the time i would have been the one in the front of the queue buying that ticket to canada....i don't want to be in some foriegn country fighting a war that i don't believe in very dodgy situation.....
where would i have gone to in canada is a different matter..any recommendations??
 

Stace

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Willoughby said:
see these people probably think that the troops are not defending their right to say these things.

That's what I said.

I don'tb blame the troops but i don't think they are fighting in iraq to defend freedom of speech in the US

Based upon your other responses, is it safe to assume that you've never served in the military?

The freedom of speech thing has nothing to do with war, per se. The troops here at home are doing it, too. Civilians just don't realize how important our military is, unless they are very closely connected to someone that has served. Cherokee, what do you think?
 

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This constant whining about VN vets getting reviled and 'spit on' is just bullshit.

How 'bout some personal experience from a Vietnam vet? I returned to 'the world' in late '68, a time when our efforts in VN were not quite yet the target of the largest demonstrations that came a year or so later. Returning to a somewhat conservative medium sized city in the mid-south, I experienced only a mild bit of 'baiting' initially. But by the fall of '70, when I returned to college, it was getting pretty awful, especially on campus. "Reviled and spit on"? You betcha. Called 'baby killers' and worse? That too.

Quite a few returning vets took advantage of the GI Bill to start or resume getting an education. Most of us got more of an 'education' than we bargained for...

Nope. Not BS. I was there. I lived it.

Notice my avatar? That is the unit patch of the 9th Inf Div. I was with the 9th Inf Div in '67 & '68. The 9th ID was known as the 'Old Reliables', hence my screen name.

BTW, yeah, I really am that old!
 

cherokee

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Stace said:
That's what I said.



Based upon your other responses, is it safe to assume that you've never served in the military?

The freedom of speech thing has nothing to do with war, per se. The troops here at home are doing it, too. Civilians just don't realize how important our military is, unless they are very closely connected to someone that has served. Cherokee, what do you think?


They dont understand and I dont think any amount of TV will help them.

You have to remember that the warrior doesn't pick the war he fights in, the war picks him.

In the Movie "We were soliders" at the very end hes said.
"They went becuase their country asked them to go"
 

cherokee

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oldreliable67, Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

Semper Fi

:memorial_
 

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Since before 911, I always pick up a tab for our fellow military members. Did 13 myself. As for those that ran for the border, the worst mistake ever was letting them back in.
Should have made them stay, or did their jail time. There were those that refused to go for religious reasons. I know a couple, and they, in some instances, served time for it. But at least they had the courage to do what they believed in.
Those that ran? Chickensh!ts, to the last one.
I thank all those that served in the service, or supported them. Not everyone has what it takes to serve.
 

Stace

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oldreliable67 said:
How 'bout some personal experience from a Vietnam vet? I returned to 'the world' in late '68, a time when our efforts in VN were not quite yet the target of the largest demonstrations that came a year or so later. Returning to a somewhat conservative medium sized city in the mid-south, I experienced only a mild bit of 'baiting' initially. But by the fall of '70, when I returned to college, it was getting pretty awful, especially on campus. "Reviled and spit on"? You betcha. Called 'baby killers' and worse? That too.

Quite a few returning vets took advantage of the GI Bill to start or resume getting an education. Most of us got more of an 'education' than we bargained for...

Nope. Not BS. I was there. I lived it.

Notice my avatar? That is the unit patch of the 9th Inf Div. I was with the 9th Inf Div in '67 & '68. The 9th ID was known as the 'Old Reliables', hence my screen name.

BTW, yeah, I really am that old!

Ooh, ooh, I got called a baby killer once, too!!! :roll:

You're not THAT old, my friend. Now, if you had served in WWII, that'd be another story. :mrgreen:
 

MSgt

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Stace said:
Ooh, ooh, I got called a baby killer once, too!!! :roll:

You're not THAT old, my friend. Now, if you had served in WWII, that'd be another story. :mrgreen:


The correct PC term today is "Helpless victims of American Imperialism."
 

cherokee

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Stace said:
Ooh, ooh, I got called a baby killer once, too!!! :roll:

The only time I ever on retarded remarks like that was in the Marine JROTC in High School.
 

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Maybe people should do more of those kind of things for single mothers. Meaning no disrespect but the military--minus the propaganda--is a business of those who kill on behalth of their government. Obviously, those who are involved with the military believe in what they are doing and--for the most part are brave--but I just think that with everything going on right now, the military is overy glorified for uses of propaganda, hence the reason why Support Our Troops is one of the biggest 'I'm for George W Bush and the war' indicators out there.

The reason why the military aren't recognized as heroes outside of war is because the State doesn't require military propaganda outside of war. The "troops" are an invisible group of people, not the figureheads that they are in War.

Soldiering is a job like anyother. A job that is neccesary in order to protect us. But, like in any other job, you gotta do what the boss tells you. With the State as the boss, you can gurantee that soldiers will not be doing the right thing all the time. The fact that people have such respect for the soldiers as compared to everyone else is an obvious effect of propaganda. The State needs these soldiers to be loved. If people considered soldiers to be machines similar to workers in factories, the people won't be into the war. If that is so, the most moral members of society will recognize that soldiers are human beings and oppose that. That is something which govenrment cannot have.

Because no man is a machine, despite any kind of military indoctrination. The state either has to have people believe they are machines (which is impossible) or to have us love them so much that we forget what they are are about. This is the basis of how a war can be supported and how an unjust war can survive without criticism. If you criticize the state, you criticize the troops. But we love the troops so we won't criticize the state. That is the implied message of those yellow ribbons. But please don't think that I do not support the troops'. I prefer to think of them as human beings as opposed to soldiers. I prefer to be on the common man's side, as opposed to the State.
 

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Picaro said:
Most Viet Nam vets did not get treated badly, except of course by the government and corporations. This constant whining about VN vets getting reviled and 'spit on' is just bullshit. Ever since that stupid *** 'Rambo' movie came out in 1982, we' ve been hearing bullshit stories and throwing big Pity Parties for the most coddled group of veterans in American history, outside of ROAD lifers.

Yet I know vets that say your completely and totally 100% wrong .. Imagine that ......
 

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Willoughby said:
if i had been around at the time i would have been the one in the front of the queue buying that ticket to canada....i don't want to be in some foriegn country fighting a war that i don't believe in very dodgy situation.....
where would i have gone to in canada is a different matter..any recommendations??

NO .. but feel free to leave now......No need for a round trip :lol:
 

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NO .. but feel free to leave now......No need for a round trip
No u get me wrong, i wouldn't like to live in the US to start with, not with all the **** kicking off there at the moment
 

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Just speaking for myself, a young hippy too young to have, much less burn, a draft card, back during Nam, I never once disrespected the VN vets. To this day, I honor their sacrifices. As do/did all my other "hippy" friends.

I have heard for years about the disrespect VN vets encountered so I know it must be true. But I have never participated or experienced anyone else in my "liberal circles" doing that at all. Never.

The beef was with the war, not the soldiers. At least it was in my neck o' the woods. Anyone pointing their frustrations towards our soldiers was clearly out of line and me and my hippy friends would be the first to tell them so.

Veterans ROCK! I am honored to shake their hand.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
Maybe people should do more of those kind of things for single mothers. Meaning no disrespect but the military--minus the propaganda--is a business of those who kill on behalth of their government. Obviously, those who are involved with the military believe in what they are doing and--for the most part are brave--but I just think that with everything going on right now, the military is overy glorified for uses of propaganda, hence the reason why Support Our Troops is one of the biggest 'I'm for George W Bush and the war' indicators out there.

The reason why the military aren't recognized as heroes outside of war is because the State doesn't require military propaganda outside of war. The "troops" are an invisible group of people, not the figureheads that they are in War.

Soldiering is a job like anyother. A job that is neccesary in order to protect us. But, like in any other job, you gotta do what the boss tells you. With the State as the boss, you can gurantee that soldiers will not be doing the right thing all the time. The fact that people have such respect for the soldiers as compared to everyone else is an obvious effect of propaganda. The State needs these soldiers to be loved. If people considered soldiers to be machines similar to workers in factories, the people won't be into the war. If that is so, the most moral members of society will recognize that soldiers are human beings and oppose that. That is something which govenrment cannot have.

Because no man is a machine, despite any kind of military indoctrination. The state either has to have people believe they are machines (which is impossible) or to have us love them so much that we forget what they are are about. This is the basis of how a war can be supported and how an unjust war can survive without criticism. If you criticize the state, you criticize the troops. But we love the troops so we won't criticize the state. That is the implied message of those yellow ribbons. But please don't think that I do not support the troops'. I prefer to think of them as human beings as opposed to soldiers. I prefer to be on the common man's side, as opposed to the State.

the analogy of a soldier to a regular worker might work these days, but only becuase the US hasn't reinstituted the draft. A person today might be in the army as a career but back then he was there solely at the call of his country... its a pretty big diferance
 

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FinnMacCool said:
Maybe people should do more of those kind of things for single mothers. Meaning no disrespect but the military--minus the propaganda--is a business of those who kill on behalth of their government. Obviously, those who are involved with the military believe in what they are doing and--for the most part are brave--but I just think that with everything going on right now, the military is overy glorified for uses of propaganda, hence the reason why Support Our Troops is one of the biggest 'I'm for George W Bush and the war' indicators out there.

The reason why the military aren't recognized as heroes outside of war is because the State doesn't require military propaganda outside of war. The "troops" are an invisible group of people, not the figureheads that they are in War.

Soldiering is a job like anyother. A job that is neccesary in order to protect us. But, like in any other job, you gotta do what the boss tells you. With the State as the boss, you can gurantee that soldiers will not be doing the right thing all the time. The fact that people have such respect for the soldiers as compared to everyone else is an obvious effect of propaganda. The State needs these soldiers to be loved. If people considered soldiers to be machines similar to workers in factories, the people won't be into the war. If that is so, the most moral members of society will recognize that soldiers are human beings and oppose that. That is something which govenrment cannot have.

Because no man is a machine, despite any kind of military indoctrination. The state either has to have people believe they are machines (which is impossible) or to have us love them so much that we forget what they are are about. This is the basis of how a war can be supported and how an unjust war can survive without criticism. If you criticize the state, you criticize the troops. But we love the troops so we won't criticize the state. That is the implied message of those yellow ribbons. But please don't think that I do not support the troops'. I prefer to think of them as human beings as opposed to soldiers. I prefer to be on the common man's side, as opposed to the State.


No. That is completely incorrect. You can say what you want about the pols and their cronies. I don't really care. But the personnel in the military are NOT like any other person you know. It takes a rare breed to survive in the military, and to make it a success.
Those that are getting fried for their comments are those same ones that are condemning the military, and appeasing the terrorists, no one else. Kerry, Murtha, all those other morons, all labeled the men and women as basic criminals. That is why they are getting attacked.
Falsely clouding the issue won't change the truth. It will just confuse those who don't know anything.
 

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But the personnel in the military are NOT like any other person you know. It takes a rare breed to survive in the military, and to make it a success.

No it doesnt it just takes someone willing to hide homosexuality, forget sexual attacks made on their person, someone willing to not see injustices and do as they're told regardless of what the task at hand may be.

Those that are getting fried for their comments are those same ones that are condemning the military, and appeasing the terrorists, no one else.

People have a right to not like the military. Others just dont respect their opinions. Ironic for a country with such freedom.

Kerry, Murtha, all those other morons, all labeled the men and women as basic criminals. That is why they are getting attacked.

I dont see everyone in the U.S. military being a criminal....but if you start adding all the unreported rapes that have gone on the military, the insensible beatings of homosexuals in the military, the "incidents" at Abu Ghraib etc. I'd say quite a few are criminals

Falsely clouding the issue won't change the truth. It will just confuse those who don't know anything.

Better words have never been spoken.
 

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Davo said:
No it doesnt it just takes someone willing to hide homosexuality, forget sexual attacks made on their person, someone willing to not see injustices and do as they're told regardless of what the task at hand may be.

It's obvious you've never been in the military. You have no clue what is going on in it. As for 'attacks' on the homosexuals, where are they? As for blindly doing as they are told, you truly have no concept of the UCMJ. Just more liberal bullsh!t. (Note to the dems out there: I am not lumping a dem with a lib. Different creatures.)

Davo said:
People have a right to not like the military. Others just dont respect their opinions. Ironic for a country with such freedom.

Never said they don't have the option to not like the military. But they also owe freedom of speech to that same unit they hate. Kind of ironic. And part of that freedom of speech is my right to disagree wtih all your bunk.

Davo said:
I dont see everyone in the U.S. military being a criminal....but if you start adding all the unreported rapes that have gone on the military, the insensible beatings of homosexuals in the military, the "incidents" at Abu Ghraib etc. I'd say quite a few are criminals

Here goes the :spin: Unreported crimes again. If you have no concrete evidence, you have nothing but hype. And that isn't worth the paper it is written on on the internet. Abu Ghraib is ongoing and they are getting to everyone responsible.
Less than 1% are criminals.
 

Davo

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It's obvious you've never been in the military. You have no clue what is going on in it. As for 'attacks' on the homosexuals, where are they? As for blindly doing as they are told, you truly have no concept of the UCMJ. Just more liberal bullsh!t. (Note to the dems out there: I am not lumping a dem with a lib. Different creatures.)

The United States military is facing the gravest accusations of sexual misconduct in years, with dozens of servicewomen in the Persian Gulf area and elsewhere saying they were sexually assaulted or raped by fellow troops, lawmakers and victims advocates said on Wednesday.

There have been 112 reports of sexual misconduct over roughly the past 18 months in the Central Command area of operations, which includes Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan, military officials said on Wednesday.

The Army has reported 86 incidents, the Navy 12, the Air Force 8 and the Marine Corps 6.

Military officials said that the bulk of the charges were being investigated and that some had already resulted in disciplinary actions, but they could not provide specifics. They said a small number of the reports had turned out to be unfounded.

In addition, about two dozen women at Sheppard Air Force Base, a large training facility in Texas, have reported to a local rape-crisis center that they were assaulted in 2002. The Air Force Academy in Colorado is still reeling from the disclosure last year of more than 50 reported assaults or rapes over the last decade.

The latest accusations are the most extensive set of sexual misconduct charges since the Navy's Tailhook incident of 1991 and the Army's drill sergeant scandal about five years later. In response, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld this month ordered a senior-level inquiry into the reported sexual assaults in Iraq and Kuwait, and how the armed services treats victims of sexual attacks. The Army and Air Force have opened similar investigations.

The issue came to a boil at a contentious hearing on Capitol Hill on Wednesday, where Senate Democrats and Republicans sharply questioned the Pentagon's top personnel official and four four-star officers for what the lawmakers said were lapses in the military's ability to protect servicewomen from sexual assaults, to provide medical care and counseling to victims of attacks and to punish violators.

Lawmakers said they were particularly appalled by reports that women serving in roles from military police to helicopter pilots had been assaulted by male colleagues in remote combat zones like Iraq and Afghanistan, where immediate medical treatment and a sense of justice seemed to be lacking.

"No war comes without cost, but the cost should be born out of conflict with the enemy, and not because of egregious violations by some of our own troops," said Senator Susan Collins, a Maine Republican on the Armed Services personnel subcommittee.

Senator Ben Nelson, Democrat of Nebraska, voiced concern that senior Pentagon leaders had not sufficiently addressed the problem. "I don't get a sense of outrage by military leadership," Mr. Nelson said.

The Pentagon's personnel chief, David S. C. Chu, assured the lawmakers that the Defense Department was treating the issue seriously and that "all policies are on the table" as part of the 90-day review, whose findings and recommendations are due by April 30.

He said the immediate priority would be to provide better care to assault victims.

In an effort to blunt criticism that the defense officials were not doing enough to address the issue, the Pentagon moved up the release of a Congressionally mandated survey conducted in 2002 — a period before most of the latest rash of complaints occurred — that found that the number of servicewomen who said they had been sexually assaulted had declined to 3 percent from 6 percent in 1995, when the last survey was taken.

But some senators questioned the survey's methodology and timing. "Why in the world did it take two years to take a survey?" asked Senator John W. Warner, a Virginia Republican who heads the full committee, noting that politicians routinely ordered overnight polls for their campaigns.

The latest sexual assault scandals have burst into full public view largely because of a recent series of investigative articles by The Denver Post and growing pressure from lawmakers, especially from women in Congress like Senator Collins and Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas.

But the numbers of reported assaults revealed on Wednesday exceeded the scope of what the Post articles had described. Christine Hansen, executive director of The Miles Foundation, a victims' advocacy group in Newtown, Conn., told senators at the hearing that it had received reports of 68 cases of sexual assault, mainly from servicewomen in Iraq and Kuwait.

The women's complaints ranged from the lack of emergency medical care and rape kits, to incomplete criminal investigations into their reports to retaliation by peers for reporting an assault, she said.

"We may just be beginning to see what the problem is," Ms. Hansen said in a telephone interview after the hearing.

The reported assaults have produced action and reviews in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps.

At a budget hearing before the House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday, Acting Army Secretary Les Brownlee said in response to a question that many sexual assaults went unreported. "We don't want that," Mr. Brownlee said. "We want an environment where these young women will feel free to report."

Senior officials from all the services said they were reviewing and, in some cases, increasing their training. Gen. William L. Nyland, the assistant Marine Corps commandant, told senators that beginning March 1, all newly enlisted marines will receive sexual-assault awareness and prevention training. Marine officers already receive the instruction.



Never said they don't have the option to not like the military. But they also owe freedom of speech to that same unit they hate. Kind of ironic. And part of that freedom of speech is my right to disagree wtih all your bunk.

I dont understand what that has to do with anything.

Here goes the :spin: Unreported crimes again. If you have no concrete evidence, you have nothing but hype. And that isn't worth the paper it is written on on the internet. Abu Ghraib is ongoing and they are getting to everyone responsible.Less than 1% are criminals.

1,700 sex crimes involving military personnel reported
Number of service members who say they were victims climbs by 263 vs. previous year.

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN
The Associated Press


WASHINGTON – Military criminal investigators received 1,700 reports of sexual assault in 2004 involving at least one member of the military, the Pentagon said Friday.

This number includes cases in which a service member was reported to be either an assailant or a victim.

It is the first year the military has tracked this particular statistic - a move resulting from sex-assault scandals at the Air Force Academy and among troops overseas.

But one part of this number that has been tracked in the past - the number of military members saying they were assault victims - showed a marked increase compared with past years.

In 2004, 1,275 cases involved at least one member of the military saying he or she was a victim of sexual assault. That's up from 1,012 in 2003 and 901 in 2002.

Ok acording to those numbers...for every 1000 soldiers....1 gets raped/sodomized. Now...make an educated guess...about all the other people in the army who are raped/sodomized and dont come forward.
 
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