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Juno actor Ellen Page publicly comes out as a transgender male named Elliot and tells fans in a statement: 'My pronouns are he/they' - as wife of two

Superfly said:
Point of order.

Some people need to be called stupid only because they might not otherwise realize it.

It’s a public service, actually.
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Disagree, but we've derailed this thread enough on the subject. It probably deserves it's own thread, where nothing but civility is likely to occur.
 
Rawley said:
Shhhhhh Your ruining all their fun pretending to be superior
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You're*
Rawley said:
abcnews.go.com

Transgender teens outrun track and field competitors but critics close behind

Some parents within Connecticut's high school track and field circle expressed outraged when two transgender students won top prizes at the state championships for girls.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
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My opinion on their inclusion into gendered sports is complicated. On one hand, I can understand the validation they must get when they participate in activities with whom they see as their peers. On the other, I can understand how some people consider it an unfair advantage. My solution to the problem is to let those directly involved have the discussions and make the decisions, I do not have as much information or experience in the subject. It would be presumptuous of me to assume I know enough about how either party in the situation is affected, generally.

Maybe someone should do some scientific studies looking at the issue, and seeing if it is true that MTF athletes do have an unfair advantage, or if the objections to it are merely confirmation bias.
 
ASHES said:
You're*

My opinion on their inclusion into gendered sports is complicated. On one hand, I can understand the validation they must get when they participate in activities with whom they see as their peers. On the other, I can understand how some people consider it an unfair advantage. My solution to the problem is to let those directly involved have the discussions and make the decisions, I do not have as much information or experience in the subject. It would be presumptuous of me to assume I know enough about how either party in the situation is affected, generally.

Maybe someone should do some scientific studies looking at the issue, and seeing if it is true that MTF athletes do have an unfair advantage, or if the objections to it are merely confirmation bias.
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That's the problem. It isn't those directly involved making the decisions, it's politicians. Come on. You don't need a scientific study to know that a 17 year old boy competing in Track and Field or a swimming event has biological advantage over a 17 year year old girl . Look at the numbers

Boys
  • 100 meters - Ryan Raybuck, Greenwich, 10.77
  • 200 meters - Malcolm Beckford, Bloomfield, 21.72
  • 400 meters - Ja'kwan Hale, Derby, 48.52
  • 800 meters - Pierre Sylvain, Xavier, 1:54.62
  • 1600 meters - Trey Cormier, Hall, 4:14.25
  • 3200 meters - Robbie Cozean, Xavier, 9:10.97

GIRLS

  • 100 meters - Chelsea Mitchell, Canton, 11.67
  • 200 meters - Terry Miller, Bloomfield, 24.33
  • 400 meters - Alanna Smith, Danbury, 55.71
  • 800 meters - Grace Hanratty, Old Saybrook, 2:12.33
  • 1600 meters - Angela Saidman, Immaculate, 4:57.16
  • 3200 meters - Kate Wiser, Pomperaug, 10:28.91
patch.com

3 New Records Set At State Open Track and Field Championships

The boys team competition turned out to be a runaway, while the girls results were much closer.
patch.com patch.com
 
Transgender people are less than 1% of the population. Athletes, as with the general population, are perhaps 1% of transgender people. Of athletes, those reaching a professional level are not even 1%.

I'm to believe 1% of 1% of 1% will change the face of sports? Ludicrous nonsense. A transgender athlete has never won anything that anyone has heard about outside a transphobic file dump. "A 100 meter race at a small college event! That's a national championship!!" Horsecrap.

1% of 1% of 1% will not ruin anything. Such a tiny population has no power to fundamentally change sports. If a transgender athlete ever wins something that I don't learn about in a transphobic post, good for that person and good for society. It will mark progress and bigots will hate it.
 
ecofarm said:
Laughable. I won't say why because I wanna be all civilized and proper and such.
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Indeed, those folk are quite laughable. Glad to hear you agree.
 
I rest my case.
 
Rawley said:
That's the problem. It isn't those directly involved making the decisions, it's politicians. Come on. You don't need a scientific study to know that a 17 year old boy competing in Track and Field or a swimming event has biological advantage over a 17 year year old girl . Look at the numbers

Boys
  • 100 meters - Ryan Raybuck, Greenwich, 10.77
  • 200 meters - Malcolm Beckford, Bloomfield, 21.72
  • 400 meters - Ja'kwan Hale, Derby, 48.52
  • 800 meters - Pierre Sylvain, Xavier, 1:54.62
  • 1600 meters - Trey Cormier, Hall, 4:14.25
  • 3200 meters - Robbie Cozean, Xavier, 9:10.97

GIRLS

  • 100 meters - Chelsea Mitchell, Canton, 11.67
  • 200 meters - Terry Miller, Bloomfield, 24.33
  • 400 meters - Alanna Smith, Danbury, 55.71
  • 800 meters - Grace Hanratty, Old Saybrook, 2:12.33
  • 1600 meters - Angela Saidman, Immaculate, 4:57.16
  • 3200 meters - Kate Wiser, Pomperaug, 10:28.91
patch.com

3 New Records Set At State Open Track and Field Championships

The boys team competition turned out to be a runaway, while the girls results were much closer.
patch.com patch.com
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That isn't what I'm talking about.
 
NatMorton said:
As a good friend of mine once observed, whenever you read one of these "I'm declaring I identify myself as being this other gender" statements you can't help but see a bright ribbon of selfishness running through the entire proclamation. It's as if they are the center of the universe, and we must all revolve around their need to be seen as they demand to be seen.
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Nat, it might just be their way of "shouting it from the rooftops," as kind of release of feelings that they had suppressed for so many years. Since I've never been in that situation, I'm just trying to be as understanding as I can by cutting them a little slack.
 
ecofarm said:
Transgender people are less than 1% of the population. Athletes, as with the general population, are perhaps 1% of transgender people. Of athletes, those reaching a professional level are not even 1%.

I'm to believe 1% of 1% of 1% will change the face of sports? Ludicrous nonsense. A transgender athlete has never won anything that anyone has heard about outside a transphobic file dump. "A 100 meter race at a small college event! That's a national championship!!" Horsecrap.

1% of 1% of 1% will not ruin anything. Such a tiny population has no power to fundamentally change sports. If a transgender athlete ever wins something that I don't learn about in a transphobic post, good for that person and good for society. It will mark progress and bigots will hate it.
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But, Ecofarm, the way I understand it, it's not the national scene that people are concerned about, but the local, state-wide competitions.

Since I have no proof of this, you can freely consider it to be anecdotal, but I saw a national news report during the past year or so that talked about a male athlete at a high school who became a transgendered female. To be fair to her new identity, the school let her join the female track team. She promptly beat all the other girls in every event, and it wasn't even close. In doing so, she broke every female record at the school. She moved on to the district competitions and easily won every event there, too. She went on to the state level and won everything there, as well.

It would be easy to cheer her on, but when you look at all the other girls who had practiced and worked all their lives toward winning those races and awards only to have their dreams shattered by someone who had trained as a boy and who was born with a muscular advantage--well, you can understand how it broke the hearts of many, many girls and their parents.

For that reason, I think that sports that require a certain amount of strength should be restricted to the gender of which one was born. All other sports should be open to everybody.
 
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Emily L said:
But, Ecofarm, the way I understand it, it's not the national scene that people are concerned about, but the local, state-wide competitions.

Since I have no proof of this, you can freely consider it to be anecdotal, but I saw a national news report during the past year or so that talked about a male athlete at a high school who became a transgendered female. To be fair to her new identity, the school let her join the female track team. She promptly beat all the other girls in every event, and it wasn't even close. In doing so, she broke every female record at the school. She moved on to the district competitions and easily won every event there, too. She went on to the state level and won everything there, as well.

It would be easy to cheer her on, but when you look at all the other girls who had practiced and worked all their lives toward winning those races and awards only to have their dreams shattered by someone who had trained as a boy and who was born with a muscular advantage--well, you can understand how it broke the hearts of many, many girls and their parents.

For that reason, I think that sports that require a certain amount of strength should be restricted to the gender of which one was born. All other sports should be open to everybody.
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Yep, and t local and state performance can lead to scholarships and recruitment to college, etc., teams/sports, and those girls are having potentially their futures destroyed because a boy is identifying as a girl and winning everything due to his natural advantages.
 
GummyVitamins said:
Their name? Did Elliot Page come out as having multi-personality disorder or schizophrenia as well? If not, why are you attacking him by using the wrong pronouns? Transphobia is real and using the wrong pronouns costs lives.
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Using they or them is not misgendering when referring to someone and even if it were Elliot is fine with they/them pronouns. Says right in the article. Also claiming allies are transphobic is probably not the best way of keeping those allies.
 
Emily L said:
Nat, it might just be their way of "shouting it from the rooftops," as kind of release of feelings that they had suppressed for so many years. Since I've never been in that situation, I'm just trying to be as understanding as I can by cutting them a little slack.
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You're probably right about that, but selfish behavior is still selfish behavior no matter the cause. I'm just calling it out for what it is.
 
Gay/lesbian is same sex attraction. Elliot is still a female who is attracted to other females, so she/he/they is still a lesbian.

The pronoun choice he/they is silly though. Does he/they want us to say he is an actor or they is an actor?
 
Visbek said:
It hasn't been "debunked." No surprise that you've provided no links to back up your claim.

“The idea that a person’s sex is determined by their anatomy at birth is not true, and we’ve known that it’s not true for decades,” said Dr. Joshua D. Safer, an endocrinologist and executive director of the Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery at Mount Sinai Health System in New York."
www.nytimes.com

Anatomy Does Not Determine Gender, Experts Say (Published 2018)

Efforts by the Trump administration to narrowly define gender as determined by genitals defy medical and scientific knowledge.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

www.sciencedaily.com

Transgender: Evidence on the biological nature of gender identity

Medical care of transgender patients, including surgical and hormonal treatment, has largely been met with resistance by physicians in favor of psychiatric treatment, owing to misconceptions that gender identity can be changed. There is increasing evidence of a biological basis for gender...
www.sciencedaily.com
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A persons sex is defined by the sex gametes that they produce, which is linked to the sexual organs they have, and the chromosomes they possess (aside from the rare instances of intersex, which has nothing to do with transgenderism). Whether someone is male or female is determined at conception.

Elliot has female sex organs, produces female gametes, has female chromosomes, went through female puberty, and has a female skeletal structure.
Elliot is female.
 
ecofarm said:
Transgender people are less than 1% of the population. Athletes, as with the general population, are perhaps 1% of transgender people. Of athletes, those reaching a professional level are not even 1%.

I'm to believe 1% of 1% of 1% will change the face of sports? Ludicrous nonsense. A transgender athlete has never won anything that anyone has heard about outside a transphobic file dump. "A 100 meter race at a small college event! That's a national championship!!" Horsecrap.

1% of 1% of 1% will not ruin anything. Such a tiny population has no power to fundamentally change sports. If a transgender athlete ever wins something that I don't learn about in a transphobic post, good for that person and good for society. It will mark progress and bigots will hate it.
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It's no so much the impact on sports as it is the impact on individuals, even if that impact is felt by only a small number of young women. When a male athlete, identifying as female, wins a high school track race there's genuine female athlete who has been unfairly denied a victory. Maybe the only harm done in that case is disappointment for the second place finisher. Maybe it's more than that; maybe it's a missed college scholarship because the second place finisher didn't attract the attention of some college coach where a victory in that race would have. There's no way to know, but regardless of how widespread the issue is, it is manifestly unfair to have young men compete in women's athletic events. The only defense for it is to adopt a "who cares if it's unfair?" attitude, and that seems rather callous.
 
Visbek said:
:rolleyes:

"Transgenderism" is about both biological sex and gender -- specifically, it's when the individual experiences a strong mismatch between their sense of their gender, and their biological features.

And yes, that almost certainly does have a biological basis, because it is almost certainly a neurological condition that produces the experience of a mismatch.



:rolleyes:

Body Integrity Identity Dysmorphia (BIID) is very likely a neurological condition (not a psychological one). We don't really know how to treat it well, so mostly we rely on CBT and anti-depressants, which have a low success rate. As a result, there are some medical professionals who believe that surgical amputations are the best possible treatment. It's certainly better than patients who attempt and/or succeed at self-amputations, or mutilate their bodies in order to require a surgical amputation.
(E.g. https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s11673-019-09959-5.pdf)

What we don't do is tell people with BID that they are "delusional." In fact, BIID is non-delusional by definition. That not only leads to faulty treatment, it also increases the stigma, which is already often overwhelming for patients.

Anyway. Guess what? Many transgender individuals undergo extensive therapy and are on anti-depressants, and it doesn't magically stop them from experiencing gender dysphoria. Hmmmm.

Thanks, but no thanks, for the rampantly ignorant and inaccurate suggestions. Good luck submitting your work to the NEJM.



Yes, you have. You've said several times that transgenderism is a "delusion," and that we have to basically force a transgender individual to match their self-perception to their biological sex -- even though that is exactly what causes them distress.



Good news! We ARE treating them, with treatments that are appropriate for their condition. This includes, but is not limited to:

- Verifying that the gender dysphoria is persistent
- Helping them accept who they are, and how they want to be identified
- Hormone treatment
- Sex reassignment surgery

Plus, some of us recognize that the stigma of being transgender is immensely damaging, and should stop.

Maybe there will be a day when we develop a pill or procedure that, instead of matching the body to the gender perception, alters the brain's perception to match the biological sex. However, that has not worked so far, and it only makes the problem worse. Further, you can't even begin to develop those types of treatments until you recognize that transgenderism has a neurological or physiological basis. So, until that day comes, the best thing to do take transgenderism seriously, provide support, and accept their situation.
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If gender is a social construct, how can there be a neurological mismatch between that and their biological sex? Perhaps society needs to be okay with effeminate men and masculine women, because trans ideology seems to be re-enforcing gender stereotypes.
 
ecofarm said:
Transgender people are less than 1% of the population. Athletes, as with the general population, are perhaps 1% of transgender people. Of athletes, those reaching a professional level are not even 1%.

I'm to believe 1% of 1% of 1% will change the face of sports? Ludicrous nonsense. A transgender athlete has never won anything that anyone has heard about outside a transphobic file dump. "A 100 meter race at a small college event! That's a national championship!!" Horsecrap.

1% of 1% of 1% will not ruin anything. Such a tiny population has no power to fundamentally change sports. If a transgender athlete ever wins something that I don't learn about in a transphobic post, good for that person and good for society. It will mark progress and bigots will hate it.
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Do only elite athletes matter? Is an unfair advantage okay if it's a school or university level? What about the woman who loses out to a sports scholarship to a university or the girls who doesn't get into her school team? Why can't transwomen compete in the male category, since they are actually biologically male?

Allowing males to compete against females in female sports despite the obvious physiological advantages they have, just to make them feel better is dumb and seriously unfair, as well as sexist.
 
buck said:
Ellen Page publicly comes out as a transgender male named Elliot, says: 'My pronouns are he/they' | Daily Mail Online

I don't care if she is transgender.. and she should live her life however she wants. Although I won't consider Ellen a "he".

But, I was reading this story, and wondering what does that mean for her wife?

The wife is now married to, what people that follow this ideology believe, to be a man. Many will believe she was always a man.

Does this mean that the wife is no longer a lesbian and the wife is, and always was, a cis, hetero woman?
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So now shes part of the white male patriarchy and we should hate him.
 
ASHES said:
Elliot pages gender is not unknown or disregarded.
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Actually, it is unknown. Elliot has called himself/themselves a non-binary transperson (how exactly can your gender be both non-binary and trans?) and Elliots pronouns are confusing - he/they. Should we be saying he is or they is or they are?
 
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