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July 4

Dittohead not!

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Eleven score and 17 years ago, our founders signed a document that started out the greatest experiment in self governance the world had ever known.

Now, 237 years later, how has that experiment changed, for better or worse?

For better: In 1776 "all men" meant "all white males". Today, it means "all mankind"
or does it? Perhaps it just means "all Americans." At least, the meaning has expanded.

but, "all men are created equal", meaning equal in opportunity, equal before the law still rings true.

For worse: "that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men" has come to include a whole lot more than securing rights. People seem more interested in security than in rights 237 years after the signing of the declaration.

What might this experiment in self governance produce in another 237 years?

Wild speculation is acceptable for that last one.
 

iacardsfan

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What might this experiment in self governance produce in another 237 years?
This depends on whether or not the United States breaks out of the two party system in the near future. The Democrats and Republicans are an endless cycle of mishaps only to be re-elected. It is only a matter of time before the totally destroy what our founding fathers gave us. If we can break the cycle, then I believe there is an eventual brighter future of equal opportunity and advancement. As I have said in the past, compared to Barack Obama or Mitt Romney any 3rd party would have been such a better choice for the White House. Not because of better political prowess per-say, but just to break the ominous cycle of voting the same flaws back into office in different forms.
 

pbrauer

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Despite what the right wing says, President Obama is not nor is he trying to destroy America. I predict that this nation will continue another 237 years and we'll be just as divided then as we are now.

Question: Do they have Fourth of July in England?
 

Velvet Elvis

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Hell, I wonder how many government-schooled kids nowadays even know what holiday falls on July 4th. Most folks see the 4th just as "a day off."
 

Helix

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i'd say we're doing ok. on the human rights front, we've trailed in places, but we're still fairly cutting edge. our role inn WWII was absolutely critical; i still look at that as one of the most defining and impactful historical events. what we've done since on the military front, i haven't been as happy with.

i think America's role in the world will change in the next century, becoming more like a nation and less like a global police force. as for self governance, i don't think it's a failed experiment at all. the partisan system needs some major tweaks, but that's up to us to demand.
 

CanadaJohn

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I don't know what the next 237 years holds in store for your great country and great people since I'll only be around for a minor fraction of that time, but I wish all of you a happy birthday and many more happy ones to come. And I hope, whatever happens, Canada and Canadians will always remain best of friends with you and your country.
 

Captain Adverse

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I don't know what the next 237 years holds in store for your great country and great people since I'll only be around for a minor fraction of that time, but I wish all of you a happy birthday and many more happy ones to come. And I hope, whatever happens, Canada and Canadians will always remain best of friends with you and your country.
Thanks. :) Luv you guys too (even if you do talk funny, aay?) lol jk ;)
 

jonny5

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Eleven score and 17 years ago, our founders signed a document that started out the greatest experiment in self governance the world had ever known.

Now, 237 years later, how has that experiment changed, for better or worse?

For better: In 1776 "all men" meant "all white males". Today, it means "all mankind"
or does it? Perhaps it just means "all Americans." At least, the meaning has expanded.

but, "all men are created equal", meaning equal in opportunity, equal before the law still rings true.

For worse: "that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men" has come to include a whole lot more than securing rights. People seem more interested in security than in rights 237 years after the signing of the declaration.

What might this experiment in self governance produce in another 237 years?

Wild speculation is acceptable for that last one.
I think we're close to where we started. An abusive govt, and a majority that tyrannizes the minority. Elections don't change anything because the Parties and the media keep out minority opinions. People are not free to try things differently because power is invested in the few people who run the govt instead of the individual. Govt takes your wealth, gives it to people who didn't earn it. It controls the economy, and regulates us to a stand still. Its administrators think of themselves as celebrities or nobleman and waste our money on parties and pet projects instead of focusing on executing the law. It pursues a policy of involving itself in other countries affairs instead of focusing on defending our lives.

Yes, our standard of living is pretty good as a whole, but at the expense of individual freedom.

Solution? Break up the monopoly. Individual states have more people and resources than the entire original 13. There is no reason a state could not be entirely independent from the union and yet share a military if it wishes.
 

calamity

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Hell, I wonder how many government-schooled kids nowadays even know what holiday falls on July 4th. Most folks see the 4th just as "a day off."
You've got to be kidding. Public schools don't teach kids about the 4th of July? :roll:
 

fmw

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I think we're close to where we started. An abusive govt, and a majority that tyrannizes the minority.
Curious statement. Isn't democracy theoretically about rule of the majority?
 

jonny5

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Yes we are. We're a representative democracy.
As dittohead said, we are a republic. Power is exercised by representatives, and is supposed to be limited to only what is constitutionally allowed. The founders never intended for the majority or minority to tyrannize each other, but for power to be from the bottom up, with individuals having the most power (over themselves), and govt having the least.

Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

“A Republic, if you can keep it.”
-Benjamin Franklin
 

Velvet Elvis

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You've got to be kidding. Public schools don't teach kids about the 4th of July? :roll:
Yes, they teach kids about Independence Day, however I believe they dumb-down the meaning. Government schools love to teach dates, but never context. When I was in school, I remember HATING history. Everything was dates, dates, dates. Whole concepts were glossed over. History was taught "safely." For instance, how many kids think the Civil War was fought over slavery? How many kids know something about Benedict Arnold aside from when he turned traitor? It was only after I was out of school, did I appreciate history. Since then, I've read dozens of books over dozens of different periods of time. The "what" that they drilled about in school, has now been replaced with the "why" and "how," which makes history so much more meaningful. It is this, that is what government schools severely lack.
 

calamity

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Yes, they teach kids about Independence Day, however I believe they dumb-down the meaning. Government schools love to teach dates, but never context. When I was in school, I remember HATING history. Everything was dates, dates, dates. Whole concepts were glossed over. History was taught "safely." For instance, how many kids think the Civil War was fought over slavery? How many kids know something about Benedict Arnold aside from when he turned traitor? It was only after I was out of school, did I appreciate history. Since then, I've read dozens of books over dozens of different periods of time. The "what" that they drilled about in school, has now been replaced with the "why" and "how," which makes history so much more meaningful. It is this, that is what government schools severely lack.
I see your point now. Funny you mention it. I read a while back that most Americans think WW2 actually began in 1941, this includes the adults.
 

Dittohead not!

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I wonder whether these people actually attended any school, government or otherwise:


To be fair, that appears to be California, and California actually did declare its independence from Mexico, just not on July 4,1776, or even 1976, but on June 14, 1846.
 
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We are a Constitutional Republic. The supreme law of the land is the Constitution, not the will of the people.
if I may ... our government works best when it protects the minority against the tyranny of the majority ...
 

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I believe the US is threading water today and will eventually decline. No...the country won't be filled with poor hapless American and starving kids on the streets. Rather, the military will be significantly reduced, the American "brand" globally will at best be meaningless ....realistically it won't be something people wear on their chest to boast about when they visit foreign countries.

Part of this has absolutely nothing to do with America ....the rest of the world is just inevitably catching up....and the advent of Technology makes this easier. Soon you'll go abroad and say I'm an American ...and to foreigners it will sound the same as ...I'm Bulgarian.

But part of it is that the American people, I feel, at this juncture falsely romanticize about these white-washed "founding-fathers" !!

They are stuck with this story that decades ago a set of perfect men dropped out of the sky ....wrote these documents ...went back up in the sky!!
And that's it...nobody else must ever have another thought after this.

It has often caused the country to be paralyzed and stuck. That era was all about slavery .....today's Americans must start thinking to create their own history.

When I hear the words ..."founding fathers"....it's an indication to me that here's where the ..brain shuts off....and doctrine takes over!!

I actually believe every word of those doctrine should be looked at and re-written ....because it's hard for me to think of slave-owners the way many do when they talk of these "fathers".
 

Heebie Jeebie

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Despite what the right wing says, President Obama is not nor is he trying to destroy America. I predict that this nation will continue another 237 years and we'll be just as divided then as we are now.

Question: Do they have Fourth of July in England?
If there is a July on the calander there is a 4th of July, unless it is a REALLLLLY short month :)
 

jonny5

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if I may ... our government works best when it protects the minority against the tyranny of the majority ...
And vice versa. A tyranny by the minority is just as bad, such as how a minority of 535 politicians in congress control every aspect of our life with endless laws.
 
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And vice versa. A tyranny by the minority is just as bad, such as how a minority of 535 politicians in congress control every aspect of our life with endless laws.
the minority to which you refer are corporate heads and the ultra rich, who in turn control the Congress
 

jonny5

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the minority to which you refer are corporate heads and the ultra rich, who in turn control the Congress
Actually, you proved my point. Assuming they control congress, congress actually makes the final decision, thus they are the ones in control.
 
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