Judith Miller cannot remember ??

[cnredd]

From Simon's post...

Novak's remarks:

Novak said in an interview last night that the request came at the end of a conversation about Wilson's trip to Niger and his wife's role in it. "They said it's doubtful she'll ever again have a foreign assignment," he said. "They said if her name was printed, it might be difficult if she was traveling abroad, and they said they would prefer I didn't use her name. It was a very weak request. If it was put on a stronger basis, I would have considered it." [emphasis added]

Harlow (CIA) remarks:

[Bill Harlow, former CIA spokesman,]... said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow ... checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified. [emphasis added]

So who is at fault here?

Actually, this part of the so-called 'outing' may be irrelevant (except in principal) given the apparent attention now being given to questions of perjury and obstruction.

I was thinking the same thing while I was reading...I also thought of two other points...

1) Simon points to an article which states that the next-door neighbors didn't know of her job, yet it doesn't refute what the Washington post article I sourced earlier states...

But in interviews with The Washington Times, most of Mrs. Plame's neighbors in Northwest Washington said they knew she worked for the CIA.

I doubt one example would successfully debunk the Washington Post's claim of "most of Mrs. Plame's neighbors"...

2) It seems we have DIRECT OPPOSITE CLAIMS which we cannot tell who is being truthful...sources are in previous posts...

Robert Novak - "Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report."

senior intelligence official - "confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked "alongside" the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.

But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment."

Unless there is an innocent explanation for getting wires cross...which I don't see...It looks like someone is outright lying...

 

[Stinger]

Assuming that any laws made were not just for "outing" to the press, but "outing" to ANYONE, could someone please explain why Wilson & Plame wouldn't be indicted for letting out such "privileged infornation" to their local community?

My guess would be that the information doesn't seem as "privileged" as some want to believe...

But if someone disagrees, I'm still looking for an answer...

I wonder if Fitzgerald asked Wilson for the CIA release which allowed him to write about his secret mission in public and did the CIA approve of it's content.

 

[Stinger]

If her identity as an operative was not classified, then the CIA should be held accountable for requesting an investigation into the disclosure of non-classified information.

My understanding is that it is SOP for the CIA to refer any such occurences to the justice department for review. And with all the publicity about it I can well see why they did that just to get it off their backs.

I can't help but think that if her identity as an operative was not classified, that someone would have noticed before it got to the grand jury stage.

As cite elsewhere she worked at the CIA under her own name, she had not served overseas for over 5 years. Victoria Tsensing who helped write the law has stated over and over this law does not apply to people like Plame.

It's unfathomable to me why the CIA would have gone through the troule of requesting an investigation if her identity as an operative was not classified.

They refer it and with all the uproar by the left there was no way this was not going to be investigated.

Anyone have any theories as to why the CIA woudl request an investigation into the disclosure of her identity as a CIA employee if her identity as an operative was not classified?
What do the "she wasn't covert" conspiracists believe on this count?

For all we know Plame and Wilson may have the you know what's in a wringer. I can certainly see thier less than honest behavior in this matter.

 

[Stinger]

>>The secret was that Mrs. Wilson was a CIA operative.<<

The minute she married a diplomat she lost her ability to act as an undercover agent. We do not have ambassadores who act as spies, that would be highly out of order in the diplomatic world. She became a known entity at that point. And it was not a secret she worked at CIA.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

My understanding is that it is SOP for the CIA to refer any such occurences to the justice department for review. And with all the publicity about it I can well see why they did that just to get it off their backs.

What "such occurrences"?
Please be so kind as to describe what you mean by the phrase "such occurrences."

They refer it and with all the uproar by the left there was no way this was not going to be investigated.

Yet, if her identity as an operative were not classified, then there is nothing to be investigated, uproar or no uproar.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Wow, this makes me feel alot better because nobody, regardless of what they say, knows what the hell is going on in this situation, shoot it wasn't until post #45 (my post by the way) that the name Novak was even mentioned, which brings me to the conclusion that no one here has any idea of what they're talking about.

 

[Stinger]

What "such occurrences"?
Please be so kind as to describe what you mean by the phrase "such occurrences."

Whenever an employee, current or former, who may come under the law and whose name is mentioned in connection with that employment is published or publicy it is standard to ask the Justice Department to look into any violation which may have occoured. That it is not an unusual occourence there are hundreds of them each year.

Yet, if her identity as an operative were not classified,

The minute Wilson went public with assertions he based on his mission he outed her. OF COURSE, there would be questions as to "who the heck sent him on this mission in the first place" and that was his wife who worked at the CIA. He compounded this by out right lying about it claiming that the office of VP Cheney sent him. To sit here and imagine that the office of VP Cheney would not react would not get the truth of the matter out is absurd.

then there is nothing to be investigated, uproar or no uproar.

Nope read the letter Fitzgerald posted, his investigative territory goes beyond just the core issue, was she covered under the law as a covert operative (even thought she worked openly at Langley under her own name, driving a car there every morning that was registered he her own name).

The question is why haven't Plame and Wilson been indicted. Who gave Wilson permission to make public statements about his CIA mission? Was his wife in on his plot to lie to the public about who sent him there and did she report to her superiors that he was lying in his NYT essay? Also beginning to wonder if Miller didn't lie to the grand jury and maybe someone else we haven't even speculated about is involved in a conspiricy.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Whenever an employee, current or former, who may come under the law and whose name is mentioned in connection with that employment is published or publicy it is standard to ask the Justice Department to look into any violation which may have occoured.

So if her status wasn't classified, it wouldn't fall into the category of "such occurences," correct?

The minute Wilson went public with assertions he based on his mission he outed her. OF COURSE, there would be questions as to "who the heck sent him on this mission in the first place" and that was his wife who worked at the CIA.

Funny, the CIA still says that this ain't how it happened. Why should I believe you over the CIA re CIA affairs?

Nope read the letter Fitzgerald posted, his investigative territory goes beyond just the core issue, was she covered under the law as a covert operative (even thought she worked openly at Langley under her own name, driving a car there every morning that was registered he her own name).

Please post the relevant language you are alluding to.

 

[Stinger]

So if her status wasn't classified, it wouldn't fall into the category of "such occurences," correct?

Nope, she was at one time on the payroll of a convert CIA cover company. Therefore she MAY have come under the law in question and the CIA referred it to Justice (instead of the CIA investigating themselves).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
The minute Wilson went public with assertions he based on his mission he outed her. OF COURSE, there would be questions as to "who the heck sent him on this mission in the first place" and that was his wife who worked at the CIA.

Funny, the CIA still says that this ain't how it happened. Why should I believe you over the CIA re CIA affairs?

Although what I said has nothing to do with the CIA I must ask how do you claim the CIA currently claims it happened, are you stating that Plame had nothing to do with his selection?
Please post the relevant language you are alluding to.

That being said you don't think the office of the VP starting scratching their heads when Wilson claimed he was on a mission by thier direct order? OF COURSE questions were asked and rightfull someone got the truth out.

Please post the relevant language you are alluding to.

"At your request, I am writing to clarify that my December 30, 2003, delegation to you of 'all the authority of the Attorney General with respect to the Department's investigation into the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee's identity' is plenary and includes the authority to investigate and prosecute violations of any federal criminal laws related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure, as well as federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, your investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses."

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/index.html 2/6/2004 letter

So it is not just a matter of determining if she was covered by the law, it's what happened afterward and that might well be what has taken so long.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Nope, she was at one time on the payroll of a convert CIA cover company. Therefore she MAY have come under the law in question and the CIA referred it to Justice (instead of the CIA investigating themselves).

Actually, the CIA did investigate the matter themselves before turning it over to the DoJ.
The CIA first submitted the matter to the review of "subject matter experts." The CIA then forwarded "a written crimes report" to the DoJ. The "CIA reported to the criminal division of DOJ a possible violation of criminal law concerning the unauthorized disclosure of classified information."

Originally Posted by Stinger
The minute Wilson went public with assertions he based on his mission he outed her. OF COURSE, there would be questions as to "who the heck sent him on this mission in the first place" and that was his wife who worked at the CIA.

Although what I said has nothing to do with the CIA ...

Somehow I got the impression that you were saying that Valerie Wilson was "who the heck sent him on this mission in the first place." I hope you can see how I got this mistaken impression based on the language you used.

... I must ask how do you claim the CIA currently claims it happened, are you stating that Plame had nothing to do with his selection?

Leaks Probe Is Gathering Momentum

Sources said the CIA is angry about the circulation of a still-classified document to conservative news outlets suggesting Plame had a role in arranging her husband's trip to Africa for the CIA. The document, written by a State Department official who works for its Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), describes a meeting at the CIA where the Niger trip by Wilson was discussed, said a senior administration official who has seen it.

CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR document, the official said, because the agency officer identified as talking about Plame's alleged role in arranging Wilson's trip could not have attended the meeting.
​

&

A senior intelligence official confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked "alongside" the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.

But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. "They [the officers who did ask Wilson to check the uranium story] were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising," he said. "There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason," he said. "I can't figure out what it could be."
​

&

Prosecutor In CIA Leak Case Casting A Wide Net
By Walter Pincus and Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, July 27, 2005; A01

[Bush officials] said that his 2002 trip to Niger was a boondoggle arranged by his wife, but CIA officials say that is incorrect. One reason for the confusion about Plame's role is that she had arranged a trip for him to Niger three years earlier on an unrelated matter, CIA officials told The Washington Post.

[Bill Harlow, former CIA spokesman,]... said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow ... checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.
​

That being said you don't think the office of the VP starting scratching their heads when Wilson claimed he was on a mission by thier direct order?

If you would, would you please post where "Wilson claimed he was on a mission by thier direct order?"

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/index.html 2/6/2004 letter
So it is not just a matter of determining if she was covered by the law, it's what happened afterward and that might well be what has taken so long.

This does not pertain to what initiated the investigation.
This is a letter that was written almost a year after the investigation began.
So, as such, it is irrelevant to my statement, "... if her identity as an operative were not classified, then there is nothing to be investigated, uproar or no uproar."
Just because AFTER the investigation started it turned out that there was more to be seen, it doesn't mean that what came up subsequently was what started the investigation. What initiated the investigation was "the disclosure earlier that year of the identity of an employee operating undercover"

 

[Stinger]

Actually, the CIA did investigate the matter themselves before turning it over to the DoJ.
The CIA first submitted the matter to the review of "subject matter experts." The CIA then forwarded "a written crimes report" to the DoJ. The "CIA reported to the criminal division of DOJ a possible violation of criminal law concerning the unauthorized disclosure of classified information."

Yes pretty standard proceedure in a case such as this as I have already said. The CIA does not determine if a crime has been committed, that is not their job that's the job of the justice department.

Somehow I got the impression that you were saying that Valerie Wilson was "who the heck sent him on this mission in the first place." I hope you can see how I got this mistaken impression based on the language you used.

She certainly had a role in it according to the 9/11 commission.

According to the Washington Post: "The report states that a CIA official told the Senate committee that Plame "offered up" Wilson's name for the Niger trip, then on Feb. 12, 2002, sent a memo to a deputy chief in the CIA's Directorate of Operations saying her husband "has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." The next day, the operations official cabled an overseas officer seeking concurrence with the idea of sending Wilson, the report said.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1169424/posts

Are you disputing this and that the memo exist?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A30842-2003Dec25&notFound=true

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-phelps0722,0,2044545.story

A senior intelligence official confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked "alongside" the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.

But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. "They [the officers who did ask Wilson to check the uranium story] were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising," he said. "There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason," he said. "I can't figure out what it could be."

Why would they pick him without any reccomendation, did not know him other than he was married to Plame, when he has not experience or expertise in the matter?
​

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/26/AR2005072602069_pf.html

[Bush officials] said that his 2002 trip to Niger was a boondoggle arranged by his wife, but CIA officials say that is incorrect. One reason for the confusion about Plame's role is that she had arranged a trip for him to Niger three years earlier on an unrelated matter, CIA officials told The Washington Post.

And how does he suddenly get a secret undercover job for the CIA?

[Bill Harlow, former CIA spokesman,]... said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow ... checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

And where is the evidence that she was still an undercover agent, and why did she operate under her own name if she was?
​

If you would, would you please post where "Wilson claimed he was on a mission by thier direct order?"

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office."

And of course we found out latter that the government didn't get the "memo" until months after he made his trip.

[/FONT]

This does not pertain to what initiated the investigation.

So what?

This is a letter that was written almost a year after the investigation began.

So what?

So, as such, it is irrelevant to my statement, "... if her identity as an operative were not classified, then there is nothing to be investigated, uproar or no uproar."

Sigh, go back to the top and see what initiated the investigation, then once it was underway what kept it going may have had nothing to do with the core issue as to whether she was undercover but other matters which as the letter states Fitzgerald was authorized to investigate. You seem to believe that if there is an investigation then that proves there is a crime. That is certainly not the case.

Just because AFTER the investigation started it turned out that there was more to be seen, it doesn't mean that what came up subsequently was what started the investigation. What initiated the investigation was "the disclosure earlier that year of the identity of an employee operating undercover"

No one said that. And do you yet have a shred of evidence she was working under cover, under a phoney identity, and the CIA actively covering her identity? I can find no evidence that she was and much contrary to that.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Yes pretty standard proceedure in a case such as this as I have already said. The CIA does not determine if a crime has been committed, that is not their job that's the job of the justice department.

The CIA's investigation could have shown that it was impossible for a crime to have been committed as would have been the case if V. Wilson had not been an operative. The investigation would have been still-born.

Are you disputing this and that the memo exist?

I'm just repeating what the CIA has said

Why would they pick him without any reccomendation, did not know him other than he was married to Plame, when he has not experience or expertise in the matter?

He has experience w/ Africa.

And where is the evidence that she was still an undercover agent, and why did she operate under her own name if she was?

A CIA spokesman said she was an undercover operative. What more would you like?

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office."[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] AFAICT, this says that agency officials asked him to travel to Niger. Where's the part where [/FONT]"Wilson claimed he was on a mission by thier [office of the VP's] direct order?"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

So what?

1) Originally Posted by SWM
It's unfathomable to me why the CIA would have gone through the trouble of requesting an investigation if her identity as an operative was not classified.

This establlishes the subject under discussion- why the CIA would have gone through the trouble of requesting an investigation if her identity as an operative was not classified

2) Originally Posted by Stinger They refer it and with all the uproar by the left there was no way this was not going to be investigated.

3) Originally Posted by SWM
Yet, if her identity as an operative were not classified, then there is nothing to be investigated, uproar or no uproar.

4) Originally Posted by Stinger
Nope read the letter Fitzgerald posted, his investigative territory goes beyond just the core issue, was she covered under the law as a covert operative (even thought she worked openly at Langley under her own name, driving a car there every morning that was registered he her own name).

In re why the CIA would have gone through the trouble of requesting an investigation if her identity as an operative was not classified you say that there would have been an investigation even if her identity as an operative was not classified and to establish this, you cite events that occurred after the investigation had begun.
Obviously, if the events occurred after the investigation had begun, they could not be the cause for the investigation.

You seem to believe that if there is an investigation then that proves there is a crime.

Not at all.
What I'm saying is that there must be the possibility of a crime for there to have been a DoJ investigation. The CIA looked into it and found that there was indeed the possibility of a crime. If her identity as an operative was not classified, then there could be no possibility of a crime. Since the CIA found that there was a possibility of a crime, they referred it to the DoJ. If there had not been a possibility of a crime, then the CIA would not have referred it to the DoJ.

I can find no evidence that she was and much contrary to that.

I provided an instance where a CIA spokesman said she was an undercover operative. I bolded it. Why can't you find it?