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Judge Blocks Ohio PP Law

Henrin said:
No, it's not. The government funds abortions in cases to save the life of the mother or in cases where the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest.
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That would actually be sensible. Do you have a link?
 
Henrin said:
It's called the hyde amendment.
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Ah, that "socialist" Hyde. Spending a dime of government money to save a mother's life is only a step away from tyranny.

Seriously, are you arguing that funds used by PP to abort in order to save a mother's life or in cases of incest or rape is a bad thing?

I see Clinton signed it. I guess that in order to get his sig on that bill, the Gingrich clan had to add in those exceptions. Good.
 
Fletch said:
Describe what a ZEF is please.
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Zygote, Embryo Fetus.

Zygote: a diploid cell resulting from the fusion of two haploid gametes; a fertilized ovum.

Embryo: an unborn or unhatched offspring in the process of development.

Fetus: an unborn offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.


I hope that helps.
 
Fletch said:
What sort of zygote, embryo, fetus grows in the womb of a woman?
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Stop asking for things you already know, does not change anything I wrote.
 
Peter King said:
Stop asking for things you already know, does not change anything I wrote.
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I am trying to get you to think beyond your ideological straight jacket. Obviously, I am having no success. Here are some facts for you to digest--if you can stomach them. What grows inside the womb of a woman is a human life. Abortion ends that life. There is no arguing that. Life deniers, like yourself, will try, but only look moronic in the process. Abortion ends a human life. That is the purpose of having one. Now go stick your head back in the sand
 
Fletch said:
I am trying to get you to think beyond your ideological straight jacket. Obviously, I am having no success. Here are some facts for you to digest--if you can stomach them. What grows inside the womb of a woman is a human life. Abortion ends that life. There is no arguing that. Life deniers, like yourself, will try, but only look moronic in the process. Abortion ends a human life. That is the purpose of having one. Now go stick your head back in the sand
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Certainly, terminating a pregnancy terminates a human life. I suspect few people would deny that reality. What is usually argued is that said human had no right to life, which is something I agree to be true. A human does not have right to life until it is born, which is as it should be.
 
Fletch said:
I am trying to get you to think beyond your ideological straight jacket. Obviously, I am having no success. Here are some facts for you to digest--if you can stomach them. What grows inside the womb of a woman is a human life. Abortion ends that life. There is no arguing that. Life deniers, like yourself, will try, but only look moronic in the process. Abortion ends a human life. That is the purpose of having one. Now go stick your head back in the sand
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I am not in an ideological straight jacket, I am quite loosely fitting but unlike you, I am not willing to dictate to women what they can and cannot do in the early part of their pregnancy.

You are the one who ideologically attribute rights and properties on zygotes that a zygote does not legally or biologically have and you want to make that view the one all laws should be held accountable to. In other words that zygote has all the right and the woman has none of them.

That is an ideological straight jacket against women's rights. I am fine with people thinking it is a person with all the rights they have and because of that never thinking/wanting an abortion. I do not care that they feel other people should view it the same. I have a problem with it when they are trying to force women to live according to their views on what a ZEF is.

I am fully out of the sand, it is you who is in it and who does not care about the human rights of women purely do enforce your views on the unborn on other people.
 
Peter King said:
I am not in an ideological straight jacket, I am quite loosely fitting but unlike you, I am not willing to dictate to women what they can and cannot do in the early part of their pregnancy.

You are the one who ideologically attribute rights and properties on zygotes that a zygote does not legally or biologically have and you want to make that view the one all laws should be held accountable to. In other words that zygote has all the right and the woman has none of them.

That is an ideological straight jacket against women's rights. I am fine with people thinking it is a person with all the rights they have and because of that never thinking/wanting an abortion. I do not care that they feel other people should view it the same. I have a problem with it when they are trying to force women to live according to their views on what a ZEF is.

I am fully out of the sand, it is you who is in it and who does not care about the human rights of women purely do enforce your views on the unborn on other people.
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Try to pay attention and not shift the goal posts and it just might be possible to have a rational discussion with you. Though I dont hold out much hope. Tell me, where did I mention the word 'rights?' Thats right, I didnt. Where did I mention forcing my views on other people? Thats right, I didnt. So if you cant follow along with what I am saying, kindly excuse yourself from the discussion and allow someone who might approach this topic from an intellectually honest position take your place.

I am speaking of what it is that is being aborted, nothing more. You arrogantly mock those who say what is being ended is a human life when that is exactly what it is. You label it a ZEF so that you can exterminate it it without the burden of having to make a messy moral judgement on the matter. What is being aborted is a human life. That is a fact. You simply ignore that fact so that nothing stands in the way of your amoral political stance on the matter.
 
Fletch said:
Try to pay attention and not shift the goal posts and it just might be possible to have a rational discussion with you. Though I dont hold out much hope. Tell me, where did I mention the word 'rights?' Thats right, I didnt. Where did I mention forcing my views on other people? Thats right, I didnt. So if you cant follow along with what I am saying, kindly excuse yourself from the discussion and allow someone who might approach this topic from an intellectually honest position take your place.

I am speaking of what it is that is being aborted, nothing more. You arrogantly mock those who say what is being ended is a human life when that is exactly what it is. You label it a ZEF so that you can exterminate it it without the burden of having to make a messy moral judgement on the matter. What is being aborted is a human life. That is a fact. You simply ignore that fact so that nothing stands in the way of your amoral political stance on the matter.
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No, people type 'zef' to save a whole bunch of keystrokes. Not everyone thinks of the zef as a *separate* life in the early stages of gestation. Doesn't make them wrong and you right or vice versa, it's just a different opinion.
 
Fletch said:
Try to pay attention and not shift the goal posts and it just might be possible to have a rational discussion with you. Though I dont hold out much hope. Tell me, where did I mention the word 'rights?' Thats right, I didnt. Where did I mention forcing my views on other people? Thats right, I didnt. So if you cant follow along with what I am saying, kindly excuse yourself from the discussion and allow someone who might approach this topic from an intellectually honest position take your place.

I am speaking of what it is that is being aborted, nothing more. You arrogantly mock those who say what is being ended is a human life when that is exactly what it is. You label it a ZEF so that you can exterminate it it without the burden of having to make a messy moral judgement on the matter. What is being aborted is a human life. That is a fact. You simply ignore that fact so that nothing stands in the way of your amoral political stance on the matter.
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I paid attention, I just think your views are wrong, especially wrong for women.

And I do not shift any goal posts, how do you have a rational discussion with someone who does not have a rational position because as much as you think that I do not have a rational position, I personally know for sure you don't have one.

And you may not have mentioned right, but this is the abortion forum and the abortion discussion has to do with one thing and one thing only, pro-lifers wanting to rob women of the right to choose and pro-choicers wanting to protect that right.

I do not mock people, I just disagree with your position that it is a human life that is being aborted because it is clearly only the chance of a human life that is growing inside the uterus of a woman, purely depending on luck and on the views of the mother.

And I call it a ZEF because I do not like to type out the entire abbreviation simply because people falsely claim there is something wrong with abbreviating something.

What is aborted is a ZEF, I do not ignore anything. Again you might view it is a human life, I see it as a potential of a human life. Because being human and alive means you must at least have a functioning brain. I am a believer in brain birth just like I believe in brain death.
 
Peter King said:
I paid attention, I just think your views are wrong, especially wrong for women.

And I do not shift any goal posts, how do you have a rational discussion with someone who does not have a rational position because as much as you think that I do not have a rational position, I personally know for sure you don't have one.
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Really? My position is that abortion ends a human life. Explain how that is not a rational position. What does it mean to be pregnant? What do you think happens if you dont abort the pregnancy. What is the purpose of an abortion? Try answering those questions honestly and then we can continue.
 
Scrabaholic said:
No, people type 'zef' to save a whole bunch of keystrokes. Not everyone thinks of the zef as a *separate* life in the early stages of gestation. Doesn't make them wrong and you right or vice versa, it's just a different opinion.
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No, people type ZEF because it dehumanizes the conversation. You can abort a ZEF without a moral twitch of the eye. Call it what it is--a human life--and that becomes far more difficult
 
Fletch said:
Really? My position is that abortion ends a human life. Explain how that is not a rational position. What does it mean to be pregnant? What do you think happens if you dont abort the pregnancy. What is the purpose of an abortion? Try answering those questions honestly and then we can continue.
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As a prolifer myself please stop saying "It(abortion) ends a human life. That is a scientific and medical fact. " because neither science nor the medical fields support that statement. The majority of times a life does end but there are time where it doesn't so you'll have to change your statement to reflect reality. The only way to have good discussions on this topic it be honest, avoid rhetoric or things that are inaccurate. Opinions and emotions will always be vast but where facts exists they must be used and respected.
 
Fletch said:
No, people type ZEF because it dehumanizes the conversation. You can abort a ZEF without a moral twitch of the eye. Call it what it is--a human life--and that becomes far more difficult
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Again this rhetoric that is simply counterproductive, pro lifers and doctors also use the term. I have used it myself is situations. How can an acronym for 3 stages of human life be used to dehumanize that doesn't even make sense.
 
sangha said:
There is nothing about this issue that has anything to do with what the government *must* do.

It's about what the govt can NOT do.
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No, the Constitution states what the feds can do. Everything else is a right of the states.
 
Peter King said:
I paid attention, I just think your views are wrong, especially wrong for women.

And I do not shift any goal posts, how do you have a rational discussion with someone who does not have a rational position because as much as you think that I do not have a rational position, I personally know for sure you don't have one.

And you may not have mentioned right, but this is the abortion forum and the abortion discussion has to do with one thing and one thing only, pro-lifers wanting to rob women of the right to choose and pro-choicers wanting to protect that right.

I do not mock people, I just disagree with your position that it is a human life that is being aborted because it is clearly only the chance of a human life that is growing inside the uterus of a woman, purely depending on luck and on the views of the mother.

And I call it a ZEF because I do not like to type out the entire abbreviation simply because people falsely claim there is something wrong with abbreviating something.

What is aborted is a ZEF, I do not ignore anything. Again you might view it is a human life, I see it as a potential of a human life. Because being human and alive means you must at least have a functioning brain. I am a believer in brain birth just like I believe in brain death.
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A ZEF is in fact human life, there's no debating that fact and while you may have your own personal feelings about it, it remains human life. Now if you would like to discuss if all states of human life can because a human being feel free. Science has the same debate, they aren't sure nor do they all agree but nobody in the science community supports the idea that a ZEF isn't human life because that would be inaccurate. I think you may be having an issue between adj and noun.
 
LaylaWindu said:
As a prolifer myself please stop saying "It(abortion) ends a human life. That is a scientific and medical fact. " because neither science nor the medical fields support that statement. The majority of times a life does end but there are time where it doesn't so you'll have to change your statement to reflect reality. The only way to have good discussions on this topic it be honest, avoid rhetoric or things that are inaccurate. Opinions and emotions will always be vast but where facts exists they must be used and respected.
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Thats what is being discussed here.
 
LaylaWindu said:
Again this rhetoric that is simply counterproductive, pro lifers and doctors also use the term. I have used it myself is situations. How can an acronym for 3 stages of human life be used to dehumanize that doesn't even make sense.
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Sure, there are exceptions, but I stand by my post.
 
Fletch said:
Sure, there are exceptions, but I stand by my post.
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You post is inaccurate and counterproductive. You view is the exception not the term. 99% of the time it's not to dehumanize.
 
LaylaWindu said:
Yet, your statement isn't true the way you said it, was it simply a mistake?
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Abortion ends a human life is a true statement.

LaylaWindu said:
You post is inaccurate and counterproductive. You view is the exception not the term. 99% of the time it's not to dehumanize.
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Among pro choicers, the term is used 99% of the time to dehumanize. So my post is accurate and productive in exposing the amorality of pro abortion left.
 
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