John Mearshiemer View On How We Got To The War In Ukraine

[oneworld2]

Rather than try to show us another video, why don't you link something of Burns supporting Mearsheimer's views...hard to do with Kennan, seeing as how he's been dead almost twenty years.
But if you're arguing "Soviet containment" and then pretending that siding with Putin's view of "NATO aggression", your logic has failed in a rather spectacular manner because NATO was formed to prevent
Soviet style expansionism into Europe.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine IS Soviet style encroachment into Europe, because NATO membership or lack thereof notwithstanding, Ukraine is the largest Eastern European democracy, and as democracy is the will of
the Ukrainian people, they're definitely not part of Russia.
Your ham-handed attempt to rehab Putin's views on Ukraine as being NATO policy on Soviet containment are laughable.

^^ snipped for word count.

Burns was US ambassador to Russia and said in a cable entitled ............ Nyet means Nyet. NATO Enlargement Redlines ( 2008 ) wherein Burns cautioned that the issue of NATO membership for Ukraine

“could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene.”

US gov't knew NATO expansion to Ukraine would force Russia to intervene - Geopolitical Economy Report

US Ambassador William Burns, now CIA director, admitted in 2008 embassy cable that NATO expansion to Ukraine crosses Russia's security "redlines" and could lead to violence which would force Moscow to intervene.

multipolarista.com

How prophetic was that?

We don't need to dig up Kennan seeing as he wrote about this before he died. In a 1997 NYT opinion piece he stated the following............

The view, bluntly stated, is that expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.
Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking. And, last but not least, it might make it much more difficult, if not impossible, to secure the Russian Duma's ratification of the Start II agreement and to achieve further reductions of nuclear weaponry.

It is, of course, unfortunate that Russia should be confronted with such a challenge at a time when its executive power is in a state of high uncertainty and near-paralysis. And it is doubly unfortunate considering the total lack of any necessity for this move. Why, with all the hopeful possibilities engendered by the end of the cold war, should East-West relations become centered on the question of who would be allied with whom and, by implication, against whom in some fanciful, totally unforeseeable and most improbable future military conflict?

Opinion | A Fateful Error (Published 1997)

George F Kennan Op-Ed article contends that expanding NATO would be 'most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era;' maintains that such decision would inflame nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion and have adverse effect on...

www.nytimes.com

The warnings have been going on since the 90's and people are only now thinking they are worthy of debate but only to dismiss it as " Putin propaganda"

It's hilarious to see you objecting to being " pigeon holed" as you continue to ignore the views expressed by others so as to accuse them of being Putin propaganists, apendage suckers etc etc

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Opinion | A Fateful Error (Published 1997)

George F Kennan Op-Ed article contends that expanding NATO would be 'most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era;' maintains that such decision would inflame nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion and have adverse effect on...

www.nytimes.com

The warnings have been going on since the 90's and people are only now thinking they are worthy of debate but only to dismiss it as " Putin propaganda"

It's hilarious to see you objecting to being " pigeon holed" as you continue to ignore the views expressed by others so as to accuse them of being Putin propaganists, apendage suckers etc etc

Garry Kasparov
@Kasparov63
·
1h

The West wanted to ignore Putin without taking any risks, sacrificing Crimea & E Ukraine to slow him down a little. Now Ukraine is paying the price for their cowardice in blood. And yet they seem ready to do it again.




https://twitter.com/Kasparov63

PS: Ukraine isn't NATO, but now, at this point, if victorious, Ukraine NATO membership will be a certainty.
Putin would have been smarter to have just left with Crimea and leaving it at that.
You're just siding with Putin, let's leave it at that, because you can't deny it.

 

[oneworld2]

Garry Kasparov
@Kasparov63
·
1h

The West wanted to ignore Putin without taking any risks, sacrificing Crimea & E Ukraine to slow him down a little. Now Ukraine is paying the price for their cowardice in blood. And yet they seem ready to do it again.




https://twitter.com/Kasparov63

PS: Ukraine isn't NATO, but now, at this point, if victorious, Ukraine NATO membership will be a certainty.
Putin would have been smarter to have just left with Crimea and leaving it at that.
You're just siding with Putin, let's leave it at that, because you can't deny it.

You asked about Burns and Kennan and I supplied ,so what do you do? Ignore the truth. lols

Have someone else make an argument for you? Still , hypocritically , call people Putin siders because they disagree with you and can back their claims ?

He couldn't leave it at Crimea but you don't understand why because it's not in the MSM hysteria and left on your own without that, you struggle

I will guarantee you Ukraine will never be in NATO save for the collapse of the Russian state itself but a possible nuclear holocaust might precede that so............

Eitherway thx for a terrible response again

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You asked about Burns and Kennan and I supplied ,so what do you do? Ignore the truth. lols

So long as "ignoring the truth" consists of pointing out the gaping problems with Kennan, which it doesn't.
Stop whining.

And I didn't say Ukraine was NATO, and Zelenskyy is now hanging up that idea, for now...but Putin is now locked in on his chosen path, namely
bombing Ukraine into oblivion, and continuing to spread bullshit about Ukrainiane being run by Nazis.
I said Ukraine is a democracy.

I just want you to know this is, like, the first conversation of, like, three conversations that leads to you being a Putin guy.
Like, there's this, and then in a year it's like, "Oh, you know, I'm kinda gonna want to get back out there, but I think I like Putin"
and then there's the big, "Oh, I'm... I'm... I'm a Putin guy now."

 

[oneworld2]

So long as "ignoring the truth" consists of pointing out the gaping problems with Kennan, which it doesn't.
Stop whining.

FWIR you questioned the veracity of what I said about both Burns and Kennan and I provided the proof for it. Having been faced with that you then decide to go on a moral rant about Kennan which is ok but out of context

And I didn't say Ukraine was NATO, and Zelenskyy is now hanging up that idea, for now...but Putin is now locked in on his chosen path, namely
bombing Ukraine into oblivion, and continuing to spread bullshit about Ukrainiane being run by Nazis.
I said Ukraine is a democracy.

I just want you to know this is, like, the first conversation of, like, three conversations that leads to you being a Putin guy.
Like, there's this, and then in a year it's like, "Oh, you know, I'm kinda gonna want to get back out there, but I think I like Putin"
and then there's the big, "Oh, I'm... I'm... I'm a Putin guy now."

View attachment 67379739

Elephant talk

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

FWIR you questioned the veracity of what I said about both Burns and Kennan and I provided the proof for it. Having been faced with that you then decide to go on a moral rant about Kennan which is ok but out of context


Elephant talk

I didn't question the veracity of what they said, I question your admiration for a couple of Putin sympathizing idiots, one of which might as well have a Klan hood.
If you're going to try to feed me back what I am saying, at least get it right.
I'm sure they indeed said every word, I'm also sure they're morons.

Klan man Kennan is responsible for formulating the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government.
That fits nicely with your pro-Putin fascism.

 

[oneworld2]

I didn't question the veracity of what they said, I question your admiration for a couple of Putin sympathizing idiots, one of which might as well have a Klan hood.
If you're going to try to feed me back what I am saying, at least get it right.
I'm sure they indeed said every word, I'm also sure they're morons.

Klan man Kennan is responsible for formulating the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government.
That fits nicely with your pro-Putin fascism.

You actually fed junk and were lucky to even get a response


So the current head of the CIA is now a " Putin sympathizing idiot"? Even though he predicted this day with remarkable accuracy way back in 2008 ? That accurate and yet he is a" Putin sympathizing idoit" as well as a " moron"

Kennan who made his comments BEFORE anyone had heard of Putin is a " Putin sympathizing idiot" ?

lols

That you can write " pro Putin" apologetics before Putin was even known to anyone outside of Russia/KGB/East German circles is a power even I never knew he had

Amazing!!!

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You actually fed junk and were lucky to even get a response


So the current head of the CIA is now a " Putin sympathizing idiot"? Even though he predicted this day with remarkable accuracy way back in 2008 ? That accurate and yet he is a" Putin sympathizing idoit" as well as a " moron"

Kennan who made his comments BEFORE anyone had heard of Putin is a " Putin sympathizing idiot" ?

lols

That you can write " pro Putin" apologetics before Putin was even known to anyone outside of Russia/KGB/East German circles is a power even I never knew he had

Amazing!!!

Current CIA head is a Putin sympathizing idiot by way of his pessimistic weak sauce denialism about Putin's long term plans.
By the way, where do you get off insisting that "no one knew about Putin outside of Russia"?

Eyes on Putin since before decades, my friend.
The Kursk submarine disaster put Putin in the international spotlight.
Few Russians have forgiven him for the extraordinarily flippant remark he made when he finally gave his assessment of what had happened to the Russian navy's $1bn flagship. Sun-tanned and relaxed, he smiled and said: "It sank."
And his silence over statements that the accident had been caused by a serious collision with a NATO submarine, made by Fleet Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov, put Vladimir Putin squarely in the sights of every
inch of the US military intelligence community.
But particular attention was paid to his very first remarks in 1999, in which he described communism as "a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilization".

Look, I recognize that there's no way you're ever going to change your adoration of the Russian president.
I'm content to just watch your comments as they age over the course of the coming world war.

 

[RetiredUSN]

John Meirsheimer is a professor at Chicago university and an expert on international politics.

He lays out how and why NATO expansion eastward was a ongoing concern for the Russians and that they " swallowed" the first two influxes of the eastern bloc countries into NATO but that after the 2008 Bucharest NATO summit which stated that both Ukraine and Georgia would be future members of NATO Russia said nope.

He outlines the history of NATO expansion and focuses on how that 2008 decision saw Ukraine being used as a " bulwark" by NATO against Russia. It's only from last month so it right up to date.

Talk starts at around 1 min 48 into the vid

Sovereign nations make their own decisions.

They look to Russia and see a shit economy and a dictator.......................... and they look to the West and see prosperity and security.

How much did Putin pay you for this thread?

 

[oneworld2]

Current CIA head is a Putin sympathizing idiot by way of his pessimistic weak sauce denialism about Putin's long term plans.
By the way, where do you get off insisting that "no one knew about Putin outside of Russia"?

Eyes on Putin since before decades, my friend.
The Kursk submarine disaster put Putin in the international spotlight.
Few Russians have forgiven him for the extraordinarily flippant remark he made when he finally gave his assessment of what had happened to the Russian navy's $1bn flagship. Sun-tanned and relaxed, he smiled and said: "It sank."
And his silence over statements that the accident had been caused by a serious collision with a NATO submarine, made by Fleet Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov, put Vladimir Putin squarely in the sights of every
inch of the US military intelligence community.
But particular attention was paid to his very first remarks in 1999, in which he described communism as "a blind alley, far away from the mainstream of civilization".

Look, I recognize that there's no way you're ever going to change your adoration of the Russian president.
I'm content to just watch your comments as they age over the course of the coming world war.

You like to put up stugg and delude yourself that it refutes that which it is aimed at when it doesn't.

I highlighted some of them in the above

" Few Russians" is not a refutation to what I said, it's an endorsement of it lols

So he was known to?............."US military intelligence" wow, that's everyone I suppose?

The comment was aimed at the world public, nobody outside of his region of operations and international military intelligence agencies knew of him until he became leade of Russia. This is so obvious and yet you try to male out that this is somehow wrong by citing the above nonsense. It's a feature of your dishonest posting style as is your childish penchant for name calling after your complaining about beinbg ptgeon holed yourself lols

You should come clean and admit that everybody and anyone who doesn't subscribe to your view or is able to consider things in a broader context is some sort of Putin agent, even people who made their comments long before Putin was even on the scene !!

Your posts are just complete junk and show a paranoia that is consistent with a mania. Not being able to admit that you are actually wrong about these people, even to the extent that you reject chronological orders, and doubling down on the the stupid accusations anyway is ridiculous. But that's what you prefer to do.

 

[oneworld2]

Sovereign nations make their own decisions.

Correct to a degree and in theory but not in the real world on every occasion.

For example you support/supported

Cuba having nuclear missiles on its soil

Iran having a nuclear weapons programme

Iraq having a WMD programme

They look to Russia and see a shit economy and a dictator.......................... and they look to the West and see prosperity and security.

How much did Putin pay you for this thread?

In the real world the powerful do what they like and the weak suffer what they must, it's not a moral judgement call, it;s the world reality. The US has probably outstripped every country on earth in its internal meddling of their state decision making of other countries with endless coups and wars, proxy wars, economic warfare , sanctions, aid witdrawals, world bank and IMF monopoly etc etc

I can rest asured that nobody will be paying you for your analysis

 

[RetiredUSN]

Correct to a degree and in theory but not in the real world on every occasion.

For example you support/supported

Cuba having nuclear missiles on its soil

Iran having a nuclear weapons programme

Iraq having a WMD programme



In the real world the powerful do what they like and the weak suffer what they must, it's not a moral judgement call, it;s the world reality. The US has probably outstripped every country on earth in its internal meddling of their state decision making of other countries with endless coups and wars, proxy wars, economic warfare , sanctions, aid witdrawals, world bank and IMF monopoly etc etc

I can rest asured that nobody will be paying you for your analysis

Putie has a bottle of Vodka waiting on you.