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John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' .....

SocialD

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John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' as aircraft's development stretches into its 15th year - costing the Pentagon nearly $400 BILLION

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's record on cost, schedule and performance has been a scandal and a tragedy, Senator John McCain told senior Pentagon officials on Tuesday.

McCain, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, issued his withering critique of the most expensive weapons program in U.S. military history during the latest oversight hearing.

He said the aircraft's development schedule has stretched to 15 years, deliveries of the F-35 have been delayed, and costs have skyrocketed.

'It's been a scandal and the cost overruns have been disgraceful,' McCain said.

'And it's a textbook example of why this Committee has placed such a high priority on reforming the broken defense acquisition system.'

John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' | Daily Mail Online



So my angle on this is.. this is a 15 year old project... there are a plethora of articles about how these (F-35s) are overpriced and underperforming. some links below and there are many more.

Pentagon ‘dumbs down’ aviation tests for underperforming F-35
https://www.rt.com/usa/stealth-fighter-test-pentagon-027/

Test Pilot: The F-35 Can't Dogfight Worth a Damn
Test Pilot: The F-35 Can't Dogfight Worth a Damn

New report claims F-35 outclassed by 40 year-old F-16, government disagrees
New report claims F-35 outclassed by 40 year-old F-16, government disagrees | ExtremeTech

So my deal is why is McCain grandstanding about it now I mean its not like he is new to being on the armed svcs comittee.... but then I look and see oh he is up for re-election in November.
So -now- its time to be the fiscal responsible I guess... the more things change the more they stay the same.
 

reinoe

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' as aircraft's development stretches into its 15th year - costing the Pentagon nearly $400 BILLION

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's record on cost, schedule and performance has been a scandal and a tragedy, Senator John McCain told senior Pentagon officials on Tuesday.

McCain, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, issued his withering critique of the most expensive weapons program in U.S. military history during the latest oversight hearing.

He said the aircraft's development schedule has stretched to 15 years, deliveries of the F-35 have been delayed, and costs have skyrocketed.

'It's been a scandal and the cost overruns have been disgraceful,' McCain said.

'And it's a textbook example of why this Committee has placed such a high priority on reforming the broken defense acquisition system.'

John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' | Daily Mail Online



So my angle on this is.. this is a 15 year old project... there are a plethora of articles about how these (F-35s) are overpriced and underperforming. some links below and there are many more.

Pentagon ‘dumbs down’ aviation tests for underperforming F-35
https://www.rt.com/usa/stealth-fighter-test-pentagon-027/

Test Pilot: The F-35 Can't Dogfight Worth a Damn
Test Pilot: The F-35 Can't Dogfight Worth a Damn

New report claims F-35 outclassed by 40 year-old F-16, government disagrees
New report claims F-35 outclassed by 40 year-old F-16, government disagrees | ExtremeTech

So my deal is why is McCain grandstanding about it now I mean its not like he is new to being on the armed svcs comittee.... but then I look and see oh he is up for re-election in November.
So -now- its time to be the fiscal responsible I guess... the more things change the more they stay the same.
Yeah, John McCain is the fakest faker that ever faked. He's known that the F-35 program was a boondoggle for at least a decade. Heck, he's been the Senate military committee chair or minority leader for something like 25 years. He probably authorized the program in the first place. He's such a disgusting tool.
 

SocialD

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

Yeah, John McCain is the fakest faker that ever faked. He's known that the F-35 program was a boondoggle for at least a decade. Heck, he's been the Senate military committee chair or minority leader for something like 25 years. He probably authorized the program in the first place. He's such a disgusting tool.

Yea he was on the Commerce Committee up until 2001 and wrangled his way onto the Armed Svcs Committee I believe after his failed 2000 presidential run.
 

OrphanSlug

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

McCain is part of the problem, but in this case he is right. Probably by accident. The entire F-35 project is a lesson in corruption, massive cost overruns, and amazingly terrible management. By the time we get all of the planes we ordered they will be out of date against the development efforts of Russia (and others.)
 

SocialD

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

McCain is part of the problem, but in this case he is right. Probably by accident. The entire F-35 project is a lesson in corruption, massive cost overruns, and amazingly terrible management. By the time we get all of the planes we ordered they will be out of date against the development efforts of Russia (and others.)

I concur. he is right. I was just mentioning that he could have brought this up years ago. its no new bit of knowledge that the F-35 is ,as mentioned, overpriced and underperforming. And he has been in the position to say so for a number of years.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

It is not just the out of control costs, it is about complete mismanagement of the procurement, this is about decades of poor decision making at the Pentagon and the fact that we need new planes yesterday because what we have is chewed up and outclassed by what our enemies are building and in some cases already using. Heard last week that China will be able to kick out aviation ass in the China Sea with-in 5 years based upon current trends.

This is NOT what the establishment wants to talk about as Trump is looking for votes to come burn Washington to the ground. Because it does not work. Because the people who run it tend to be lying incompetents who have as a major plank in their agenda to micromanage the lives of the little people.

Trump has got to be one of the luckiest SOB's around.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' as aircraft's development stretches into its 15th year - costing the Pentagon nearly $400 BILLION

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's record on cost, schedule and performance has been a scandal and a tragedy, Senator John McCain told senior Pentagon officials on Tuesday.

McCain, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, issued his withering critique of the most expensive weapons program in U.S. military history during the latest oversight hearing.

He said the aircraft's development schedule has stretched to 15 years, deliveries of the F-35 have been delayed, and costs have skyrocketed.

'It's been a scandal and the cost overruns have been disgraceful,' McCain said.

'And it's a textbook example of why this Committee has placed such a high priority on reforming the broken defense acquisition system.'

John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' | Daily Mail Online



So my angle on this is.. this is a 15 year old project... there are a plethora of articles about how these (F-35s) are overpriced and underperforming. some links below and there are many more.

Pentagon ‘dumbs down’ aviation tests for underperforming F-35
https://www.rt.com/usa/stealth-fighter-test-pentagon-027/

Test Pilot: The F-35 Can't Dogfight Worth a Damn
Test Pilot: The F-35 Can't Dogfight Worth a Damn

New report claims F-35 outclassed by 40 year-old F-16, government disagrees
New report claims F-35 outclassed by 40 year-old F-16, government disagrees | ExtremeTech

So my deal is why is McCain grandstanding about it now I mean its not like he is new to being on the armed svcs comittee.... but then I look and see oh he is up for re-election in November.
So -now- its time to be the fiscal responsible I guess... the more things change the more they stay the same.

So Lockheed Martin made 400 Billion dollars from the program? I'd say from their perspective that this was a resounding success.
 

Hawkeye10

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

So Lockheed Martin made 400 Billion dollars from the program? I'd say from their perspective that this was a resounding success.

I do believe that if you check their accounting they have not made a dime yet, they will get out of the hole 2018 think I heard.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

The F-35 does more or less what it was originally supposed to do. The mass media are always staggeringly inept when it comes to judging military equipment - they are simply clueless. Don't get me wrong, the F-35 has had problems, but considering the gigantic nature of the project and the fact that one airframe is being asked to do three very different jobs, the plane is not doing too badly.

The problem - as I see it - is that the F-35 is a weapons system that was originally thought of just after the Cold War. It was designed to replace the F-16 for the Air Force, the F/A-18 for the Navy and the Harrier for the Marines. The last time the armed forces tried to do something like this was in the sixties with the F-111. And that was a mini-disaster as the plane quickly became WAAY over budget and too heavy and it ended up being just a long range strike bomber for the air force. But the F-4 ended up working for all the services - though they all had broadly similar needs back then and the F-4 was an exceptional plane.
My point is that the rapid pace of military technological evolution that occurred during the Cold War came to a near stop once the 'war' ended. So much so that F-16's are still extremely effective aircraft for the task asked of them. The same with the F/A-18.
Sure, they are not state of the art - but they were never supposed to be. They were supposed to be second best, less expensive alternatives to their larger, higher tech counterparts. Their big brothers (F-15's, F-14's) were supposed to be the air superiority fighters that cleared the skies for the F-16 / F/A-18 fighter-bombers to go in afterwards.
The F-35 is a different animal. It still cannot match the F-22, but they are stealthy and far more advanced then they need to be for today's potential targets. Stealth is still expensive and is totally redundant against crude foes like ISIL who do not even have radar guided missiles (which is what stealth is designed for as they are almost useless against heat seeking missiles or low level AA guns).
The point is they are WAY overpriced for what they are for.
The Navy could use a better version of the F/A-18E/F/G (since the F-14 is long retired)...but for who they go up against, the plane is perfectly fine (plus, the Navy do not like single engined combat aircraft which the F-35 is). The F-16 is the same and it has the F-22 to clear the skies for them. The only service, imo, that really needs the F-35 are the Marines whose Harriers were never amazing (being susceptible to heat seeking missiles because of their exhaust nozzle placement) and are quite long in the tooth.
Additionally, being the three planes are all different, the costs are rising FAST. And - other then the Marines - the planes are not necessary. Especially during a time of huge fiscal deficits and a stagnant economy with no high tech adversaries. And the costs will only climb. Plus, if the armed forces do cut back on total procurement - and I guarantee you they will (just like they did with the F-22 and the B-2) - this will cause the development costs to be spread out over fewer airframes and skyrocket the cost per plane even more (just like what happened to the F-22 and B-2 costs per plane).

I say end the F-35 Air Force and Navy procurements and just build the F-35B for the Marines.

And then design and build a twin engined, higher tech, air superiority fighter for the Navy that is the equal of the F-22 to be used as the F-14 was. But don't go overboard with it. Use existing technology (with an eye on innovation) and built it with as many off-the-shelf parts as possible (i.e. the F-22). This can be a stop gap for the next 20 years or so and save the armed forces trillions of dollars.
Or forget that and use what is available now and develop a next generation aircraft of an entirely original design.

But what ever they do - I think they should a) try and force one aircraft onto the Air Force, Navy and Marines; and b) forget the Cold War...it is over. Gigantic numbers of weapons are no longer needed. I think the emphasis should be on relatively small numbers of very advanced weapons systems.
And go in to the projects with that attitude so the manufacturers can take that into account when they design replies to the Pentagon requests.
 
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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

The DoD is probably is probably the most WASTEFUL department is the world, let alone in the US. And it's what pisses me off about so called 'fiscal conservative' Republicans. They go on and on about cutting taxes, spending, debt, etc. but the only spending cuts they want is to social programs they don't like. PP, Dept. of Ed., etc.

But when it comes to the MIC, and DoD, it' spend, spend, and spend and waste more. In 2012 Romney wanted to UP the DoD budget $200 bil each year!!! yeah so we can waste $400 bil on boondoggles like this.

I'm NOT just blaming the GOP for this waste and the MIC, the Dems are the blame too. I just get tired of the fiscal cons who want to cut, except they never want to cut from the most wasteful Dept. in history, the DoD.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

The DoD is probably is probably the most WASTEFUL department is the world, let alone in the US. And it's what pisses me off about so called 'fiscal conservative' Republicans. They go on and on about cutting taxes, spending, debt, etc. but the only spending cuts they want is to social programs they don't like. PP, Dept. of Ed., etc.

But when it comes to the MIC, and DoD, it' spend, spend, and spend and waste more. In 2012 Romney wanted to UP the DoD budget $200 bil each year!!! yeah so we can waste $400 bil on boondoggles like this.

I'm NOT just blaming the GOP for this waste and the MIC, the Dems are the blame too. I just get tired of the fiscal cons who want to cut, except they never want to cut from the most wasteful Dept. in history, the DoD.

Waste and redundancy needs to be reigned in in ALL branches of government. ;)
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

Waste and redundancy needs to be reigned in in ALL branches of government. ;)

Oh I 110% agree. But I think most will agree in the DoD it's way, waaaaay out of hand. And has been for decades. They basically have a blank check.

I have no problem with us having the strongest, best military in the world. By far. But the mismanagement and the mentality that the DoD can get whatever it wants, at any price and any amount of blank checks needs to stop.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

Oh I 110% agree. But I think most will agree in the DoD it's way, waaaaay out of hand. And has been for decades. They basically have a blank check.

I have no problem with us having the strongest, best military in the world. By far. But the mismanagement and the mentality that the DoD can get whatever it wants, at any price and any amount of blank checks needs to stop.

I agree. If we could actually cut out the waste, fraud, and abuse, the DoD would have billions more to spend on, oh I don't know, defense and stuff, without increasing their budget one dime.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

I agree. If we could actually cut out the waste, fraud, and abuse, the DoD would have billions more to spend on, oh I don't know, defense and stuff, without increasing their budget one dime.

Or they should write their contracts smarter.

let us have the quote and the price and the time frame.
if you run over budget that is your issue.

a lot of these over run's are simply companies drawing out more money than they should
to keep their people busy.

I have seen it all the time. so the job starts here and will take 4 years.
well when you get to year 3 it should be close to finishing. however your next project doesn't start
till year 6. so you need at least a 2 year delay on the current project.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

Or they should write their contracts smarter.

let us have the quote and the price and the time frame.
if you run over budget that is your issue.

a lot of these over run's are simply companies drawing out more money than they should
to keep their people busy.

I have seen it all the time. so the job starts here and will take 4 years.
well when you get to year 3 it should be close to finishing. however your next project doesn't start
till year 6. so you need at least a 2 year delay on the current project.

A "smarter contract" doesn't eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse. This needs to stop, period.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

A "smarter contract" doesn't eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse. This needs to stop, period.

if there are financial penalties to the vendor for not delivering on time or within the scope of the project then yes.
a review of said project and the government can claim up to 75% of the money spent back from the company.

you would see projects done on time and under budget.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

if there are financial penalties to the vendor for not delivering on time or within the scope of the project then yes.
a review of said project and the government can claim up to 75% of the money spent back from the company.

you would see projects done on time and under budget.

And how much wasteful spending is contained within these "budgets".
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

And how much wasteful spending is contained within these "budgets".

that is what I am saying if the budget is 200b dollars. and the company goes over they are eating it themselves after 200b.
that would eliminate a ton of waste right there.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

that is what I am saying if the budget is 200b dollars. and the company goes over they are eating it themselves after 200b.
that would eliminate a ton of waste right there.

Right, because of course they would never pad the budget to compensate. Right?
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

The F-35 does more or less what it was originally supposed to do. The mass media are always staggeringly inept when it comes to judging military equipment - they are simply clueless. Don't get me wrong, the F-35 has had problems, but considering the gigantic nature of the project and the fact that one airframe is being asked to do three very different jobs, the plane is not doing too badly.

The problem - as I see it - is that the F-35 is a weapons system that was originally thought of just after the Cold War. It was designed to replace the F-16 for the Air Force, the F/A-18 for the Navy and the Harrier for the Marines. The last time the armed forces tried to do something like this was in the sixties with the F-111. And that was a mini-disaster as the plane quickly became WAAY over budget and too heavy and it ended up being just a long range strike bomber for the air force. But the F-4 ended up working for all the services - though they all had broadly similar needs back then and the F-4 was an exceptional plane.
My point is that the rapid pace of military technological evolution that occurred during the Cold War came to a near stop once the 'war' ended. So much so that F-16's are still extremely effective aircraft for the task asked of them. The same with the F/A-18.
Sure, they are not state of the art - but they were never supposed to be. They were supposed to be second best, less expensive alternatives to their larger, higher tech counterparts. Their big brothers (F-15's, F-14's) were supposed to be the air superiority fighters that cleared the skies for the F-16 / F/A-18 fighter-bombers to go in afterwards.
The F-35 is a different animal. It still cannot match the F-22, but they are stealthy and far more advanced then they need to be for today's potential targets. Stealth is still expensive and is totally redundant against crude foes like ISIL who do not even have radar guided missiles (which is what stealth is designed for as they are almost useless against heat seeking missiles or low level AA guns).
The point is they are WAY overpriced for what they are for.
The Navy could use a better version of the F/A-18E/F/G (since the F-14 is long retired)...but for who they go up against, the plane is perfectly fine (plus, the Navy do not like single engined combat aircraft which the F-35 is). The F-16 is the same and it has the F-22 to clear the skies for them. The only service, imo, that really needs the F-35 are the Marines whose Harriers were never amazing (being susceptible to heat seeking missiles because of their exhaust nozzle placement) and are quite long in the tooth.
Additionally, being the three planes are all different, the costs are rising FAST. And - other then the Marines - the planes are not necessary. Especially during a time of huge fiscal deficits and a stagnant economy with no high tech adversaries. And the costs will only climb. Plus, if the armed forces do cut back on total procurement - and I guarantee you they will (just like they did with the F-22 and the B-2) - this will cause the development costs to be spread out over fewer airframes and skyrocket the cost per plane even more (just like what happened to the F-22 and B-2 costs per plane).

I say end the F-35 Air Force and Navy procurements and just build the F-35B for the Marines.

And then design and build a twin engined, higher tech, air superiority fighter for the Navy that is the equal of the F-22 to be used as the F-14 was. But don't go overboard with it. Use existing technology (with an eye on innovation) and built it with as many off-the-shelf parts as possible (i.e. the F-22). This can be a stop gap for the next 20 years or so and save the armed forces trillions of dollars.
Or forget that and use what is available now and develop a next generation aircraft of an entirely original design.

But what ever they do - I think they should a) try and force one aircraft onto the Air Force, Navy and Marines; and b) forget the Cold War...it is over. Gigantic numbers of weapons are no longer needed. I think the emphasis should be on relatively small numbers of very advanced weapons systems.
And go in to the projects with that attitude so the manufacturers can take that into account when they design replies to the Pentagon requests.

The articles I provided were not 'mass media'. quote from test pilot. internal report from Lockheed Martin etc..
In the modern military you just really cant have a jack of all trades aircraft like that unless you actually want something that is mediocre at everything but good at perhaps nothing.
And certainly not spend 400billion on it... my guess is it will actually cost even more than that by the time its all done.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

The GOP treats the military budget like a sacred cow. Trump has made it very clear he cares about our VETERANS, not our unnecessary wars that get them hurt in the first place.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

Waste and redundancy needs to be reigned in in ALL branches of government. ;)

Yup

The DoD has the largest budget, but the GOP wont touch it, courtesy of Reagans out of control DoD budgets, it's now the norm, with both parties. Hell, in the early 1980's the DoD could not spend all the cash which Congress and the Pres were giving them. There was an attempt in the 1990's with the BRAC program, but it didn't seem to shrink the military budget a whole lot. I guess they would rather buy a few more guns while cutting Social Security, no problem with our elderly having to eat 9 lives cat food, it's good enough for Morris, it's good enough for Grandma.
 

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Re: John McCain slams F-35 striker jet project as 'a scandal' and 'disgraceful' ....

The GOP treats the military budget like a sacred cow. Trump has made it very clear he cares about our VETERANS, not our unnecessary wars that get them hurt in the first place.

We will be paying for the last 2 wars for quite some time. with all the men and woman who are broke, disabled, and need not only medical benefits but unable to work because of there injuries, we will be paying for those wars for next 50 years in VA benefits. Yet we keep sending our countries most valuable assets to fight wars which to be honest, we can not afford. If politicians want to wage war, they best have a plan to pay for them, though no politician will raise taxes in an election, and there is always an election. Partial solution, TERM limits for CONGRESS!!
 
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