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John Kerry likens U.S. Soldiers to terrorists.

Navy Pride

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26 X World Champs said:
So you're therefore OK with people posting lies about her and writing:

that lying traitor skank bitch
?

Post the truth, isn't that enough? Making up stuff is the lamest form of debating and completely discounts any truthful statments someone might make.


What did I make up?:confused:
 

26 X World Champs

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Navy Pride said:
Hoot, come on man, you know Kerry said those things....The links have been posted over and over again.....
How come you never post links to the stuff that you post and you ignore any post that challenges you to prove yourself yet you do defend someone who doesn't post proof?

It's amazing! You won't respond to anyone who poiints out your enormous mistakes in your posts (through proof) yet you do respond to someone who asks for proof by saying: The links have been posted over and over again.!

Truth is tough to disprove when backed by links, but liars always use the The links have been posted over and over again. cop-out cut and run excuse all the time.

I would like to see proof for the things that Kerry is being accused of, I've never seen the links you purport and I've been here quite awhile...so how about it?
 

Hoot

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Navy Pride said:
Hoot, come on man, you know Kerry said those things....The links have been posted over and over again.....

This is old news, Navy Pride, so I don't really care, but I certainly don't remember any link where kerry says he helped burn down villages, which is what easyt65 states in his post?

I think he's afraid to state where he got this info.
 

oldreliable67

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You want a link to the Fonda stories? Well, here ya go.

This site confirms the authenticity of some stories and debunks others. The story about her meeting a group of POWs and them giving her pieces of paper that she turned over to the NVA is debunked. Most of the rest are affirmed.

Hanoi Jane. What a gal! Not.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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26 X World Champs said:
How come you never post links to the stuff that you post and you ignore any post that challenges you to prove yourself yet you do defend someone who doesn't post proof?

It's amazing! You won't respond to anyone who poiints out your enormous mistakes in your posts (through proof) yet you do respond to someone who asks for proof by saying: The links have been posted over and over again.!

Truth is tough to disprove when backed by links, but liars always use the The links have been posted over and over again. cop-out cut and run excuse all the time.

I would like to see proof for the things that Kerry is being accused of, I've never seen the links you purport and I've been here quite awhile...so how about it?


SCHIEFFER: All right. Let me shift to another point of view, and it comes from another Democrat, Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut. He takes a very different view. He says basically we should stay the course because, he says, real progress is being made. He said this is a war between 27 million Iraqis who want freedom and 10,000 terrorists. He says we're in a watershed transformation. What about that?

Sen. KERRY: Let me--I--first of all, there is so much more that unites Democrats than divides us. And Democrats have much more in common with each other than they do with George Bush's policy right now. Now Joe Lieberman, I believe, also voted for the resolution which said the president needs to make more clear what he's doing and set out benchmarks, and that the policy hasn't been working. We all believe him when you say, `Stay the course.' That's the president's policy, which hasn't been changing, which is a policy of failure. I don't agree with that. But I think what we need to do is recognize what we all agree on, which is you've got to begin to set benchmarks for accomplishment. You've got to begin to transfer authority to the Iraqis. And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs, religious customs. Whether you like it or not...

SCHIEFFER: Yeah.

Sen. KERRY: ...Iraqis should be doing that. And after all of these two and a half years, with all of the talk of 210,000 people trained, there just is no excuse for not transferring more of that authority.

SCHIEFFER: Well, you're not saying we should stop fighting these insurgents?

Sen. KERRY: Absolutely not. In fact, in my plan, I have said very specifically that we need to keep Special Forces capacity. We need to have the ability to go after hard intelligence. We need to chase down Zarqawi. But we do not need 160,000 troops running around the country as a whole, exposing themselves as they are, feeding the notion of occupation. Let me just emphasize this.

And here's a link to where you can get a full transcript of that episode of face the nation that Kerry appeared on:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/11/ftn/main1115870.shtml

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

and here's a link to the full transcript of that testimony that he gave to the Senate Committee:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3875422

There you have it unbiased sources and Kerry's exact words, are you still going to deny it?
 
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Navy Pride

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Hoot said:
This is old news, Navy Pride, so I don't really care, but I certainly don't remember any link where kerry says he helped burn down villages, which is what easyt65 states in his post?

I think he's afraid to state where he got this info.

Its been posted over and over again that Kerry under oath to a congressional committe in 1971 said he participated in burning villages and firing in free fire zones...........Now its one of 2 things........If he actually did that then he is a war criminal and should have been brought up on charges.........If he didn't do them then he perjured himself..........
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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26 X World Champs said:
Unbelievable! Surely you're not going to be another basher who never proves anything that you post, are you? In a debate it is up to the person posting "facts" to prove them, not for someone else to try to not find them?

Your post is pure BS unless you can prove it through a creditable source, period. Otherwise your posts are simply propaganda and lies. Prove what you claim or facts or expect to have no one believe your posts, that's how it works around here.

I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh's points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned.

I think this negates very clearly the argument of the President that we have to maintain a presence in Vietnam, to use as a negotiating block for the return of those prisoners. The setting of a date will accomplish that.

-- John Kerry, testifying before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, April 22, 1971


Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

-- U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments

MR. RUSSERT: You mentioned you're a military guy. There's been a lot of discussion about Bob Kerrey, your former Democratic colleague in the Senate, about his talking about his anguish about what happened in Vietnam . You were on this program 30 years ago as a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And we went back and have an audiotape of that and some still photos. And your comments are particularly timely in this overall discussion of Bob Kerrey. And I'd like for you to listen to those with our audience and then try to put that war into some context:

(Audiotape, April 18, 1971):

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
(End audiotape)

(umm if he participated in it then so is he)


MR. RUSSERT: Thirty years later, you stand by that?

SEN. KERRY: I don't stand by the genocide. I think those were the words of an angry young man. We did not try to do that. But I do stand by the description--I don't even believe there is a purpose served in the word "war criminal." I really don't. But I stand by the rest of what happened over there, Tim.

I mean, you know, we--it was--I mean, we've got to put this war in its right perspective and time helps us do that. I believe very deeply that it was a noble effort to begin with. I signed up. I volunteered. I wanted to go over there and I wanted to win. It was a noble effort to try to make a country democratic; to try to carry our principles and values to another part of the world. But we misjudged history. We misjudged our own country. We misjudged our strategy. And we fell into a dark place. All of us. And I think we learned that over time. And I hope the contribution that some of us made as veterans was to come back and help people understand that.

I think our soldiers served as nobly, on the whole, as in any war, and people need to understand that. There were great sacrifices, great contributions. And they came back to a country that didn't thank the veteran, that didn't--I mean, everything that the veteran gained in the ensuing years, Agent Orange recognition, post-Vietnam stress syndrome recognition, the extension of the G.I. Bill, you know, improvement of the V.A. hospitals, all came from Vietnam veterans themselves fighting for it. Indeed, even the memorial in Washington came from that.

MR. RUSSERT: By your own comments, Bob Kerrey was not alone in doing the things that he did.

SEN. KERRY: Oh, of course, not. And not only that, we, the government of our country, ran an assassination program. I mean, Bill Colby has acknowledged it. We had the Phoenix Program, where they actually went into villages to eliminate the civilian infrastructure of the Vietcong. Now, you couldn't tell the difference in many cases who they were. And countless veterans testified 30 years ago to that reality. And I think--look, there's no excusing shooting children in cold blood, or women, and killing them in cold blood. There isn't, under any circumstances. But we're not asking, you know, nor is Bob Kerrey saying, "Excuse us for what we did." We're asking people to try to understand the context and forgiveness. And I think the nation needs to understand what the nation put its young in a position to do, and move on and take those lessons and apply them to the future.

MR. RUSSERT: The folks who oversaw the war, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, you do not now 30 years later consider them war criminals?

SEN. KERRY: No, I think we did things that were tantamount that certainly violated the laws of war, but I think it was the natural consequence of the Cold War itself. People made decisions based on their perceptions of the world at that time. They were in error. They were judgments of error. But I think no purpose is served now by going down that road. I think, you know, the rhetoric of youth and of anger can be redeemed by the acts that we put in place after time to try to move us beyond that. And I think there are great lessons to learn from it. But we would serve no purpose with that now. But we have to be honest about the mistakes we made. We don't have legitimacy in the world, Tim, if we go to other countries, in Bosnia or China or anywhere else, and not say, "You know, we made some terrible mistakes."

And that honesty, that lack of a sense of honesty is part of what is driving people's anger toward the United States today. That's why we have the vote in the U.N. That's why people--our allies, too--are disturbed by this defense posture. You can't abrogate the ABM treaty and move forward on your own to build this defense in a way that threatens the perceptions of security people have. And if you build a defense system, Tim, that can do what they say at the outside, which is change mutual assured destruction, you have invited a potential adversary to build, build, build, to find a way around it. The lesson of the Cold War is, you do not make this planet safer by moving unilaterally into a place of new weapons. Every single advance in weaponry through the Cold War was matched by one side or the other, and that's why we put the ABM treaty in place, and that's why we need to proceed very cautiously and very thoughtfully.

http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html

Here's a link to a real audio clip of John Kerry admitting to the attrocities that he commited so you can hear it for yourself:
http://209.245.59.100/Gimme/9489062...-4DF0-8F00-FEE9E3245F04/0.821764/3/Kerry2.mp3
 
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akyron

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Hoot said:
This is old news, Navy Pride, so I don't really care, but I certainly don't remember any link where kerry says he helped burn down villages, which is what easyt65 states in his post?

I think he's afraid to state where he got this info.


This is what he really said:

There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire.
John F. Kerry


The original transcript is from a Meet the Press appearance, on April 18, 1971 if you really feel like exploring it further. He said lots of crazy stuff.
 
H

hipsterdufus

Navy Pride said:
Its been posted over and over again that Kerry under oath to a congressional committe in 1971 said he participated in burning villages and firing in free fire zones...........Now its one of 2 things........If he actually did that then he is a war criminal and should have been brought up on charges.........If he didn't do them then he perjured himself..........

You - more than anyone should know about the fog of war. Do you want to go after every Vietnam Vet that committed these and other atrocities and prosecute them as war criminals?

Kerry was/is a hero to me for the eloquent way he stood up and spoke from his heart. A soldier is not a traitor if he doesn't believe in the cause.

We're seeing that now with Iraqi vets like Paul Hackett.

Yes, Kerry was a young man in his 20's at the time, and now he would testify in a way that would lull us all to a deep deep sleep :mrgreen:
 

Navy Pride

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hipsterdufus said:
You - more than anyone should know about the fog of war. Do you want to go after every Vietnam Vet that committed these and other atrocities and prosecute them as war criminals?

Kerry was/is a hero to me for the eloquent way he stood up and spoke from his heart. A soldier is not a traitor if he doesn't believe in the cause.

We're seeing that now with Iraqi vets like Paul Hackett.

Yes, Kerry was a young man in his 20's at the time, and now he would testify in a way that would lull us all to a deep deep sleep :mrgreen:

At least Hackett puts his cards on the table and we know his motives........

As I have said we had 500,000 people in nam at one time and of course there will be a few bad apples but you can't paint all 500,000 with the same brush like Kerry did............

Kerry is a war criminal by his own admission and his age has nothing to do with it............He continually opens his mouth and inserts his foot.....He did it during Viet Nam, during the elections, and is doing it now......

All I can say is you don't have very high standards for picking your heroes my friend.......I consider people like McCain my hero......
 

galenrox

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26 X World Champs said:
Couldn't help but notice that your propaganda post here has no link whatsoever? I also find it astonishing that you actually believe that we would believe that Jane Fonda said, according to you, these exact words:
"Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?"
I find it impossible to believe that she or any American would use the propaganda term "benevolent captors."

How come you can't simply post the truth? Why must you twist the truth so far that your posts are laughed at by all? :roll:
[mod mode]
:smash:
Alright, I apologize for the delayed reaction to this.

26 x World Champs, you're officially taking a vacation, 7 days.
You knew we weren't going to tolerate stuff like this much more, and yet you continued to do it. I don't know if you thought we were just joking or what, but anywho, you attempted to call our bluff just to find out we weren't bluffing. Your behavior is consistantly uncivil, and has been for some time.

Also, I would like to point out to you that I am not a conservative. This should dispell any notion you have that you are being targeted due to your politics and not your actions, and possibly make you understand what "unanimous" means.

So enjoy your break and we'll see you in a week. If this continues, you'll have to find some place else to spend your time, because next time I can assure you will be permanant.
[/mod mode]
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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galenrox said:
[mod mode]
:smash:
Alright, I apologize for the delayed reaction to this.

26 x World Champs, you're officially taking a vacation, 7 days.
You knew we weren't going to tolerate stuff like this much more, and yet you continued to do it. I don't know if you thought we were just joking or what, but anywho, you attempted to call our bluff just to find out we weren't bluffing. Your behavior is consistantly uncivil, and has been for some time.

Also, I would like to point out to you that I am not a conservative. This should dispell any notion you have that you are being targeted due to your politics and not your actions, and possibly make you understand what "unanimous" means.

So enjoy your break and we'll see you in a week. If this continues, you'll have to find some place else to spend your time, because next time I can assure you will be permanant.
[/mod mode]

You didn't need to suspend him I can take it as much as I can dish it out. In fact I rather enjoy it when I reduce my opponents to ad-hominen attacks against my credibility it's just proof positive that they have no real argument and are losing the debate.
 

Hoot

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I'm going on record as objecting to this dismissal. What exactly has 26x's said that is so awful?

This is why I left AOL. There were message board monitors that allowed those imaginery powers to go to their heads.

I'm sorry, but I see a double standard here.

Perhaps those of you who were elected monitors...(opps...you weren't elected, were you?) Perhaps some of you monitors need to take a step back and regain a bit more objectivity?
 

Iriemon

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Hoot said:
I'm going on record as objecting to this dismissal. What exactly has 26x's said that is so awful?

This is why I left AOL. There were message board monitors that allowed those imaginery powers to go to their heads.

I'm sorry, but I see a double standard here.

Perhaps those of you who were elected monitors...(opps...you weren't elected, were you?) Perhaps some of you monitors need to take a step back and regain a bit more objectivity?

Concur. .
 

Iriemon

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easyt65 said:
Kerry said he, himself, took part in the burning of villages.


Iriemon: In the Congressional testimony he reported on war crimes that others told him they did (cutting off ears, heads, rape, etc.). Kerry said he did not do these things.

No - in his testimony under oath, he stated that he WITNESSED these acts but later recanted!

I'll call you on that. Please show us the quote where Kerry said he WITNESSED acts of rape, cutting off ears, heads, etc.

You said it - I didn't...but as I said, I am not going to spoon-feed you! I have better things to do than keep proving things to liberals/people who are too lazy to look up things for themselves on the internet! The things I have posted are proven, reported facts. Just because you are ignorant to them doesn't mean I have to do the work for YOU to prove them to you. Take our head out of the chat room and from making comments based on your own opinion for a minute, and do a little research yourself. It just might change the way you feel about your UBER Patriot, Kerry. Then again.... I doubt it!

What is this, the new conservative debate tactic? Make assertions as to statements of a person, and then when asked for proof of the statement, either cut-n-run or make same lame statement about how you aren't going to look it up?

First Navy Pride -- we've come to expect it from him -- then Oldreliable, and now you.

Not an impressive debate tactic, IMO. Claim someone said something that you can't back up.

I note the conservatives are quick to demand the source whenever liberals make a statement. But they don't feel they have to follow their own rules, I guess.
 

Iriemon

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Navy Pride said:
All I can say is you don't have very high standards for picking your heroes my friend.......I consider people like McCain my hero......

What a joke.

How about your other hero, the President, whom you so admire for his brave Vietnam service of dodging combat by using his daddy's contacts to join the "Champagne unit" and cruised jets, partied, and politiced for his dad while less fortunate kids were drafted and sent to die.

You crucify a man who did his duty and faced combat in Vietman, didn't like what he saw, and did something about it. Your model of honor, Bush, dodged combat and spent his life partying until he decided leveraging his daddy's name in politics was an easier why to make a living.

Pathetic. If that is the standard for honor in the military, no wonder stuff like Abu Graib happens.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Iriemon said:
I'll call you on that. Please show us the quote where Kerry said he WITNESSED acts of rape, cutting off ears, heads, etc.



What is this, the new conservative debate tactic? Make assertions as to statements of a person, and then when asked for proof of the statement, either cut-n-run or make same lame statement about how you aren't going to look it up?
First Navy Pride -- we've come to expect it from him -- then Oldreliable, and now you.

Not an impressive debate tactic, IMO. Claim someone said something that you can't back up.

I note the conservatives are quick to demand the source whenever liberals make a statement. But they don't feel they have to follow their own rules, I guess.

Nope I'll show you his exact words, now can you defend this load of crap:

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. -- John Kerry, testifying before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, April 22, 1971

and here's a link to the full transcript of that testimony that he gave to the Senate Committee:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=3875422

Here's Kerry admitting to war crimes:

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
(End audiotape)

http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html

And here's Kerry admitting to treason:

I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh's points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned.

I think this negates very clearly the argument of the President that we have to maintain a presence in Vietnam, to use as a negotiating block for the return of those prisoners. The setting of a date will accomplish that.

-- John Kerry, testifying before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, April 22, 1971


Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

-- U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments
 
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aps

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Hoot said:
I'm going on record as objecting to this dismissal. What exactly has 26x's said that is so awful?

This is why I left AOL. There were message board monitors that allowed those imaginery powers to go to their heads.

I'm sorry, but I see a double standard here.

Perhaps those of you who were elected monitors...(opps...you weren't elected, were you?) Perhaps some of you monitors need to take a step back and regain a bit more objectivity?

Iriemon said:
Concur. .

I concur as well. Is it possible that there needs to be at least 2 moderators to temporarily and/or permanently ban someone? It is awfully subjective. This isn't criticism of the moderators. And I am not defending 26X just because I agree with everything he says. ;) Seriously, a conservative poster told me that he/she was being told that he/she needed to shape up. I have had battles with that person, and I never thought his/her posts were over the top. I didn't want the moderators thinking I defend only those from my party.

Peace.
 

Iriemon

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Nope I'll show you his exact words, now can you defend this load of crap:

First of all, thank you for actually posting quotes with sources. That is worthy of respect.

and here's a link to the full transcript of that testimony that he gave to the Senate Committee:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=3875422

Your link didn't work for me, so I used this one: http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

It the part you quoted, Kerry starts off with "They told the stories ..." Who is the "they? Cite the tesimony in context and it becomes clear.

Kerry: "Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington, Senator Pell. I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony."

Nowhere does Kerry say he represents ALL veterans. Obviously not, since ALL veterans where not opposed to the Vietnam war.

What was Kerry referring to when he said "the group"? You have to read the preliminary statement made just before Kerry began speaking.

"Senator Javits: Mr. Chairman, I was down there to the veterans' camp yesterday and saw the New York group and I would like to say I am very proud of the deportment and general attitude of the group."

Kerry is talking about veterans in the group, at most those who opposed the vietnam war. Although not stated explicitly, and the time all knew the group was the VVAW. Obviously, he was not speaking on behalf of all veterans.

As to the head chopping attrocities, let's include the rest of the story:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies ...


The "they" refers to the testimony of the 150.

Here's Kerry admitting to war crimes:

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
(End audiotape)

http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html

The actual testimony that proves my point. NOWHERE in that statement or anywhere else does Kerry say he personally WITNESSED cutting off heads, ears, rape and things of that nature; other otherwise defends the load of crap you are trying to defend.

]And here's Kerry admitting to treason:

I find it amazing that Kerry committed treason, yet the Nixon Administration -- not particularly know for its relaxed attitude towards crime in general and anti-war protestors in particular, did nothing about it.
 

Iriemon

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Nope I'll show you his exact words, now can you defend this load of crap:

First of all, thank you for actually posting quotes with sources. That is worthy of respect.

and here's a link to the full transcript of that testimony that he gave to the Senate Committee:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=3875422

Your link didn't work for me, so I used this one: http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

It the part you quoted, Kerry starts off with "They told the stories ..." Who is the "they? Cite the tesimony in context and it becomes clear.

Kerry: "Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington, Senator Pell. I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony."

What was Kerry referring to when he said "the group"? You have to read the preliminary statement made just before Kerry began speaking.

"Senator Javits: Mr. Chairman, I was down there to the veterans' camp yesterday and saw the New York group and I would like to say I am very proud of the deportment and general attitude of the group."

Kerry is talking about veterans in the group, at most those who opposed the vietnam war. Although not stated explicitly, and the time all knew the group was the VVAW. Obviously, he was not speaking on behalf of all veterans.

As to the head chopping attrocities, let's include the rest of the story:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies ...


The "they" refers to the testimony of the 150.

Here's Kerry admitting to war crimes:

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
(End audiotape)

http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html

The actual testimony that proves my point. NOWHERE in that statement or anywhere else does Kerry say he personally WITNESSED cutting off heads, ears, rape and things of that nature, or otherwise defend the load of crap you are trying to defend.

]And here's Kerry admitting to treason:

I find it amazing that Kerry committed treason, yet the Nixon Administration -- not particularly know for its relaxed attitude towards crime in general and anti-war protestors in particular, did nothing about it.
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

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Iriemon said:
First of all, thank you for actually posting quotes with sources. That is worthy of respect.



Your link didn't work for me, so I used this one: http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

It the part you quoted, Kerry starts off with "They told the stories ..." Who is the "they? Cite the tesimony in context and it becomes clear.

Kerry: "Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington, Senator Pell. I would like to say for the record, and also for the men behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony."

What was Kerry referring to when he said "the group"? You have to read the preliminary statement made just before Kerry began speaking.

"Senator Javits: Mr. Chairman, I was down there to the veterans' camp yesterday and saw the New York group and I would like to say I am very proud of the deportment and general attitude of the group."

Kerry is talking about veterans in the group, at most those who opposed the vietnam war. Although not stated explicitly, and the time all knew the group was the VVAW. Obviously, he was not speaking on behalf of all veterans.

As to the head chopping attrocities, let's include the rest of the story:

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told the stories stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies ...


The "they" refers to the testimony of the 150.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Well if he spoke on their behalf under oath to a senate committe hearing then his statements had damn sure better have been accurate and if his statements were in fact accurate then this 'they' needs to be tracked down and held accountable for their war crimes, and if Kerry's statements were inaccurate then he lied under oath and he needs to be held accountable for perjury.



The actual testimony that proves my point. NOWHERE in that statement or anywhere else does Kerry say he personally WITNESSED cutting off heads, ears, rape and things of that nature, or otherwise defend the load of crap you are trying to defend.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Nope he admitted to commiting them himself:

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
(End audiotape)

And if he took part in it then so is he.

I find it amazing that Kerry committed treason, yet the Nixon Administration -- not particularly know for its relaxed attitude towards crime in general and anti-war protestors in particular, did nothing about it.

I don't care if he was prosecuted for it the fact remains that by his own words before the senate committee hearing in 1971 he admitted to it.
 

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Iriemon said:
I find it amazing that Kerry committed treason, yet the Nixon Administration -- not particularly know for its relaxed attitude towards crime in general and anti-war protestors in particular, did nothing about it.


I dont. Treason is RARELY prosecuted. They usually toss charges with something else in it. I think its currently less than 40 in the last 200 years even attempted.

for example the American Taliban John Walker case.


Usually they hit them with espionage or something like murdering an american national.

Jane Fonda was not charged supposedly because Nixon did not want to create a hippie martyr when he was about to run for reelection.


Hamdi is another interesting case in which he was exiled from the US but eventually may just pop back in for a visit..


Hamdi v. Rumsfeld

If you are bored I recommend going to the courts to hang out and hear cases. They can be really entertaining. I have no idea how judges can seriously listen day in and day out to so much blatant BS.
 

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galenrox said:
[mod mode]
:smash:
Alright, I apologize for the delayed reaction to this.

26 x World Champs, you're officially taking a vacation, 7 days.
You knew we weren't going to tolerate stuff like this much more, and yet you continued to do it. I don't know if you thought we were just joking or what, but anywho, you attempted to call our bluff just to find out we weren't bluffing. Your behavior is consistantly uncivil, and has been for some time.

Also, I would like to point out to you that I am not a conservative. This should dispell any notion you have that you are being targeted due to your politics and not your actions, and possibly make you understand what "unanimous" means.

So enjoy your break and we'll see you in a week. If this continues, you'll have to find some place else to spend your time, because next time I can assure you will be permanant.
[/mod mode]


Dayammm. Galen. Champs rants are what make this fun. I am sure he was warned a few times right? Dont ban him please. His rants are not entirely witless and can be amusing at times. Now exactly who is going to now take on the monumental chore of chainsmoking in a blue mumu while stalking Navy and opposing everything he says?

km_06_angels.jpg



Blue! Red! Arghh.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I don't care if he was prosecuted for it the fact remains that by his own words before the senate committee hearing in 1971 he admitted to it.

Kerry either lied under oath and that is perjury or he committed the crimes he admitted to and those are war crimes......Lt Calley was charged and found guilty for doing the same thing.........
 
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