John Dean, Real Democratic Desperation

[j brown's body]

Actually, all can be bolded and then more bolded accounts added.

Consider the Clinton emails. I'm only bringing this subject up, because I've never seen anyone else make this point. It's a fact Don tRump asked for Russia to find the missing Clinton emails and praised Wikileaks many, many times for posting things. It's also a fact that the main issue with Clinton emails involved her sending classified material improperly. A President has an obligation to obey the law, whether they agree with it or not, but Don tRump managed to run for that office asking Russia to find the missing Clinton emails with the knowledge they may contain classified material.

How can an American of any political ideology support such a thing?

By getting a taste if totalitarianism and liking it.

It all begins by delegitimizing the opposition.

Hitler stopped the Commies. Trump and the GOP must stop the liberals. Niether's supporters cared much about how it was done.

 

[Gary]

This whole BS story started at the highest level of the CIA/NSA/FBI...it didn't work its way through normal chain of command... low level foot soldiers using due diligence in developing case...it was a sham created at the top.

and you wanna impeach a President for getting mad at being called a Traitor.....doesn't that sound a bit silly?

Obstruction of what? No crime and Mueller report was finished....I do like smell of desperation...keep it up

Bull****. The FBI investigated from CIA reports that originated from a Russian source and it was Don tRump's behavior that started the investigation. The Steele Dossier was paid for by both Republicans and Democrats for a month. Can you prove the offer from Fusion wasn't prompted by the Republicans who where against tRump. It's possible, but more probable Fusion just marketed themselves after being told the Republicans weren't going to continue funding.

You can't find the facts on Fox News or blogs you hand pick, but the truth is easy enough to research at it's source.

Just having Barr claiming his Roy Cohn lies as an AG doesn't create facts. Get real, just telling people to ignore subpoenas of Congress is a crime called obstruction of justice. Read the Constitution and figure it out. Telling someone to fire Mueller and telling them to make a false record is a criminal offense. Don tRump is listed as Individual-1 as a co-conspirator in SDNY, the trial that sent his personal lawyer Michael Cohen to jail.

You conservatives didn't have a problem trying to impeach Clinton for lying about an affair, but you easily dismiss Don tRump having two affairs while married and covering up those details in a criminal manner. Why do you waste you time with such an idiot? I've talked to enough real conservatives on forums to know they know Don tRump is not a conservative. They only supported him to get the judges. Making a deal with the devil to try to overturn Roe v Wade doesn't make sense to me. How many abortions has Don tRump caused?

As far as crime goes, what did Mueller say?



If you don't believe it, why is that Fox News video wrong?

 

[Gary]

Better question would be, if he did it 24/7 for over 2 years, at what point would you consider it to be BS



A 100 thousand pages of documents isn't resisting. If you are looking to have a do over from the Mueller report, he has every right to deny your inquest. Which he has done and nobody is charging him over it so theres that.

Mueller managed to go two years without a leak and he started and finished his statement that Russian systematically interfered with the 2016 election, something your side welcomes and doesn't consider a problem. Mueller isn't a brat, the brat was the target of his investigation. Projection is also a common defense by Don tRump, because he has a very limited mind.

Read the Constitution like a judge has. There is no way without a Constitutional Amendment that laws allowing Congress to investigate the Executive branch can be changed. It's written in stone.

It isn't a do over, Mueller told everyone he couldn't indict the President, nor could he say the President committed a crime. He turned it over to Congress and all the nonsense in hell isn't going to change the facts.

Figure out what you're going to do when Don tRump is gone. It's just a matter of time and nothing you can say will change that.

 

[Gary]

By getting a taste if totalitarianism and liking it.

It all begins by delegitimizing the opposition.

Hitler stopped the Commies. Trump and the GOP must stop the liberals. Niether's supporters cared much about how it was done.

Totalitarian regimes use hate to rally support and it's happened often enough to become a red flag.

Hitler's biggest mistake was attacking the USSR and Japan's biggest mistake was attacking Pearl Harbor without disabling the Panama Canal. Relatively minor changes in war strategy could have easily caused major changes in outcomes. Hitler didn't stop the Commies, economics did, long after he was gone.

Totalitarianism will always have problems taking hold in countries where the people want to be free.

The GOP is on it's death bed and already has a plot next to the Whigs. Once they're gone, the Democrats better get their act straight. I left the GOP when Nixon was pardoned and if the Democrats don't impeach tRump, it's goodbye to them, Humpty Dumpty-style.

 

[nota bene]

Thanks for the irrelevant bit of information.

Not what trix or Trump have said. Coup.

Were you unfamiliar with the term? If so, sorry. And it's not irrelevant; "soft coup" is precisely the term that has been bandied about for the past two years.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Were you unfamiliar with the term? If so, sorry. And it's not irrelevant; "soft coup" is precisely the term that has been bandied about for the past two years.

Yes, I was familiar with the term even before the Orange Menace’s debut on the political stage. And yes, your post on soft coups was irrelevant to the ongoing conversation.

As for the term “soft coup” being bandied about for the last two years, if it has been, it’s hasn’t been done publicly anywhere near as often as coup. Matter of fact, I can’t recall a single Trump administration official ever using the term soft coup. Coupe? Yes, many, many times.

 

[Condor060]

Mueller managed to go two years without a leak and he started and finished his statement that Russian systematically interfered with the 2016 election, something your side welcomes and doesn't consider a problem. Mueller isn't a brat, the brat was the target of his investigation. Projection is also a common defense by Don tRump, because he has a very limited mind.

The brat was the Liberal base and the Liberal media claiming Trump was a Russian agent.

Read the Constitution like a judge has. There is no way without a Constitutional Amendment that laws allowing Congress to investigate the Executive branch can be changed. It's written in stone.

AGreed

It isn't a do over, Mueller told everyone he couldn't indict the President, nor could he say the President committed a crime.

That is a lie. Just like the Constitution, a special counsels job doesn't change either. Even though the Special counsel can't convene a grand jury and get an indictment, (As AG Barr stated) the special counsel can recommend any criminal activities they find. Ken Starr did it and Mueller can do it as well. If he couldn't, what the hell is the point of spending 30 million to go after the president if you can't recommend any criminal charges.

He turned it over to Congress and all the nonsense in hell isn't going to change the facts.

He doesn't work for Congress and it isn't his place to recommend anything to congress. The special counsels job is to investigate and report any criminal recommendations to the Attorney General.

Just an FYI, the president can redact the report as well. AG Barr offered the president to opportunity to redact the report and he refused.

Figure out what you're going to do when Don tRump is gone. It's just a matter of time and nothing you can say will change that.

Been hearing that now for over 3 years.

 

[Idiometer]

Dean didn't come forward. He was caught. He was involved with the Watergate burglaries and the Watergate scandal cover-up. Considered to be the "master manipulator of the cover-up" by the FBI he pleaded guilty to a single felony count in exchange for becoming a key witness for the prosecution. This ultimately resulted in a reduced prison sentence, which he served at Fort Holabird outside Baltimore, Maryland.

So lets no try and make some hero out of this guy.

Um ... okay .... I re-read my post, and nowhere did I use the phrase "come forward."

You hate the guy, I get that, but I'm explaining, not excusing, and certainly not calling him a hero. Sheesh.

 

[Gary]

A special counsel has to report finding to the DOJ and an independent counsel doesn't. The findings get sent directly to the AG for a special counsel and picking a life long Republican to do this investigation isn't what I would call going out on a limb. The problem with Don tRump is he doesn't realize there are honest people throughout the political spectrum and crooks, too. That's probably because he was never a conservative, never read much to learn much of anything and conned his way thru life, because he inherited a fortune.

Complaining about Mueller not indicting a President is meaningless and his position to not accuse criminality for a President is valid. He investigated and turned his findings over to Congress. It's their job now. If someone doesn't like it, tough. I was taught like Mueller was, life doesn't promise you a rose garden.

 

[Idiometer]

Not trying to be hostile. I posted that Deans testimony was hearsay and why it was worthless. You answered there were others who were testifying.
My question is, does that somehow make Deans testimony not hearsay anymore because others were testifying? Didn't mean it to come of snarky.

In my opinion, his testimony is valid because he's been there and done that. Cautionary tale, one that Trump obviously doesn't understand. It's never the deed that gets you in trouble, it's always the coverup.

Those who refuse to study history deserve to repeat it.

 

[Gary]

Dean didn't come forward. He was caught. He was involved with the Watergate burglaries and the Watergate scandal cover-up. Considered to be the "master manipulator of the cover-up" by the FBI he pleaded guilty to a single felony count in exchange for becoming a key witness for the prosecution. This ultimately resulted in a reduced prison sentence, which he served at Fort Holabird outside Baltimore, Maryland.

So lets no try and make some hero out of this guy.

Fort Holabird was a US Army post inside and not outside Baltimore, Maryland. It isn't and has never been a prison.

Fort Holabird was located in the southeast corner of the city, fronting on Holabird Ave. between Broening Highway and Dundalk Ave. From 1941 until the end of World War II, the installation grew to include approximately 350 acres and 286 buildings. After World War II, activities at Fort Holabird were curtailed and portions of the property were transferred from the Army. The largest transfer occurred in the timeframe between 1977 and 1979, when 223 acres were transferred to the City of Baltimore. The City developed the land into the Fort Holabird Industrial Park.[1]

Source: Fort Holabird - Wikipedia

Try wiki instead of blogs to get proper information.

 

[Condor060]

Complaining about Mueller not indicting a President is meaningless and his position to not accuse criminality for a President is valid. He investigated and turned his findings over to Congress.

Mueller never turned anything over to congress, Barr did as that isn't Mueller job or authority to do so. Mueller works directly for the AG, not Congress.

Barr already said Mueller was well within his authority to recommend criminal charges to the AG. Not really sure why you don't get that. You do know that recommending charges to the AG is not Inditing a President, Right?

 

[Condor060]

Fort Holabird was a US Army post inside and not outside Baltimore, Maryland. It isn't and has never been a prison.

Not really sure how you came up with that. It was used as a prison for many years.

Due to its proximity to Washington, D.C., Ft. Holabird was used to guard witnesses in major federal cases, such as the Watergate hearings. E Howard Hunt, Charles Colson and John Dean were among the Watergate witnesses of the Nixon administration that were incarcerated for Watergate-related charges at the Ft. after the hearings were completed.

 

[Gary]

Mueller never turned anything over to congress, Barr did as that isn't Mueller job or authority to do so. Mueller works directly for the AG, not Congress.

Barr already said Mueller was well within his authority to recommend criminal charges to the AG. Not really sure why you don't get that. You do know that recommending charges to the AG is not Inditing a President, Right?

It doesn't make a difference what Barr says. What does Mueller say?



Try reading the report, the movie isn't going to be great. You can get it on audio, if you don't want to read it.

Claiming Mueller didn't walk to Congress and hand them the report is meaningless. The Mueller team was working on the redactions with the AG and the Mueller team protested what Barr said. It works out like this, either Barr is faking to be a personal attorney for the President or he's sold out. His behavior is so outrageous, it's either hero or goat for him. I can think of good reasons why someone would become the AG and act in such ways with someone like Don "the Mensa" tRump.

 

[Gary]

Not really sure how you came up with that. It was used as a prison for many years.

Due to its proximity to Washington, D.C., Ft. Holabird was used to guard witnesses in major federal cases, such as the Watergate hearings. E Howard Hunt, Charles Colson and John Dean were among the Watergate witnesses of the Nixon administration that were incarcerated for Watergate-related charges at the Ft. after the hearings were completed.

In 1972 and 1973, I often spent Sunday evenings in Dundalk, Md. Places like Ft. Holabird aren't that unusual. They get built around wartimes and after the war, the government doesn't have much use for them. They are a nice place to put someone in protective custody and they aren't a prison. The places are deserted with very limited activity, usually only a few buildings are used. The areas aren't productive and the maintenance costs are higher than the gains they provide.

Try google maps with a satellite image to see what's left of Ft Holabird. The industrial park is located on the acreage sold after Dean was there. About two thirds was sold to the city to develop the land.

 

[Condor060]

It doesn't make a difference what Barr says. What does Mueller say?

What are you talking about? Who told you this? You do know the AG can disagree with Mueller and can ditch his entire report if he wanted to. You do know Mueller works for Barr and Barr is the Attorney General. Where do you come up with stuff like this?

Claiming Mueller didn't walk to Congress and hand them the report is meaningless.

I never stated that. I said Mueller reports to Barr and Barr reports to Congress

The Mueller team was working on the redactions with the AG and the Mueller team protested what Barr said.

No they didn't, they wanted more of the report in Barrs original letter. Nothing Barr stated was any different than the outcome of the report.

Mueller stated there was no conspiracy by any US citizen or any associate of the Trump campaign to help Russia meddle in the 2016 election. Mueller could have recommended charges for Obstruction but he didn't so Rosenstein and Barr read the report and made that decision themselves.

The crazy theories about nothing Barr says counts or Barr lied to Congress is just more bluster after the fact.

 

[Gary]

What are you talking about? Who told you this? You do know the AG can disagree with Mueller and can ditch his entire report if he wanted to. You do know Mueller works for Barr and Barr is the Attorney General. Where do you come up with stuff like this?



I never stated that. I said Mueller reports to Barr and Barr reports to Congress


No they didn't, they wanted more of the report in Barrs original letter. Nothing Barr stated was any different than the outcome of the report.

Mueller stated there was no conspiracy by any US citizen or any associate of the Trump campaign to help Russia meddle in the 2016 election. Mueller could have recommended charges for Obstruction but he didn't so Rosenstein and Barr read the report and made that decision themselves.

The crazy theories about nothing Barr says counts or Barr lied to Congress is just more bluster after the fact.

Who told me? Mueller, in his letter, report and announcement.

How many times have I stated a special counsel is required by law to submit it's findings to the AG, but an independent counsel doesn't? Obeying the law and submitting a report to the AG is a little different than working for someone. So what if Mueller is technically a special counsel who is in the Executive Branch and Don "the Mensa" tRump or Barr can fire him. How many hours would it take for Mueller to become an independent counsel, if he was fired as special counsel? The President tried to fire Mueller with Don McGahn, who didn't do it and was told to falsify records to state the President never asked him to fire Mueller, which he also didn't do and resigned as Whitehouse Counsel. BTW, that behavior involves several serious crimes that can only disappear with the statute of limitations, the President has to be charged within 5 years for obstruction of justice, not sure what the limitations are for witness tampering. It's obvious that there is a difference between having the authority to fire someone and doing so lawfully. Being a President is different than pretending you're a big shot on the Apprentice.

Figure this out, the Don McGahn history is only one example of obstruction and misconduct, it's well documented, can be further supported by witnesses and it isn't going to disappear. Stunts like telling Don McGahn and others to ignore subpoenas only add more criminal charges against the President. Being a fighter can work well in some circumstances, but not this one, it's hopeless.

 

[nota bene]

Yes, I was familiar with the term even before the Orange Menace’s debut on the political stage. And yes, your post on soft coups was irrelevant to the ongoing conversation.

Unless, of course, facts emerge that indicate that that was an attempted soft coup.

As for the term “soft coup” being bandied about for the last two years, if it has been, it’s hasn’t been done publicly anywhere near as often as coup. Matter of fact, I can’t recall a single Trump administration official ever using the term soft coup.

So?

 

[Trump]

Who told me? Mueller, in his letter, report and announcement.

How many times have I stated a special counsel is required by law to submit it's findings to the AG, but an independent counsel doesn't? Obeying the law and submitting a report to the AG is a little different than working for someone. So what if Mueller is technically a special counsel who is in the Executive Branch and Don "the Mensa" tRump or Barr can fire him. How many hours would it take for Mueller to become an independent counsel, if he was fired as special counsel? The President tried to fire Mueller with Don McGahn, who didn't do it and was told to falsify records to state the President never asked him to fire Mueller, which he also didn't do and resigned as Whitehouse Counsel. BTW, that behavior involves several serious crimes that can only disappear with the statute of limitations, the President has to be charged within 5 years for obstruction of justice, not sure what the limitations are for witness tampering. It's obvious that there is a difference between having the authority to fire someone and doing so lawfully. Being a President is different than pretending you're a big shot on the Apprentice.

Figure this out, the Don McGahn history is only one example of obstruction and misconduct, it's well documented, can be further supported by witnesses and it isn't going to disappear. Stunts like telling Don McGahn and others to ignore subpoenas only add more criminal charges against the President. Being a fighter can work well in some circumstances, but not this one, it's hopeless.

"Mueller Truther"...gonna take that bible to your grave:lol:

 

[Gary]

BTW and for the record:

His guilty plea to a single felony in exchange for becoming a key witness for the prosecution, ultimately resulted in a reduced sentence, which he served at Fort Holabird outside Baltimore, Maryland.

Source: John Dean - Wikipedia

Google Maps

The wiki article on John Dean isn't accurate. Fort Holabird isn't outside Baltimore, MD and John Dean's sentence expired while in protective custody at Fort Holabird, so he is correct in that he never went to prison.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Unless, of course, facts emerge that indicate that that was an attempted soft coup.

Bring it up when (or if) those facts ever do emerge. For now, try sticking to what we do know; Trump and his minions have repeatedly accused the Dems of an attempted coup, which is obviously false.

So?

So, you said the term “soft coup” has been bandied about for the past two years. Do you have references of Trump or his minions using that term repeatedly?

 

[Gary]

"Mueller Truther"...gonna take that bible to your grave:lol:

I'm not the one heading for jail, no one wrote a 448 page report of my misconduct.

Tell it to the 1k+ Republican and Democrat prosecutors who state Don "the Mensa" tRump would be indicted solely by the information in the redacted Mueller Report, if he wasn't President. Tell it to Don "the Mensa" tRump who said:

"This Is the End of My Presidency. I'm ****ed," Trump Said on May 17, 2017

Source: https://www.portlandmercury.com/blo...residency-im-****ed-trump-said-on-may-17-2017

Tell it to the Judge. As Don "the Mensa" tRump has said many times, "I'm not a fan" and his behavior, not mine determined that I'm not a fan.

 

[nota bene]

Bring it up when (or if) those facts ever do emerge. For now, try sticking to what we do know; Trump and his minions have repeatedly accused the Dems of an attempted coup, which is obviously false.


So, you said the term “soft coup” has been bandied about for the past two years. Do you have references of Trump or his minions using that term repeatedly?

Bob Woodward's Book and the Soft Coup Against Trump - The Atlantic

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Bob Woodward's Book and the Soft Coup Against Trump - The Atlantic

I enjoyed reading Woodward’s best selling biography of the Trump administration, and recommend it to everyone.

Although the article you’ve cited uses the words “soft coup”, it actually speaks to insubordination. A soft coup’s ultimate goal is the same as a coupe; to take over power of a government. None of the deeds described in Woodward’s book meet that definition, instead, Woodward describes multiple incidents of Trump staff simply not carrying orders. That is insubordination.

Returning to your assertion of the idea of a “soft coup” being bandied about over the last two years, there have been a small number of mentions of that however, the incidents of Trump and his minions outright accusing the left of an attempted coup vastly outnumbers any mentions of a soft coup.

“This was a coup”: Trump escalates his authoritarian rhetoric
“This was a coup”: Trump escalates his authoritarian rhetoric - Vox
Trump claims 'bad apples' are being ousted after Mueller team's 'coup' attempt
Trump claims 'bad apples' are being ousted after Mueller team's 'coup' attempt - POLITICO
Trump Accuses Political Rivals of Attempted “Coup” on Primetime TV
Trump Accuses Political Rivals of Attempted “Coup” on Primetime TV | Vanity Fair
Trump says he was the target of ‘an attempted coup’ with Mueller investigation
https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.w...9-842d-7d3ed7eb3957_story.html?outputType=amp
Trump repeats unsubstantiated claims of 'coup' attempt after former FBI lawyer knocks them down
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...ims-coup-attempt-fbi-lawyer/story?id=63001147
Trump urges inquiry into 'attempted coup' against him
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-47884252
Trump mimics far right, calls Mueller probe a ‘coup’
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thinkp...-right-wing-far-right-media-29a5ac834b4e/amp/
Trump Called Sean Hannity to Rant On-Air for 45 Minutes About the 'Coup' Against Him. Everything Is Fine.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.es...nterview-coup-mueller-report-hillary-clinton/
Echoing Trump, House GOP leader repeats incendiary 'coup' claim
https://www.google.com/amp/www.msnb...-gop-leader-repeats-incendiary-coup-claim/amp
DONALD TRUMP SAYS HE DIDN'T NEED GUN TO PROTECT FROM 'COUP,' RAILS AGAINST 'COLLUSION DELUSION'
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...llusion-delusion-nra-convention-1406873?amp=1
Trump endorses claim that McCabe was part of 'coup attempt'
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna972791
Fox News accuses Mueller of coup to overthrow Trump
https://splinternews.com/fox-news-accuses-fbi-mueller-of-coup-to-overthrow-tr-1821366749
Fox News and Kellyanne Conway Suggest There Is a 'Coup in America'
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ha...-suggest-there-is-a-coup-in-america-1.5628891
And on, and on, and on, and on .......

Lastly, let’s not forget why we are where we are in this conversation. You jumped into a debate between me and trix, attempting to offer her a fake lifeline.

Do you think Brennan was the mastermind of the Trump coup?

You have been 100% wrong from your first BS assertion, up to now.

 

[trixare4kids]

You have been 100% wrong from your first BS assertion, up to now.

You would have to spell out exactly what I am wrong about before I will engage further with you.
Copying and pasting dozens of links from Google doesn't prove anything.