Joe Six-Pack

[Hoplite]

At the risk of sounding like a Fascist, why does there seem to be this big push now to listen to what the average person says? It seems to be something the Republicans have picked up of late more than most.

Public opinion polls, sites that let you advocate about what to cut or what to fix in the government, balance the budget games, etc etc.

Why are we treating the average person like they have the answers?

This is a good example that was posted in another thread
Eric Cantor || Republican Whip || YouCut

The average person has NO idea what it takes to run our government and even less of how the money is actually distributed. It's easy to make reactionary grumbles when things arent going exactly how we want them, but why treat these like they're the next big solution?

I agree that SOME people have SOME good ideas and that an outsider perspective is often helpful, but calling on the average person to make budget decisions about their government seems like a toweringly dumb idea; especially when you consider how crappy most Americans are with their own personal finances anyways.

 

[OscarB63]

Why are we treating the average person like they have the answers?

maybe because it has become painfully obvious that the "experts" don't????? :shrug:

 

[ARealConservative]

At the risk of sounding like a Fascist, why does there seem to be this big push now to listen to what the average person says? It seems to be something the Republicans have picked up of late more than most.

Public opinion polls, sites that let you advocate about what to cut or what to fix in the government, balance the budget games, etc etc.

Why are we treating the average person like they have the answers?

This is a good example that was posted in another thread
Eric Cantor || Republican Whip || YouCut

The average person has NO idea what it takes to run our government and even less of how the money is actually distributed. It's easy to make reactionary grumbles when things arent going exactly how we want them, but why treat these like they're the next big solution?

I agree that SOME people have SOME good ideas and that an outsider perspective is often helpful, but calling on the average person to make budget decisions about their government seems like a toweringly dumb idea; especially when you consider how crappy most Americans are with their own personal finances anyways.

any concern for living in a society that is guided by the masses who aren't smart enough to do the guiding?

Isn't such a climate ripe for disaster? Do you prefer just removing the pretense of having a say in how things are run?

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Hrrm you're right during the bush admin there were alot of ideological appointments over completely qualified people.

 

[Hoplite]

maybe because it has become painfully obvious that the "experts" don't????? :shrug:

It's obvious the experts aren't perfect, but I dont really see that somebody who has a vague (and probably wrong) idea of what's going on could do a better job than someone with actual education or experience in the pertinant subject. It's like asking a tattoo artist to do your appendectomy; yeah he might have SOME idea of what to do and the chances of getting a stupid surgeon aren't bad, but that doesn't change the fact that you're DOWNGRADING and think it's a good idea.

any concern for living in a society that is guided by the masses who aren't smart enough to do the guiding?

Isn't such a climate ripe for disaster? Do you prefer just removing the pretense of having a say in how things are run?

The founders of the US didnt seem to see a problem with keeping the average person out of government, for the most part.

 

[ARealConservative]

The founders of the US didnt seem to see a problem with keeping the average person out of government, for the most part.

If the argument is to follow more closely, the thinking of the founders, then sign me up!

 

[Hoplite]

If the argument is to follow more closely, the thinking of the founders, then sign me up!

Really? A minute ago you weren't in favor of keeping the average person out of government, yet when you heard the founders did it, you immediately flipped a 180.

This is an honest question; do you just follow whatever you think (or what someone tells you) the founders did/intended to do?

 

[OscarB63]

than someone with actual education or experience in the pertinant subject.

and just how many members of congress have any actual education or experience with the pertinent subjects?

 

[Hoplite]

and just how many members of congress have any actual education or experience with the pertinent subjects?

Not being the kind of guy who collects Congressional trading cards, I dont know.

 

[ARealConservative]

Really? A minute ago you weren't in favor of keeping the average person out of government, yet when you heard the founders did it, you immediately flipped a 180.

I was? Where? I thought I asked a couple of loaded questions

Do we stop running the economy because it is too complicated, or do we stop allowing people to have a say in how the economy is ran because it is too complicated


so you see, I didn' really give you my insight at that time, I asked you for yours.

This is an honest question; do you just follow whatever you think (or what someone tells you) the founders did/intended to do?

I have a pretty strong opinion and have no qualms about sharing it.

 

[Hoplite]

I was? Where? I thought I asked a couple of loaded questions

Ok, that wasn't terribly clear.

so you see, I didn' really give you my insight at that time, I asked you for yours.

I dont see what those questions have to do with the topic.

 

[ARealConservative]

Ok, that wasn't terribly clear.


I dont see what those questions have to do with the topic.

You jumped the gun, but that's ok.

The founders had an extremely limited view of the role of government. I obviously love their views, but I didn't introduce that meme, you did.

I agree with you that in the present climate, Joe Sixpack can't possibly have a handle on the right thing to do, but who decides who does have a handle on what to do?

That is what I'm not getting. you identified a problem, but what is your solution?

 

[Hoplite]

You jumped the gun, but that's ok.

I was honestly confused by what you were saying.

The founders had an extremely limited view of the role of government. I obviously love their views, but I didn't introduce that meme, you did.

They also lived in a far simpler world than we do currently.

I agree with you that in the present climate, Joe Sixpack can't possibly have a handle on the right thing to do, but who decides who does have a handle on what to do?

That is what I'm not getting. you identified a problem, but what is your solution?

I simply asked a question. My own personal solution would be to smack people's hands away from the populism buffet and tell them they cant have anymore until they finish their education. Part of the problem as I see it is people have unrealistic ideas of how government works because they've never been properly taught. This is the kind of stuff you need to spend time on in high school, three months of US Government classes for 30 minutes a day doesnt cut it.

 

[OscarB63]

My own personal solution would be to smack people's hands away from the populism buffet and tell them they cant have anymore until they finish their education. Part of the problem as I see it is people have unrealistic ideas of how government works because they've never been properly taught. This is the kind of stuff you need to spend time on in high school, three months of US Government classes for 30 minutes a day doesnt cut it.

would you be in favor of denying the ignorant the right to vote? since they have unrealistic ideas of how govt works...surely they can't be trusted to elect those who run the govt.

 

[Hoplite]

would you be in favor of denying the ignorant the right to vote? since they have unrealistic ideas of how govt works...surely they can't be trusted to elect those who run the govt.

No, as much as I facepalm at people who slobber about stopping foodstamps or making people pay for police and fire services (both serious suggestions I was given once), people should have the right to at least have some say in their government.

I DO think however we need to have standards about who can run for office with regards to education. I lean slightly Technocratic in that, yes, it may give you a warm and fuzzy feeling to know that (theoretically) any fool can run for office and possibly succeed, it isn't a good recipe for a functioning government. There's a reason that the more people you get together, the dumber their decisions tend to be. Coupled with minimum standards for education for office holders, I'd like to see a large education initiative at the lower educational levels. Start as young as you possibly can, teach them what government is, how it works, and what they can do to change it.

I get tired of people pissing on and on about how our government is broken then scribbling AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM on a piece of paper and furiously masturbating to it. The irritation gets even higher when people display less than no familiarity with how their own government works. I'm not saying you should have the names of all members of the House and Senate memorized, but you should at least have a passing familiarity with the basics of government.

 

[ARealConservative]

They also lived in a far simpler world than we do currently.

I don't know about "far simpler", but for expedience, I'll go along with that.

So because it is more complicated, the chance that people can successfully have a say in operations is reduced. Doesn't that mean we should try our best to eliminate the type of environment where critical decisions are made by people?

Take the Federal Reserve. They have a a powerful switch. Set it one way and we lower interest rates. Set it another, and we raise them.

Now I take it you are saying, that switch is too damn complicated. Don't let Joe Six pack have a say in the how that switch is operated. Fine. joe Six Pack has no say. Who does? How do we know if that guy is doing it right?

Wouldn't it be safer to remove the switch altogether?

 

[OscarB63]

No, as much as I facepalm at people who slobber about stopping foodstamps or making people pay for police and fire services (both serious suggestions I was given once), people should have the right to at least have some say in their government.

even if, as you said, they have no clue how the govt is run? isn't that much like letting your plumber remove your appendix?

I DO think however we need to have standards about who can run for office with regards to education.

what does it matter how qualified the candidates are if you are going to let any and every idiot vote? you know the one's I am talking about. the ones who vote based on race, gender, party, how cool the guy's name sounds, how handsome they are, etc

Coupled with minimum standards for education for office holders, I'd like to see a large education initiative at the lower educational levels. Start as young as you possibly can, teach them what government is, how it works, and what they can do to change it.

coupled with minimum standards for education for office holders....I'd like to see minimum standards for voters. being 18 and a non-felon citizen is settting the bar very low

The irritation gets even higher when people display less than no familiarity with how their own government works. I'm not saying you should have the names of all members of the House and Senate memorized, but you should at least have a passing familiarity with the basics of government.

but you still think that these retards with no familiarity with the basics of govt should be allowed to vote?

 

[Hoplite]

I don't know about "far simpler", but for expedience, I'll go along with that.

So because it is more complicated, the chance that people can successfully have a say in operations is reduced. Doesn't that mean we should try our best to eliminate the type of environment where critical decisions are made by people?

Our world today is made up of far more component parts and an almost un-quantifiable amount more information than the time of the founders. Our lives move at the speed of light compared to theirs. We arent necessarily smarter, we just have a more complex world now and I think ideas from a time before even the invention of electricity are probably not the best bricks to use to build a government.

The idea of small government is fine until you start getting into questions of human rights. During the Industrial Revolution, we saw what horror an unregulated private sector would do and we decided that it was better for our society to have the government step in and say "No, you cant use 8 year old boys as runners in coal mines." We've reached the same agreement with concepts of water safety, consumer rights, full disclosure, etc etc. These things become endangered when you start shrinking government. With a more complex society, you have a greater need for regulation in order for it to work.

Take the Federal Reserve. They have a a powerful switch. Set it one way and we lower interest rates. Set it another, and we raise them.

Now I take it you are saying, that switch is too damn complicated. Don't let Joe Six pack have a say in the how that switch is operated. Fine. joe Six Pack has no say. Who does? How do we know if that guy is doing it right?

There are plenty of qualified economists in this country, last I checked.

Wouldn't it be safer to remove the switch altogether?

Possibly, now would it be FEASIBLE to remove that switch altogether?

even if, as you said, they have no clue how the govt is run? isn't that much like letting your plumber remove your appendix?

what does it matter how qualified the candidates are if you are going to let any and every idiot vote? you know the one's I am talking about. the ones who vote based on race, gender, party, how cool the guy's name sounds, how handsome they are, etc

Damage from ignorance can be minimized if you have a pool of qualified applicants.

coupled with minimum standards for education for office holders....I'd like to see minimum standards for voters. being 18 and a non-felon citizen is settting the bar very low

I think as soon as you start putting things like education requirements for voters on, then you start a discrimination of class. Poorer people who dont have access to education are going to be ineligible to vote in greater numbers and you've created an aristocratic democracy where the voices of the poor are ignored simply because they're poor.

And no I dont apply that same logic to education requirements for elected officials. When you have people who can choose who to vote for, a balance between education and an understanding of what the working poor are doing can be reached.

but you still think that these retards with no familiarity with the basics of govt should be allowed to vote?

Yes, I do.

 

[OscarB63]

Poorer people who dont have access to education are going to be ineligible to vote in greater numbers and you've created an aristocratic democracy where the voices of the poor are ignored simply because they're poor.

wrong. poorer people have the same access to public education as the middle class. poorer people have greater access to higher education because, unlike the middle class, the poor qualifiy for free govt grants to go to college and the middle class kids don't.

it's not that the poorer people don't have access to education, they just don't take advantage of their access to education. which is why I have no problem denying the uneducated the right to vote.

 

[ARealConservative]

There are plenty of qualified economists in this country, last I checked.

Says who? Why wouldn' t I discount your views as just a Joe six Pack heretic?

Most of the qualified economists had no clue this recession was coming until it was here.

Possibly, now would it be FEASIBLE to remove that switch altogether?

Depends on who you ask, and who you trust, and who I trust.

 

[TurtleDude]

Hrrm you're right during the bush admin there were alot of ideological appointments over completely qualified people.

yeah Kagan and QuotaMayor were the two most qualified jurists available in the USA.

ROberts and ALito were arguably the best available

Kagan doesn't come close

 

[Barbbtx]

At the risk of sounding like a Fascist, why does there seem to be this big push now to listen to what the average person says? It seems to be something the Republicans have picked up of late more than most.

Public opinion polls, sites that let you advocate about what to cut or what to fix in the government, balance the budget games, etc etc.

Why are we treating the average person like they have the answers?

This is a good example that was posted in another thread
Eric Cantor || Republican Whip || YouCut

The average person has NO idea what it takes to run our government and even less of how the money is actually distributed. It's easy to make reactionary grumbles when things arent going exactly how we want them, but why treat these like they're the next big solution?

I agree that SOME people have SOME good ideas and that an outsider perspective is often helpful, but calling on the average person to make budget decisions about their government seems like a toweringly dumb idea; especially when you consider how crappy most Americans are with their own personal finances anyways.

What did you do? Click on the link and see that the first on the list was to cut funding of NPR and get your liberal panties in a bunch?
YouCut is a way for us to vote and also share our own ideas with our leaders.
The republicans have promised to listen to us, unlike the dems who ignored us. By voting we are showing what we would like them to bring to the floor. We still don't have the power to actually pass anything.
If we don't vote in elections we have no right to complain. I feel the same way about YouCut. Don't bitch about what gets cut if you don't even take time to express an opinion on it.

 

[VanceMack]

At the risk of sounding like a Fascist, why does there seem to be this big push now to listen to what the average person says? It seems to be something the Republicans have picked up of late more than most.

Public opinion polls, sites that let you advocate about what to cut or what to fix in the government, balance the budget games, etc etc.

Why are we treating the average person like they have the answers?

Perhaps because the genius elected officials in both parties have destroyed the economy and spent us into a 14 trillion dollar hole...and obviously havent done to good a job in the whole 'solution' game...

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Perhaps because the genius elected officials in both parties have destroyed the economy and spent us into a 14 trillion dollar hole...and obviously havent done to good a job in the whole 'solution' game...

It couldnt have anything to do with the larger global economic situation, or possibly the preceding elected officials who got us here. But it sucks now, screw the people trying to fix it. Hehe!

 

[VanceMack]

It couldnt have anything to do with the larger global economic situation, or possibly the preceding elected officials who got us here. But it sucks now, screw the people trying to fix it. Hehe!

Our 14 trillion dollar debt and unemployment problem is a direct result of OUR governments FAILURES...BOTH parties. Sadly there are a fairly significant number of myopic morons that can ONLY see fault in one side or the other. And that would be funny if it wasnt so insanely pathetic.