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Jimmy Carter: ‘America no longer has a functioning democracy’

Blue_State

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Jimmy Carter: 'America no longer has functioning democracy' | The Daily Caller

The former president continued that democratic developments — fueled by sites such as Facebook and Twitter — might be damaged by the NSA revelations, essentially strangling emerging democratic revolutions in the cradle by casting doubt on the social media juggernauts’ independent credibility.
I hope this developes a little more. I think he is making an important point.
 

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Jimmy Carter: 'America no longer has functioning democracy' | The Daily Caller

I hope this developes a little more. I think he is making an important point.
Yes it seems so. If the NSA is watching attitudes through Facebook, Twitter and other social networks it may detect trends that may not match its policies. Later it may use mechanisms to stop growth of policies that promote its politics and increase growth of those that do so. Influencing impact from start.

That is if it has nothing better to do than play nanny/teacher by using such data.
 

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Yes it seems so. If the NSA is watching attitudes through Facebook, Twitter and other social networks it may detect trends that may not match its policies. Later it may use mechanisms to stop growth of policies that promote its politics and increase growth of those that do so. Influencing impact from start.

That is if it has nothing better to do than play nanny/teacher by using such data.
The NSA doesn't make policy; it is but an signals intelligence collection agency. Policy is created and implemented by politicians- take your grievances to them.
 

cpwill

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The NSA doesn't make policy; it is but an signals intelligence collection agency. Policy is created and implemented by politicians- take your grievances to them.
9/11 Commission Report p 88

The NSA had an "almost obsessive protection of sources and methods, and its' focus on foreign intelligence and its avoidance of anything domestic" helped create the "wall" in U.S. intelligence that resulted in missing the 9/11 plot before it happened.

IOW - all the stuff that we are shocked - shocked - to find going on in here is what we told them to go do.
 

WCH

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The NSA doesn't make policy; it is but an signals intelligence collection agency. Policy is created and implemented by politicians- take your grievances to them.

Under the umbrella of the Dept. of Homeland Security, it is indeed run by a politician who make not only policy but, all decisions.
 

cpwill

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Under the umbrella of the Dept. of Homeland Security, it is indeed run by a politician who make not only policy but, all decisions.
NSA falls under DOD.
 

DaveFagan

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Jimmy Carter: 'America no longer has functioning democracy' | The Daily Caller



I hope this developes a little more. I think he is making an important point.
I've watched the re-distribution of monies to the banks and the passing of legislation to specifically protect and empower Corporate America and that is Corporatism or if you asked Mussolini, "fascism." We seem to be on the fast track to a permanent war economy because it is good for the entrenched and politically connected Corporations that have been sucking the Taxpayers teet for way too long. How do we do wholesale house cleaning with Republican morons and Democratic mutts in control of the systems that were built to protect the citizens. It's truly disgusting and I'm not proud of America. Today's USA does not represent the generous and kind hearted nature of its' citizens.
 

Blue_State

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:doh In other news, apparently there was no democracy before the invention of the internet. :roll:
I think he was saying that the internet is ruining freedom because the government is taking a tool and using it against its citizens for its unintended purpose.
 

notquiteright

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9-11 was not a failure of overseas intelligence gathering being coordinated with domestic agencies- it was a failure of the FBI to process vital tips from field agents regarding tell tale actions by foreigners on USofA soil.

The NSA didn't invent using propaganda or monitoring electronic signals for our national 'interest'. We do remember a very recent use of DoD propaganda printed in Iraqi news sources under Iraqi reporter's by lines in an attempt to influence the people we were 'helping'- don't we?

I would say if one describes our nation as a non functioning democracy it is more so due to a deadlocked hyper partisan political climate, intensive lobbying by big money special interest groups and a growing sense of 'I got mine, to hell with the rest of you'. As our economy turns from a consumer driven one to a wealth hoarding one, democracy suffers. A constant drumbeat to maintain a military not just defensive in nature but capable of enforcing our corporate demands on the world turns us away from our own citizens and unequal social conditions. Our big cities, once the pinnacle of our nation are now the blight of it- and you can't blame liberals for that- ALL of society and political leanings have a hand in this.

Our drone program seems like a bad sci-fi movie where an E-Vile Empire enforces it's rule on a subject planet by overhead death orbs.

But to me the use of the NSA to monitor and influence social babble is just an extension of what governments have been doing for centuries, just updated to match the new social trends.
 

cpwill

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I think he was saying that the internet is ruining freedom because the government is taking a tool and using it against its citizens for its unintended purpose.
No. His idiotic statement presupposes the necessity of an internet as a precondition for democracy. Otherwise, observation of the activity on it could not effect democracy.
 

cpwill

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Defending our critical infrastructure from computer network attack is just plain smart.

:doh this is a classic case of ill-suited crossover. The NSA is run by professionals. The DHS is a bunch of misfit goobs.

The desire to be under the same umbrella is apparent.
From an IC perspective, they all fall partly under the DNI.
 

TheNextEra

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The NSA is run by professionals. The DHS is a bunch of misfit goobs.
That is your opinion, but it is just your opinion. ALL agencies in the government have had wasteful spending, so I don't see the NSA being any different just because it is under the DoD.
 

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I think he was saying that the internet is ruining freedom because the government is taking a tool and using it against its citizens for its unintended purpose.
If it were unintended then there would be no reason to do it. I can assure you it is intended.
 

cpwill

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That is your opinion, but it is just your opinion.
....not really. It's just opinion sort of in the same way that the belief among most NFL players that - currently - the Jets kinda suck is "just opinion". DHS is an unfortunate joke, widely staffed by people out of their element (you find counter-examples: within the Coast Guard, for example. But Big DHS? Not so much. The scissors video was all too unsurprising.).

ALL agencies in the government have had wasteful spending, so I don't see the NSA being any different just because it is under the DoD.
Yeah. There is a definite qualitative difference. The NSA, for example, is staffed by the super nerds of the super nerds. If you are extremely good at what you do, you may get a chance to compete for a chance to try out for the NSA's players (there is a reason Snowden wasn't NSA, but rather a contractor whose job it was to give out accounts and passwords). The DHS, however, was staffed in a hurry, and so the call went out for anyone who had a Masters Degree - which turned out to mean a lot of retired or former teachers. So the NSA is staffed by SIGINT ninjas... and the DHS is staffed by the lady who got bored teaching 10th Grade Social Studies. Qualitative. Difference.
 

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No. His idiotic statement presupposes the necessity of an internet as a precondition for democracy. Otherwise, observation of the activity on it could not effect democracy.
Good point. I was remarking to another statement he had. I read it earlier on a German site.
 

TheNextEra

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....not really. It's just opinion sort of in the same way that the belief among most NFL players that - currently - the Jets kinda suck is "just opinion". DHS is an unfortunate joke, widely staffed by people out of their element (you find counter-examples: within the Coast Guard, for example. But Big DHS? Not so much. The scissors video was all too unsurprising.).



Yeah. There is a definite qualitative difference. The NSA, for example, is staffed by the super nerds of the super nerds. If you are extremely good at what you do, you may get a chance to compete for a chance to try out for the NSA's players (there is a reason Snowden wasn't NSA, but rather a contractor whose job it was to give out accounts and passwords). The DHS, however, was staffed in a hurry, and so the call went out for anyone who had a Masters Degree - which turned out to mean a lot of retired or former teachers. So the NSA is staffed by SIGINT ninjas... and the DHS is staffed by the lady who got bored teaching 10th Grade Social Studies. Qualitative. Difference.
You need to stop watching T.V. and movies. Yes, there are intelligent people in the NSA, but they are managed by regular people as well, not super nerd geniouses. A neighbor of mine when I was in North Carolina got picked as a Manager and he was no super nerd.

So you might want to step back and not believe every movie you see on T.V.
 

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Good point. I was remarking to another statement he had. I read it earlier on a German site.
Fair enough.


To bring it back to the OP, I think he is trying to claim that the unrestricted communications of Facebook etc. are enablers of Democracy, and that the NSA program limits the effectiveness of those enablers.

Two points about how very wrong he was:

1. Information derived from programs of the kind he is referring to are not exactly shared with the likes of Egyptian police. They are - you know - sort of "secret".
2. Facebook et. al. do not enable democracy. They enable group action. There is an important difference between "representative government" and "a mob".
 

cpwill

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You need to stop watching T.V. and movies. Yes, there are intelligent people in the NSA, but they are managed by regular people as well, not super nerd geniouses. A neighbor of mine when I was in North Carolina got picked as a Manager and he was no super nerd.

So you might want to step back and not believe every movie you see on T.V.
Information presented above not derived from television (as I do not get American TV, living abroad as I do), but rather from direct interaction with the relevant agencies discussed, and interaction with other members of the Intelligence Community, admittedly heavily weighted in favor of the DIA. I've worked with analysts from DHS. Not impressed. I've worked with analysts working with NSA. Not so much a different ballgame as a different league.
 

TheNextEra

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Information presented above not derived from television (as I do not get American TV, living abroad as I do), but rather from direct interaction with the relevant agencies discussed, and interaction with other members of the Intelligence Community, admittedly heavily weighted in favor of the DIA.
It's obviously from movies that you get your information from becuase the NSA is not filled with only super geniouses. Your erroneous sensationalism of the NSA is noted and ignored.
 

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Fair enough.


To bring it back to the OP, I think he is trying to claim that the unrestricted communications of Facebook etc. are enablers of Democracy, and that the NSA program limits the effectiveness of those enablers.

Two points about how very wrong he was:

1. Information derived from programs of the kind he is referring to are not exactly shared with the likes of Egyptian police. They are - you know - sort of "secret".
2. Facebook et. al. do not enable democracy. They enable group action. There is an important difference between "representative government" and "a mob".
I think you are reading it and interpreting it right.
 

cpwill

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It's obviously from movies that you get your information from becuase the NSA is not filled with only super geniouses. Your erroneous sensationalism of the NSA is noted and ignored.
:roll: whatever. You cannot convince those who are not open to the possibility of new information. Obviously the NSA is not 100% super geniuses nor did I ever make that claim. But there is definitely a qualitative difference between their product, and that of DHS.

But hey, you had a neighbor once who had a clearance. Obviously you have vast personal experience in the IC. Please, tell me more.
 

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:roll: whatever. You cannot convince those who are not open to the possibility of new information. Hey, you had a neighbor once. Obviously you have vast personal experience in the IC.
I'm not the one claimiung they are all filled with super nerds, you are. Obviously you think YOU have VAST knowledge on the matter. But continue to elevate the NSA to the point of godhood in your mind. It is quite amusing.
 
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