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Jews have no right to Western Wall, PA 'study' says

donsutherland1

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From today's edition of The Jerusalem Post:

The Western Wall belongs to Muslims and is an integral part of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Haram al-Sharif [the Noble Sanctuary], according to an official paper published on Monday by the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Information in Ramallah.

The paper, which has been presented as a “study,” was prepared by Al-Mutawakel Taha, a senior official with the PA Ministry of Information to “refute” Jews’ claim to the Western Wall.

Jews have no right to Western Wall, PA 'study' says

If, in fact, this is the official Palestinian position, it only provides a fresh indication that the Palestinian Authority is continuing to delegitimize historic/cultural Jewish claims in the region. The Western Wall is among Judaism's holiest sites, so such a position would be a non-starter were the Palestinians to seek a negotiated outcome that strips Israel of jurisdiction over the Western Wall.
 
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Demon of Light

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From today's edition of The Jerusalem Post:



Jews have no right to Western Wall, PA 'study' says

If, in fact, this is the official Palestinian position, it only provides a fresh indication that the Palestinian Authority is continuing to delegitimize historic/cultural Jewish claims in the region. The Western Wall is Judaism's holiest site, so such a position would be a non-starter were the Palestinians to seek a negotiated outcome that strips Israel of jurisdiction over the Western Wall.

Actually looking over it the claims are not particularly off. The wall was part of Herod's Temple, not Solomon's, and a massive portion was in fact added beginning in the 7th Century by Muslims. Since actual control of the Western Wall only changed back to Jewish hands in 1967 as a result of war the claim of ownership by Muslims is actually pretty well-founded.

Also the Western Wall is not the holiest site of Judaism. That would be the Temple Mount itself.
 

CJ 2.0

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Actually looking over it the claims are not particularly off. The wall was part of Herod's Temple, not Solomon's, and a massive portion was in fact added beginning in the 7th Century by Muslims. Since actual control of the Western Wall only changed back to Jewish hands in 1967 as a result of war the claim of ownership by Muslims is actually pretty well-founded.

Also the Western Wall is not the holiest site of Judaism. That would be the Temple Mount itself.

and of course the connection of Islam to the temple mount is wholly tenuous, with absolutely no historical evidence that this is the site of anything that was even remotely involved with Mohammed's life or conquest.

And of course if the Israeli government published a "study" to this effect you would be among the loudest shouting that this is none of the Israeli government's business and that actual histoircal realities are irrelevant.

But whatever. As schollarly and intellectually rigorous as the PA is, I don't really see this to be of much interest, other than the rather obvious point that this is not even remotely the action of a party that is interested in peace and reconcilliation.

But we already knew that...
 

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The Western Wall belongs to Muslims and is an integral part of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Haram al-Sharif [the Noble Sanctuary], according to an official paper published on Monday by the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Information in Ramallah.

It does? :confused:
I guess you learn new things everyday. Does this mean I can now include WW as a part of Al Asqa as Muslim land even tho I care two figs about it and have no idea why it is so apparently important? :roll:
 

Apocalypse

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It was only a matter of time.

Disgusting.
 

Demon of Light

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and of course the connection of Islam to the temple mount is wholly tenuous, with absolutely no historical evidence that this is the site of anything that was even remotely involved with Mohammed's life or conquest.

And of course if the Israeli government published a "study" to this effect you would be among the loudest shouting that this is none of the Israeli government's business and that actual histoircal realities are irrelevant.

I would not object to them stating something that is a fact. Of course, the Western Wall itself is of only tenuous significance by the same argument. It was built by Herod and its significance is primarily due to Jews having been denied access to the Temple Mount since the destruction of the Second Temple. Were they allowed such access it is likely the Western Wall would be of no real significance in Judaism.

But whatever. As schollarly and intellectually rigorous as the PA is, I don't really see this to be of much interest, other than the rather obvious point that this is not even remotely the action of a party that is interested in peace and reconcilliation.

Does the Waqf actually have ownership of the wall? If it does not was that a result of Israel's invasion? I would only consider it indicative of anything if the claims were not true.
 

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Does the Waqf actually have ownership of the wall? If it does not was that a result of Israel's invasion? I would only consider it indicative of anything if the claims were not true.

"The Western Wall belongs to Muslims and is an integral part of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Haram al-Sharif [the Noble Sanctuary], according to an official paper published on Monday by the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Information in Ramallah."

As for the rest of your comment, you just don't get it, but that's fine. It is not up to you to determine whether a people's view of a relic as holy is meritous or not. Herod's temple was treated as wholly in spite of Herod's reputation for being a general douchebag and his having questionable religious credentials (to put it mildly). In spite of all that, this is the last direct connection between the Jewish people and the ancient temple at the core of the temple state built around Jerusalem following the Babylonian exile, and is viewed to be of profound religious significance because of that connection.

But fundamentally, not your call.
 

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Just an observation: I find it very amusing that Muslims insist that Jews have no claim to the Western Wall, while other Muslims insist that they have a right to erect a multi-story mosque/cultural facility in immediate proximity to Ground Zero in NYC.

Is there such a thing as "good faith" when a Muslim deals with an Infidel? The whole world wonders.

Why do Muslims fear Chinese? Because the Chinese don't screw around with game players.
 

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Just an observation: I find it very amusing that Muslims insist that Jews have no claim to the Western Wall, while other Muslims insist that they have a right to erect a multi-story mosque/cultural facility in immediate proximity to Ground Zero in NYC.

Is there such a thing as "good faith" when a Muslim deals with an Infidel? The whole world wonders.

Why do Muslims fear Chinese? Because the Chinese don't screw around with game players.

.... what does the NY Mosque have to do with the Wailing Wall? :doh
 

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I would not object to them stating something that is a fact. Of course, the Western Wall itself is of only tenuous significance by the same argument. It was built by Herod and its significance is primarily due to Jews having been denied access to the Temple Mount since the destruction of the Second Temple. Were they allowed such access it is likely the Western Wall would be of no real significance in Judaism.

Wait, I know little about WW and always assumed it was the first most important site in Judaism.

So basically Jews hold WW important because they aren't allowed full access to Temple Mount? So if Muslims gave it to them, WW would be obsolete?
You seem to know more about this than me, what is the connection between Islam/Al Asqa and Wailing Wall?
 
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The Giant Noodle

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Although I feel religion is a waste of time, I do feel Muslims are up to no good regarding jews.
 

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Its NOT Muslims behind this.

Its Palestinians. Wtf, stop lumping us all in. Incase people have not noticed, Muslims are very diverse. We didn't exactly have a meeting and voted on nicking WW from Jews :roll:
 

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Its NOT Muslims behind this.

Its Palestinians. Wtf, stop lumping us all in. Incase people have not noticed, Muslims are very diverse. We didn't exactly have a meeting and voted on nicking WW from Jews :roll:

Arent Palestinians Muslim? :confused:

And maybe YOU werent invited to that meeting :2razz: :poke
 

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Arent Palestinians Muslim? :confused:

And maybe YOU werent invited to that meeting :2razz: :poke

Yeah I probably weren't invited, can't imagine why. I'm a lovely person :boohoo:

Palestinians are also Christian.
Either way, Arabs make up less than 15% of the Muslim population. Asian and Africans own them on population yet the way people act as if Arabs represent Islam/Muslims. It gets a tad bit annoying sometimes :doh
 

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Yeah I probably weren't invited, can't imagine why. I'm a lovely person :boohoo:

Palestinians are also Christian.
Either way, Arabs make up less than 15% of the Muslim population. Asian and Africans own them on population yet the way people act as if Arabs represent Islam/Muslims. It gets a tad bit annoying sometimes :doh

Don't most Palestinian Christians live in the US instead of Palestine? If that's true, I wonder why?

Arabia holds a special place in Islam. Arabic is the language that Allah used to dictate the literal words of the Holy Quran to the Prophet Mohammed, Peace Be Upon Him.
 

CJ 2.0

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Wait, I know little about WW and always assumed it was the first most important site in Judaism.

So basically Jews hold WW important because they aren't allowed full access to Temple Mount? So if Muslims gave it to them, WW would be obsolete?
You seem to know more about this than me, what is the connection between Islam/Al Asqa and Wailing Wall?

"seem to' is the oeprative phrase here. Wouild respectfully suggest that any appearance of knowledge is purely illusory.
 
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Laila

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Don't most Palestinian Christians live in the US instead of Palestine? If that's true, I wonder why?

Arabia holds a special place in Islam. Arabic is the language that Allah used to dictate the literal words of the Holy Quran to the Prophet Mohammed, Peace Be Upon Him.

No idea. Prove it.

Arabic is a language. :roll:
 

Albert Di Salvo

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No idea. Prove it.

Arabic is a language. :roll:

Laila, please note that I raised the subject in the form of a question. I have nothing to prove because I asked you if you knew the answer to the question. If you don't know the answer that's ok. No harm, no foul.

Arabic is the language of Allah, and His Servant, the Prophet Mohammed, Peace Be Upon His Name. That's one of the reasons why Arabia has a special place in Islam. Makkah is the home of the Kabaa and the holiest sites in Islam. The Arabs were conquerors, and missionaries. If not for the Arabs, no one in the rest of the Muslim world would know the word of Allah.
 

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Laila, please note that I raised the subject in the form of a question. I have nothing to prove because I asked you if you knew the answer to the question. If you don't know the answer that's ok. No harm, no foul.

Arabic is the language of Allah, and His Servant, the Prophet Mohammed, Peace Be Upon His Name. That's one of the reasons why Arabia has a special place in Islam. Makkah is the home of the Kabaa and the holiest sites in Islam. The Arabs were conquerors, and missionaries. If not for the Arabs, no one in the rest of the Muslim world would know the word of Allah.

So? Islam spread through colonialism and spreading Islam. No more than how Christianity spread, especially in Africa. Through colonials coming and enforcing it :shrug: I don't care.

ME houses all 3 holy cities of Islam because that is where Islam originated and the Prophet Mohammed. Arabic is the language it was received, yes. But that doesn't take away the fact Arabs are insignificant in the Muslim population. It is no longer the sole dominion of Arabs but Asians and Africans.
For too long Arabs have assumed Islam was theirs, in the next few decades. It will be us with majority influence over Islam. Not Arabs. Their influence and power is weakening and about time too. Islam will eventually be dominated by Africans and Asians.
 
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CJ 2.0

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So? Islam spread through colonialism and spreading Islam. No more than how Christianity spread, especially in Africa. Through colonials coming and enforcing it :shrug: I don't care.

ME houses all 3 holy cities of Islam because that is where Islam originated and the Prophet Mohammed. Arabic is the language it was received, yes. But that doesn't take away the fact Arabs are insignificant in the Muslim population. It is no longer the sole dominion of Arabs but Asians and Africans.
For too long Arabs have assumed Islam was theirs, in the next few decades. It will be us with majority influence over Islam. Not Arabs. Their influence and power is weakening and about time too. Islam will eventually be dominated by Africans and Asians.

umm, the prohet mohammed had nothing to do with Jerusalem. never controlled it, and visted there. it's only connection to islam is that mohammed first tried to convert Jews to his new faith. Just because Islam originated in the ME does not mean that it had anything to do with Byzantine-controlled Palestina.

And Arabs are not becoming insignificant. Arab petro-dollars are the driving force behind its continued expansion and the spread of wahhabi fundamentalism to muslim populations worldwide. If anything, Arabs are becoming MORE relevant as the Ottomans have become less relevant since the collapse of their empire almost 100 years ago. Prior to that, Islam had been under the effective control of the Ottomans for a very, very long time.

This may be a situation where you are conflating what is actually happening with what you wish to happen. While I wish you well in the pursuit of your efforts, I believe your analysis is, sadly, fundamentally mistaken.
 
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Laila

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umm, the prohet mohammed had nothing to do with Jerusalem. never controlled it, and visted there. it's only connection to islam is that mohammed first tried to convert Jews to his new faith. Just because Islam originated in the ME does not mean that it had anything to do with Byzantine-controlled Palestina.

That has nothing to do with the post I am responding too.

Edit: The only thing Arabs have going for them is that tap and the second it runs dry. They will have no power or influence.
That is why Arabs always try to push the Arab/Israeli conflict from a regional dispute to a religious one. (It happens all the time in my Mosque which has a Arab Imam - "Israelis are killing your Muslim brothers and sisters, it is an Islamic duty under the Qu'ran to repel and oppose Israel and not recognise it ... Prophet Mohammed says ... " *shows pictures of dead Palestinians*. "Look what Israelis are doing to Muslims, they are attacking Islam and wish to destroy it" etc. Many Asians and Africans would give two tosses about Palestinians otherwise. We'd extend the same care to Palestinians that Arabs do us African and Asian Muslim which is zero.

Arabs are losing it, slowly. It helps Israel keeps kicking them whilst they are down naturally and their disposition to fight one another. It also helps that many Arabs are racist against Africans and Asians which leads to many Muslims in both communities to reject Arab opinion :shrug:
I personally can't wait for the day Arabs run out of oil. I'll throw my own party outside.
 
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CJ 2.0

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That has nothing to do with the post I am responding too.

I know, but you mentioned the 3 holiest sitest to Islam all being in the ME as resulting from the fact that Islam came from the ME. I am just pointing out that you have cast your net a bit wide, as Jerusalem had nothing to do with islam until well after it was invented, and geogrpahic proximity to the place of invention (arabia) is not sufficient to pull it into the religion's inherent sphere of infleunce or ownership.
 

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Laila;1059116588[B said:
]...For too long Arabs have assumed Islam was theirs, in the next few decades. It will be us with majority influence over Islam. Not Arabs. Their influence and power is weakening and about time too. Islam will eventually be dominated by Africans and Asians.[/B]

Islam has already gone through it's equivalent of the Protestant Reformation. Islam's Martin Luther is named Osama bin Laden. You will not wrest control of Islam from the Arabs because they will kill you if you try. At best, you would end up like Molly Norris of Seattle.

Hanbali Islam is ascendent. Hanafis, Sufis and the other schools are marginalized. It's as if the Spanish Inquisition took over all of Christianity, and silenced all the other sects.
 
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