Jewish & Christian Holy Days

[doughgirl]

“As for your points (whatever they're supposed to be), I was born to a Jewish mother and a Catholic father. If I choose to post in a thread about religion and the conflicts of such, I can. Last time I looked, this was still the US.”

And if I so choose to post Christian scripture in a thread on the subject I will do just that.

Caine……”At least the dumb ones do.
The smart ones wouldn't bring it up at all.”

Namecalling again………cant ya come up with something better than that Caine….you are so stale. Show some Christian love.......



All Jews do not even keep a Kosher kitchen. Conservative Jews have a more lenient interpretations of the law…and Reformed Jews are even farther apart.

WE both however believe in the same God- a God of holiness, justice, purity, and righteousness. Although we accept the Law given by God through Moses….we believe the Law was fulfilled by Christ.

Separating milk from meat dishes is not scriptural…..Covering the head and washing hands before eating is not scriptural.

Rabbis delegated an enormous amount of authority to themselves (they aren’t even mentioned in scripture) and created a new kind of Judaism based on rules and regulations which they themselves formulate. And the entire Jewish culture defends these ideas though they are hardly scriptural.

Jewish law has departed from the intent of Scripture to the extent that the modern practice is almost incomprehensible when compared to its original form. Exodus 23:19 forbids cooking a baby goat in its mothers milk. Pagans did this cruel practice at that time and that is why Jews were told not to do it. But Jewish leaders have embellished on this command to the point that meat and dairy products cant be served in the same meal or prepared with the same dish. The dishes have to be separate, in different cupboards and in different areas of the house. I know of one Jewish woman who keeps four sets of dishes.

Wearing skull caps is not even scriptural.

“The only Biblical mention of the wearing of hats or turbans for religious purposes is found in the head-gear G-d prescribed for the sons of Aaron. We read in Exodus, “For Aaron’s sons you shall make tunics, and you shall make sashes for them. And you shall make hats [margin, “headpieces or turbans”] for them, for glory and beauty” (Exo.28:40). They were also to wear “linen trousers” (verse 42), reaching from the waist to the thighs. This clothing was to be worn “when they come into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister in the holy place” (v.43).”

This is specifically mentioned as priestly garments – no command that all the children of Israel were to dress in such a manner. The priests were to wear tunics, which were white cotton or linen, with sashes, trousers, and they were to wear turbans, while performing their priestly duties at the Temple. This commandment has no connection what so ever with the Jewish custom of wearing kippahs or yarmulkes, as they are also known!

http://www.lastdaysreporter.com/holy-dress-origin.html

I won't even get into details.....you obviously dont understand "the law" in regards to Christianity so nothing would make sense.

"Ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14 "Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead." Romans 7 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." Galatians 5:18 " Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross." Colossians 2:14

There is no way any Jew or Gentile could follow every law. Especially those about sacrificing in the Temple. some we follow and we were meant to follow, but some we were not.

That is why Christ came. http://www.carmical.net/articles/moses.html

 

[tecoyah]

***Looks like you're a day late, a dollar short, and about 3 'Hail Marys' deficient of having a meaningful Christian discourse/debate. My job here is to spread the word of God, not to analyze the beliefs of an anti-Christ non believer like yourself. If you are truly interested in furthering an understanding of the Bible, I suggest you seek the expertise of the Doughgirl. As you know, my expertise is this political acumen geared to straighten out the anti-American crowd (all liberals) among us. Now if you find yourself at odds with my Conservative ideology, I would be more than willing to engage debate with you on all differing political issues. So far though, it looks like you're a bit confused over having a true political and a true religious identity. Perhaps we could debate or get you to listen to my theories as to why you've become so wishy washy over those two very important ideals. My guess as to why you've become a moderate, a non entity, or agnostic for those two ideals has something to do with your disfunctional upbringing. Am I right here, Tecola?

In other words...you decline this one as well. So Be It.

I think I have now proven to all that you do not wish to participate in anything resembling debate. I have tried on multiple occasions, in several threads to no avail. I am done trying with you, we now return to your regularly scheduled waste of time.

 

[ptsdkid]

In other words...you decline this one as well. So Be It.

I think I have now proven to all that you do not wish to participate in anything resembling debate. I have tried on multiple occasions, in several threads to no avail. I am done trying with you, we now return to your regularly scheduled waste of time.

***Once again, you have failed to comprehend the written word. Only a fool would go to the extremes to prove a non believer to be over his head with religious matters (and I'm no fool). In short, you're a pagan; we have nothing further to discuss concerning religious matters.

Perhaps you weren't aware of how one presents a debatable post. You don't create some scenario and then expect another to go to the extremes of researching history in order to present a debatable post. What a waste of time. That is why I suggested you present a debatable political post, you know, something that you 'may' be more familar with, and one in which perhaps you have a little more knowledge. But again, come up with an issue or topic for debate by using your own words and thoughts as a starter. Don't expect me to make life easy for you by giving into your hypothetical arrangements. You could take a lesson from me by perusing my post about ethnical profiling....y or n?.....so as to get an idea of how to present a debatable topic. Good Luck! Who knows, maybe you'll be able to form a reasonable debate to the aforementioned topic. If so, you'll be the first.

 

[Gibberish]

***Once again, you have failed to comprehend the written word. Only a fool would go to the extremes to prove a non believer to be over his head with religious matters (and I'm no fool). In short, you're a pagan; we have nothing further to discuss concerning religious matters.

It seems you believe only those that believe exactly what you believe have the right to debate with you on your belief's. Wouldn't the world be a boring place if only those that agreed with us were the only ones allowed to join in debate?

Welcome to the real world ptsdkid. Here anyone can debate with you if they so choose. That means some people might not agree with you and you actually have to provide factual statements and not just biased opinions.

 

[ngdawg]

***Once again, you have failed to comprehend the written word. Only a fool would go to the extremes to prove a non believer to be over his head with religious matters (and I'm no fool). In short, you're a pagan; we have nothing further to discuss concerning religious matters.

Perhaps you weren't aware of how one presents a debatable post. You don't create some scenario and then expect another to go to the extremes of researching history in order to present a debatable post. What a waste of time. That is why I suggested you present a debatable political post, you know, something that you 'may' be more familar with, and one in which perhaps you have a little more knowledge. But again, come up with an issue or topic for debate by using your own words and thoughts as a starter. Don't expect me to make life easy for you by giving into your hypothetical arrangements. You could take a lesson from me by perusing my post about ethnical profiling....y or n?.....so as to get an idea of how to present a debatable topic. Good Luck! Who knows, maybe you'll be able to form a reasonable debate to the aforementioned topic. If so, you'll be the first.

And your debatable posts are such because......?
You were asked to present the rules of a one on one debate. You ignored that. All arrangements were on YOUR head. You have been proven over and over you know little of the subject of which you started the OP, claiming the 'knowledge' of a known national bigot and a failed marriage are legit points of experted opinion. You have been challenged by someone who has made the study of religion and his own christian background an obvious point here and elsewhere. You have been challenged by someone who actually knows the rules and protocol of real debate and willing to bend in the direction of someone who doesn't (that'd be you, Kid)
The fact of the matter is, there are people both christian and not who have over and over again proven to know more, follow more and be able to actually shoot down 99% of what you have claimed. Your agenda, however preposterous, has been crystal clear from the gitgo-the whole world, except you, is wrong and liberal.

 

[ptsdkid]

And your debatable posts are such because......?


***My posts are debatable because I present both sides to the debate, thus giving the opposition a chance to counter my views. If you represent the opposition, then it is left to you to show why my views differ than yours. So far, Tecoyah has not represented a viable or opposing position to my religious beliefs. He thinks that by asking me to give my historic view to Christianity--that that in itself somehow gives fodder for religious debate. He and you need to give your reasons for your belief or non belief in God in order for there to be reason enough for debate.


You were asked to present the rules of a one on one debate. You ignored that. All arrangements were on YOUR head. You have been proven over and over you know little of the subject of which you started the OP, claiming the 'knowledge' of a known national bigot and a failed marriage are legit points of experted opinion. You have been challenged by someone who has made the study of religion and his own christian background an obvious point here and elsewhere. You have been challenged by someone who actually knows the rules and protocol of real debate and willing to bend in the direction of someone who doesn't (that'd be you, Kid)

***I don't know what you're talking about concerning rules for debate. It seems to me to be quite obvious that if one person disagrees with another on a political subject, and that person has the desire and wherewithal to continue a debate--then the debate would naturally commence. But you or Tecoyah cannot possibly believe that I avoid debate just because you claim that I hate liberals, so I'm just using that emotion to avoid discourse. How many times do I have to tell you that I don't hate liberals--that I hate liberalism, and the fact that liberals become so sensitive to their own emotionally-run ideology that engaging in meaningful debate almost always becomes an impossibility?


The fact of the matter is, there are people both christian and not who have over and over again proven to know more, follow more and be able to actually shoot down 99% of what you have claimed. Your agenda, however preposterous, has been crystal clear from the gitgo-the whole world, except you, is wrong and liberal.

***What Christian that you know of would shoot down or deny my efforts to spread the word of God? Names please!

 

[Caine]

Namecalling again………cant ya come up with something better than that Caine….you are so stale. Show some Christian love.......

I called nobody here a name. Reguardless, Christians still pick and choose "quotes" as if it makes them look religious. I was watching some show on TV the other day, and this guy was just listing **** off constantly, just the Book/Chapter/Verse, for like 5 minutes, listing things that had stuff to do with a certain topic. I was just wondering what he was doing, if he was trying to impress someone by quoting scripture. Being capable of quoting scripture doesn't make you a christian.

All Jews do not even keep a Kosher kitchen. Conservative Jews have a more lenient interpretations of the law…and Reformed Jews are even farther apart.

This is true. But if christians followed the old testament, don't you think a whole lot of them would? In fact, last I recall, Jesus stated that he was entrusted with making a "new covenant" with god, and that was recorded as the New Testament or something like that.

WE both however believe in the same God- a God of holiness, justice, purity, and righteousness. Although we accept the Law given by God through Moses….we believe the Law was fulfilled by Christ.

No, actually, Jesus attempted to change the law. The reason why Christians say that the Jews killed Jesus, is because they were going to punish him for working on the Sabbath day, as the law states. Yet, Christians over look that when they throw blame at Jews for his death. But that was just a side discussion, and I don't plan on completely derailing the thread with that debate, as its off topic really.

Separating milk from meat dishes is not scriptural…..Covering the head and washing hands before eating is not scriptural.

Funny how its okay to "interpret" something in the bible to fit the needs of the Christians, yet when it comes to, say, this one, Interpretation is bad. Heh. Funny.

Rabbis delegated an enormous amount of authority to themselves (they aren’t even mentioned in scripture) and created a new kind of Judaism based on rules and regulations which they themselves formulate. And the entire Jewish culture defends these ideas though they are hardly scriptural.

No, the temple leaders held the knowledge that was the "Oral Torah" that god passed down to Moses and Moses passed down to Aaron, etc, etc, etc. Of course, that is where the differences lie. Jews believe the Torah to be very holy indeed, but it was only the... the "cliff-notes" so to say of the full law of God. So, no, it doesn't have to be written to have meaning, as we have seen with the Roman Catholic Church throwing out parts of the New Testament that didn't agree with them back in the old days.

Jewish law has departed from the intent of Scripture to the extent that the modern practice is almost incomprehensible when compared to its original form. Exodus 23:19 forbids cooking a baby goat in its mothers milk. Pagans did this cruel practice at that time and that is why Jews were told not to do it. But Jewish leaders have embellished on this command to the point that meat and dairy products cant be served in the same meal or prepared with the same dish. The dishes have to be separate, in different cupboards and in different areas of the house. I know of one Jewish woman who keeps four sets of dishes.

Wearing skull caps is not even scriptural.

Not to you, but those who know of the teachings of the Talmud (the Oral Law that was finally written down due to the forces that eventually created the Jewish diaspora) would say otherwise.

I won't even get into details.....you obviously dont understand "the law" in regards to Christianity so nothing would make sense.

Yes, the law is quite simple. Go to Church, be kind to your neighbor, unless they aren't Christian, then attempt to convert them. Pay the church. Ask forgiveness and all with be forgiven. Love JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESUS, oh yeah, and get pissed off when people take into consideration the other religious holidays surrounding our almighty Christmas and use phrases like "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", cause this is a Christian Nation after all.

"Ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14 "Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead." Romans 7 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." Galatians 5:18 " Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross." Colossians 2:14

Keep on quoting me stuff from a book I don't care to read.

There is no way any Jew or Gentile could follow every law. Especially those about sacrificing in the Temple. some we follow and we were meant to follow, but some we were not.

Your exactly right, due to the fact that people kept blowing up the temple. Oh yeah, why didn't Jesus rebuild the temple like the Messiah was supposed to do????

That is why Christ came. http://www.carmical.net/articles/moses.html

Hey, its your belief not mine.

 

[ngdawg]

But you or Tecoyah cannot possibly believe that I avoid debate just because you claim that I hate liberals, so I'm just using that emotion to avoid discourse.

And yet you have completely avoided the challenge to do so.

How many times do I have to tell you that I don't hate liberals--

So this wasn't you?
I would much rather sharpen my skills by taking pot shots at atheists and liberals. Gun enthusiasts need to stay vigilant of all of America's known enemies, and what two more appropriate enemy...

You're not avoiding discourse, you invite it, you create it. What you avoid is give and take in a rational manner, which was offered to you on your terms.
It's even been pointed out that most, if not all the christian holy days are jewish in origin. You have been either unable to retort because of being unskilled to do so, or you must concede the facts that were presented that they are the same, only before and after the advent of chrisitanity.
The only emotion that has been seen is from you.

 

[doughgirl]

“I think I have now proven to all that you do not wish to participate in anything resembling debate. I have tried on multiple occasions, in several threads to no avail. I am done trying with you, we now return to your regularly scheduled waste of time.”

Oh pleazee. You have tried? Done trying? :rofl

“You have been challenged by someone who has made the study of religion and his own christian background an obvious point here and elsewhere.”

And who would this be? :rofl

“The fact of the matter is, there are people both christian and not who have over and over again proven to know more, follow more and be able to actually shoot down 99% of what you have claimed. Your agenda, however preposterous, has been crystal clear from the gitgo-the whole world, except you, is wrong and liberal.”

And who are the ones claiming this… the pagans who hate Christ and Christians?

Caine said, “I called nobody here a name. Reguardless, Christians still pick and choose "quotes" as if it makes them look religious. I was watching some show on TV the other day, and this guy was just listing **** off constantly, just the Book/Chapter/Verse, for like 5 minutes, listing things that had stuff to do with a certain topic. I was just wondering what he was doing, if he was trying to impress someone by quoting scripture. Being capable of quoting scripture doesn't make you a christian.”

You are right quoting scripture doesn’t make one a Christian. Knowing it, studying it, and making it apart of ones life is however. And pagans who hate Christians are very good at siting scriptures to make what they think are points.

Memorizing scripture has its advantages.


“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 2:14-17)”

“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)”
Unless a person knows and comprehends God's word , they will never be able to obey it. We are commanded to read and study the Bible. We are commanded to pray and meditate and memorize parts of it. Only after doing this will we know it.

Deut 6:6-9

“These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the door-frames of your houses and on your gates”

Deut 11:18

Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Write them on the door-frames of your houses and on your gates, so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land that the LORD swore to give your forefathers, as many as the days that the heavens are above the earth.


Josh 1:8

“Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful”.

“No, actually, Jesus attempted to change the law. The reason why Christians say that the Jews killed Jesus, is because they were going to punish him for working on the Sabbath day, as the law states. Yet, Christians over look that when they throw blame at Jews for his death. But that was just a side discussion, and I don't plan on completely derailing the thread with that debate, as its off topic really.”

Man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ Caine. The law was and is acting as a mirror to show people their sinful nature. It should show someone that they are lost without God. The law doesn’t save someone, only Christ can do that.

“For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” Romans 6:14

“But now we have been delivered form the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newsness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”
Romans 7:6

“For Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Romans 10:4

“Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Galatians 3:25

“by abolishing in the flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace….”
Ephesians 2:15

 

[doughgirl]

And Christians do not necessarliy believe it was the Jews that killed Jesus. Jesus allowed himself to be killed. You don’t think the Son of Man could have done anything He wanted to free himself? Mary could have freed Him, but she knew who He was and what He came to do.
Pilate ordered the unjust execution and the Roman troops carried it out. Who was really responsible?
Is justice only served if we place blame on someone? Our justice is not Gods.
Man is to blame for Jesus’s death. Mans sin. That is the reason He died.
Mankind was responsible.

Let us not forget that Jesus said, “I lay down my life-only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of MY OWN ACCORD. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

“Funny how its okay to "interpret" something in the bible to fit the needs of the Christians, yet when it comes to, say, this one, Interpretation is bad. Heh. Funny.’

You just don’t understand the purpose of the “law”.

“Not to you, but those who know of the teachings of the Talmud (the Oral Law that was finally written down due to the forces that eventually created the Jewish diaspora) would say otherwise.”

There is nothing in the OT that talks about having to wear them. It is not scriptural.

“Yes, the law is quite simple. Go to Church, be kind to your neighbor, unless they aren't Christian, then attempt to convert them. Pay the church. Ask forgiveness and all with be forgiven. Love JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESUS, oh yeah, and get pissed off when people take into consideration the other religious holidays surrounding our almighty Christmas and use phrases like "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", cause this is a Christian Nation after all.”

That is not law. Those you site are man made laws. We are commanded to try to teach those who don’t know the word…….

You mock Christ in your every words. Funny how pagans out of the kind and loving spirits they possess........love to mock. You think it gives you power. The Holy Spirit gives power.........

And I am kind to everyone I meet whether Christian or not. Pagans just like to use this excuse however to slam at Christians.

And you are so so wrong. This is anything but a Christian nation anymore. We have become a secular nation. Nothing Christian about it.


My inlaws are Jewish and I wish them Happy Hanakkah. They wish me Merry Christmas.

“Keep on quoting me stuff from a book I don't care to read.”

How you going to debate unless you know scripture whether you believe it or not? That’s why I read the Koran, so I would know somewhat what I was talking about.

And you love to debate anything Christian Caine. You seem to lurk around the threads where you can get your two cents in about how Christians should be hated..........It really shows the true love you have in your heart for people who are different than yourself.......

“Hey, its your belief not mine.’

Oh that’s quite obvious. :rofl

 

[ngdawg]

I wasn't addressing, you, Doughgirl, so it's not your concern. Neither was Tecoyah.
Caine hasn't shown hate for anyone. He's shown amazing constraint, under the circumstances.
You seem to label anyone who doesn't agree with you 'pagan'. I'm not sure you even know what that is....:roll:

Those you site are man made laws

Which is the entire bible, new and old testaments. Even the gospel wasn't written by any first eye witness.

 

[ptsdkid]

I wasn't addressing, you, Doughgirl, so it's not your concern. Neither was Tecoyah.
Caine hasn't shown hate for anyone. He's shown amazing constraint, under the circumstances.
You seem to label anyone who doesn't agree with you 'pagan'. I'm not sure you even know what that is....:roll:


***Tell us your description of a 'pagan' and we'll take it from there to see if you're close or not. You've already proven to be a 'pagan' by the reading of your posts, but please induldge us some more with your anti Christ rhetoric so that we'll know for certain.

 

[Caine]

You are right quoting scripture doesn’t make one a Christian. Knowing it, studying it, and making it apart of ones life is however. And pagans who hate Christians are very good at siting scriptures to make what they think are points.

Yes, but when you run around calling everyone who does something a sinner and are boastful about your righteousness, then get caught doing some of the very same things that you talked down to other about, it doesn't make you look like you were making it a part of thier life does it? Strangely, this does not seem to happen to anyone but Christians, as nobody else makes a spectacle of being righteous, I do believe your Gospels does mention something about making a spectacle of your prayer and your good deeds, sadly, many christians ignore that lesson.

Memorizing scripture has its advantages.

And sadly, when christians use scripture to back up how righteous thier actions are, they forget that they are leaving themselves a giant hole for others to poke at, since the New Testament contradicts the Old Testament, those who are being condemned for not being christian can only fight back with that. :2razz:

“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)”

Unless a person knows and comprehends God's word , they will never be able to obey it. We are commanded to read and study the Bible. We are commanded to pray and meditate and memorize parts of it. Only after doing this will we know it.

And thus, it is one of the Mitzvot to study TORAH. I like how whatever version you used replaced the word Torah with Bible. It appears to me as if Christians are trying to change the meaning of Deuteronomy.

Deut 6:6-9

“These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the door-frames of your houses and on your gates”

And this, is where the commandment to affix the Mezuzah to the entrance to your home comes into play. Of course, because it doesn't say it word for word, christians ignore it, yet in the New Testament, they tend to be a bit more lenient with the strictness of their interpretations.

Deut 11:18

Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Write them on the door-frames of your houses and on your gates, so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land that the LORD swore to give your forefathers, as many as the days that the heavens are above the earth.

And this is where Jews get the Mitzvot to wear Tefillin, which is not the popular kippah or yarmulke, but they are little cases which contain 4 small parchments of scripture and a leather band which one is to wear on his head, arm, and hand. Although this isn't done that often anymore.

Man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ Caine. The law was and is acting as a mirror to show people their sinful nature. It should show someone that they are lost without God. The law doesn’t save someone, only Christ can do that.

This is your religion Doughgirl, not mine. I reject Jesus Christ as my savior, nothing personal to you, or to him. I just don't believe. Of course, not im being mean spirited right? Thats what is wrong, nobody is allowed to reject Jesus as thier personal savior without being hateful towards Christianity. Im acting hateful towards christianity only because I see those Christians like you and PTSDKid as a threat to religious freedom. Those who feel the need to pressure others to convert, and then attempt to condem them for having a belief other than thier own.

“

 

[Caine]

And Christians do not necessarliy believe it was the Jews that killed Jesus. Jesus allowed himself to be killed. You don’t think the Son of Man could have done anything He wanted to free himself? Mary could have freed Him, but she knew who He was and what He came to do.
Pilate ordered the unjust execution and the Roman troops carried it out. Who was really responsible?
Is justice only served if we place blame on someone? Our justice is not Gods.
Man is to blame for Jesus’s death. Mans sin. That is the reason He died.
Mankind was responsible.

Okay. But you know what is funny, if Jesus really was god like everyone says, then Jesus the man is to blame for his own death, I mean, he knew not to work miracles on the sabbath. He knew he ordered the Israelites to kill anyone who does work on the sabbath. So, he is to blame. (No offense to your savior)

You just don’t understand the purpose of the “law”.

Fine, go tell the jews that, since your a know it all, know more than over five thousand years of Jewish history and customs.

There is nothing in the OT that talks about having to wear them. It is not scriptural.

Its not scriptural. There is no mitzvot to wear kippah, its a traditional custom. Yes.. a custom, something that christianity lacks, which makes it less intresting, to me. Besides, scripture is over rated, like ngdawg said, all of the gospels were written by people who were not actually present when the events they described take place, thats obvious from all the contradictions in the story.

That is not law. Those you site are man made laws. We are commanded to try to teach those who don’t know the word…….

No, I just tried to sum up the way that a christian is to practice christianity.

You mock Christ in your every words. Funny how pagans out of the kind and loving spirits they possess........love to mock. You think it gives you power. The Holy Spirit gives power.........

I wouldnt know much about pagans, but from what I have seen, pagans only mock when the christians mock first. You know that pagans are more tolerant of christianity, as long as christians don't judge them first, which they almost ALWAYS do, and its out of ignorance of that pagan's religious belief, and the christian ignorance of "PAGAN = SATAN WORSHIPPER!"

And I am kind to everyone I meet whether Christian or not. Pagans just like to use this excuse however to slam at Christians.

And yet you are telling me I am wrong because I don't believe in the Christ.

My inlaws are Jewish and I wish them Happy Hanakkah. They wish me Merry Christmas.

Do you wish them a happy hanukkah right after you demand that they convert? or before? Is that what you did to thier poor son, demanded that he convert?

How you going to debate unless you know scripture whether you believe it or not? That’s why I read the Koran, so I would know somewhat what I was talking about.

I debate the inconsistencies. I get all the info I need from Anti-Missionary websites.

And you love to debate anything Christian Caine. You seem to lurk around the threads where you can get your two cents in about how Christians should be hated..........It really shows the true love you have in your heart for people who are different than yourself.......

Nah, you are wrong, if christians wouldn't demand that everyone pay moral tribute to them, I wouldn't be having this discussion. But most christians around here who bring up the religion and speak of it the way you do are only condeming others because being christian must be better than anything else. :roll:

Oh that’s quite obvious. :rofl

Thanks for proving my point. You laugh at me sarcastically, because I made it obvious Im not a christian. Instead of acting as if you accept that I have different beliefs than you.

 

[ngdawg]

I wasn't addressing, you, Doughgirl, so it's not your concern. Neither was Tecoyah.
Caine hasn't shown hate for anyone. He's shown amazing constraint, under the circumstances.
You seem to label anyone who doesn't agree with you 'pagan'. I'm not sure you even know what that is....:roll:


***Tell us your description of a 'pagan' and we'll take it from there to see if you're close or not. You've already proven to be a 'pagan' by the reading of your posts, but please induldge us some more with your anti Christ rhetoric so that we'll know for certain.

Pagan is a catch-all phrase for any belief that doesn't embrace bible scripture, particularly the new testament. It is also used to describe those of any belief unlike one's own. To Christians, Jews can be considered 'pagan' as can be Buddhists.
It's used by some to describe their non-christian beliefs because it's easier than saying they're of a particular belief that would then need defending or explaining.
Of course, you could look up the definition yourself, but I'm sure whatever comes up, you'd disagree with.

 

[doughgirl]

“Which is the entire bible, new and old testaments. Even the gospel wasn't written by any first eye witness.”

Its so amazing that one mans life could capture the world like it has. The single fact that Jesus has influenced this world more than anyone who has ever lived should be sufficient to establish His unique place in human history. And He did it all in about a span of three years. Incredible. He was only a son of a carpenter.....Had no material possessions, not even a place to call home..... Was not educated..... Not a world traveler ...in fact he never even traveled more than 100 miles from his home. He spent His entire life in the tiny land of Israel. Had no influencial friends….just ordinary street people. He wasnt loved by everyone...many hated Him.

How did he do it? He lived over 2000 years ago. No one even comes close to the power that Christ has had over the world. Even as an unbeliever you cant ignore the effect Christ has had on human history. Why?

Tell me guys how did he do it? Everyone who believed in Him…were they all idiots? If you say yes, then you are calling most of humanity that has ever lived idiots.

Why if He was nothing… do the majority of people on earth worship Him? Why haven’t people just forgotten Him?

Just take a look at the disciples. Jesus absolutely transformed their lives. Most of them were tortured beyond belief, and they faced death by the cruelest of methods. I wonder why? Why would they die for something they knew was a lie? I think only John died naturally. Most the others were crucified…or either killed by the sword or arrows. One was stoned to death.

Incredible.

http://www.josh.org/easter4.asp

 

[doughgirl]

Caine said, “boastful about your righteousness”

That is a lie. You post where I have praised myself. Post where I have boasted about how better I am than anyone else. Because I have not. I have been honest about the sin in my life and I am the first to call myself a sinner on here.
I do not deserve forgiveness. But God by His grace has forgiven me.


First of all you are right in a way. I can't make action judgments about non-christians because you do not have the Holy Spirit in you. You do not understand.

“For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”
1 Corinthians 5.12-13

Here Paul says….we do judge those in the church but those outside of Christianity are not to be held to the same standard because they don’t understand. I can point out sin to those outside of the church, but I am not to judge what they do, for “those who are outside, God judges.

Christians on the other hand should hold each other accountable.

“This is your religion Doughgirl, not mine. I reject Jesus Christ as my savior, nothing personal to you, or to him. I just don't believe. Of course, not im being mean spirited right? Thats what is wrong, nobody is allowed to reject Jesus as thier personal savior without being hateful towards Christianity. Im acting hateful towards christianity only because I see those Christians like you and PTSDKid as a threat to religious freedom. Those who feel the need to pressure others to convert, and then attempt to condem them for having a belief other than thier own.”

It is not about religion Caine. It is all about a relationship. I have accepted Christ and have entered into a RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. Its not about religion or it shouldn’t be to one who has a Christian worldview. You live the relationship at all times. God gave you free will to either accept Him or reject Him. I do not hate you for this decision. We live by the decisions that we make in life; you will live with yours, I will live with mine.
I do not understand how you think I am denying anyone the right to choose what they believe however. I have pressured no one here to accept Christ. I share the gospel……….I enter the debates by sharing my opinions.

I don’t understand why you... who reject God…..are so defensive towards those who wish you no harm. I have no hate in my heart for anyone who rejects Christ. I might pray for them…….but I don’t have an ounce of hate in my heart for anyone.
I have family members who are not even believers. My inlaws are Jews…….its their decision.

How have I condemned you? I’m not who you should worry about.

“Yes.. a custom, something that christianity lacks, which makes it less intresting, to me. Besides, scripture is over rated, like ngdawg said, all of the gospels were written by people who were not actually present when the events they described take place, thats obvious from all the contradictions in the story.”

First of all I believe she is not a Christian or so she doesn’t claim to be one. So its not surprising that she would think this way.

 

[doughgirl]

Eye witnesses…….

The Gospels report that the day the tomb was found empty Jesus started seeing people. Woman were the first to see Christ alive. But Jesus also appeared to His male disciples. So I don’t know where you get this idea that there were no witnesses….He appeared to them in groups and individually over a period of time.
If memory serves me right….Pauls list in 1 Corinthians 15 provides independent confirmation of the appearances recounted in narrative detail by the writers of the Gospels and Acts.

Peter was the first to experience seeing Jesus as did James.

Jesus greeted the disciples with the words, “Peace be with you”
Luke 24:36….John 20:19, 26

Jesus invited His disciples to inspect His hands and even to touch Him. (Luke 24:39-40……John 20:20, 27

No witnesses????????

Jesus ate fish with the disciples. Luke 24:41-43…John 21:9-15

Luke and John both present independent accounts that testify to Jesus’ materiality.

No witnesses????????

The Gospel accounts of Jesus’ appearances provide independent testimonies to the belief by the experiences of the first Jewish followers of Jesus, that Jesus had been raised from the dead.

Eye witnesses………Yes there were many.
I again mention the apostles because I find it so incredible how their
lives were changed. Funny that after Jesus was arrested they all forsook Him and fled. (John 20:19)
John 20:19 says that they even hid behind doors hiding from the Jewish religious leaders. This picture shows men who were scared to death. Peter denied Christ three times to protect his own life.
But man something really powerful happened to all of them. What happened to them to make them devoted followers of Christ? What made them take the chance of being imprisoned by spreading the Gospel message? Gee I wonder if it was witnessing the resurrection?

Because not long after Christ rose……they were out on the road claiming that Jesus was the Son of God. Hmmm they no longer feared death and history shows that no amount of persecution could silence them.
Who would willingly die for a cause they know is false, not true?

Would you? Would you be willing to be crucified upside down.......for a lie?

Who would be willing to forfeit their families, their financial security their jobs………and instead lead a life filled with persecution and ridicule and eventually death?

Pagan the definition?


A pagan at the least one dictionary defines it as….One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
1. One who has no religion.
2. A non-Christian.
3. A hedonist.
4. A Neo-Pagan.

“I wouldnt know much about pagans, but from what I have seen, pagans only mock when the christians mock first. You know that pagans are more tolerant of christianity, as long as christians don't judge them first, which they almost ALWAYS do, and its out of ignorance of that pagan's religious belief, and the christian ignorance of "PAGAN = SATAN WORSHIPPER!"

You are not a Christian, right?. So you tell me by this dictionaries definition are you a pagan?

You put words in our mouths. I have never called anyone a satan worshipper. Man oh man…….that is coming from something inside you not me.

“And yet you are telling me I am wrong because I don't believe in the Christ.”

Do you think you are wrong?
You are trying to convince me however that I am wrong. Right?

I believe everyone is wrong that doesnt accept Christ. So what? You think I am wrong. Am I not entitled to have an opinion?

“Do you wish them a happy hanukkah right after you demand that they convert? or before? Is that what you did to thier poor son, demanded that he convert?”

Ya know you are the one here with the problem.

Their poor son? :rofl

Their poor son loves me and treats me with kindness and respect. Why?
Because I put him second right behind God. He is my husband and he happens to be head of the household. I treat him like a prince. I do what God commands me to do.........and its easy.

You got issues man. Your defensive to the point that its ridiclous. My husband is not a believer. My son is not a believer. My daughter is a believer. They all made up their own minds. They live their lives…..they make their own decisions……they will live with their own decisions. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR SALVATION. I live my life as a Christian………and that is that. I pray for them……I love them…..and I leave the rest up to God.
Just because they are not believers... that fact doesnt let me off the hook as to living a godly life as a wife and mother. My son sees the joy I have in my heart and how I live my life and I see him changing. I don’t have to say or do one thing. He knows. He sees. I planted the seed………its up to God.

You got issues. Wow. :shock:

“Thanks for proving my point. You laugh at me sarcastically, because I made it obvious Im not a christian. Instead of acting as if you accept that I have different beliefs than you.”

I laugh because you are so defensive that its sad. Wahtever made you like this? Youre like a wounded animal that needs comfort from something but you don’t know what. You seem so angry. I pray for you Caine and that fact alone will make you angry. I pray God will soften your heart one day to his word.

 

[Caine]

That is a lie. You post where I have praised myself.

I wasn't speaking about you hun.

Christians on the other hand should hold each other accountable.

Yes, so why do so many christians follow and praise the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. Falwell had a long *** video/song that he played during one of his "Live at Liberty" shows lately (it comes on after the news when im ironing my uniforms and too lazy to turn the channel) and this song, I can't remember how it went, but it was a song I remember singing in church (yes, I went to christian church too at one time), and yet, the video was showing Falwell throughout the whole ordeal, when the original words of the song were supposed to be talking about Jesus, instead it was showing clips of Falwell doing things right as the song mentioned them, it was as if they made a music video of a song about Jesus to try to make it out to be a song about Falwell. Im not even a Christian, and that pissed me off to no end. More good hearted true christians should speak out about the likes of Falwell, he is no good for christianity, and since he and his buddies serve as a public image, thus christianity looks bad.

Im certain your getting the wrong Idea that I hate Christians. I have many christian friends, those who are serious about thier religion, and I have no problem with them, because they do not attempt to convert me or tell me I am wrong for not believing. I have been invited to thier church on occasion, like, when they ask me what Im doing for such and such holiday, and I say, "nothing".

I do not understand how you think I am denying anyone the right to choose what they believe however. I have pressured no one here to accept Christ.

Im sorry if I offended, you, but you have come across as one of those types of "Born Again" christians. Ive only known a few in my lifetime, and none of them have been tolerant of those who don't accept Jesus.

I don’t understand why you... who reject God…..are so defensive towards those who wish you no harm.

Whoah, Whoah, Whoah! Who said I reject God? I don't accept him in the form of a Man come down to earth, but I don't Reject GOD himself. Just Jesus.

First of all I believe she is not a Christian or so she doesn’t claim to be one. So its not surprising that she would think this way.

Im confused, what she are you talking about?

 

[ngdawg]

Eye witnesses………Yes there were many.

I said the gospels were NOT WRITTEN by any eye witnesses. Please pay attention.:roll:

 

[::Major_Baker::]

holy days, schmoly days.
you guys are fruits.

 

[Gibberish]

Doughgirl, first you say

Woman were the first to see Christ alive.

And then a few lines later you say

Peter was the first to experience seeing Jesus as did James.

Which is it? Was Peter the first to see Jesus or was Mary Magadelene? According to Mark 16:9 it was Mary.

According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 Christ appeared to Peter, then to the Twelve, then to five hundred brethren at one time, then to James, then to all the apostles, and lastly to Paul. These sightings happend over a period of weeks and no women saw Jesus according to Paul.

Doughgirl, you talk as if giving the impression the gospels were written from eye-witness accounts. They were written 50-200 years later by men who heard the story from their teachers who heard the stories from either someone that was there or someone that knows someone that was there.

This is a possible order in which Jesus reveleaed himself, no one can be sure:

1. Mary Magdalene saw Him on the Sunday morning following the Crucifixion (Mark 16:9; John 20:14-18).
2. Several other women saw Him a short while later (Matt. 28:9-10).
3. On the same Sunday, He appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34; 1 Cor. 15:5).
4. Two disciples on the road to Emmaus saw Him late Sunday afternoon (Mark 16:12-13; Luke 24:13-32).
5. In the evening of the same day, He came to the eleven remaining disciples (excepting Thomas) as they met in the Upper Room (Mark 16:14; Luke 24:36-48; John 20:19-23; 1 Cor. 15:5).
6. He came again to the Eleven eight days later—that is, on the next Sunday (John 20:26-30).
7. After His disciples returned to Galilee, seven of them met Him on the shore of the sea (John 21:1-22).
8. He appeared in Galilee to a gathering of more than five hundred followers (Matt. 28:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:6).
9. Sometime in the next few weeks, He revealed Himself to His brother James (1 Cor. 15:7).
10. Six weeks after the Resurrection, at the time of His ascension to heaven, He was seen by approximately 120 people, including the Eleven. He met them in Jerusalem and led them out along the road to Bethany until, as they were crossing the Mount of Olives, they came within sight of the town (3). Then, after admonishing them to evangelize the whole world, He rose into the clouds (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-19; Luke 24:49-53; Acts 1:4-15; 1 Cor. 15:7).

 

[doughgirl]

“Yes, so why do so many christians follow and praise the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. Falwell had a long *** video/song that he played during one of his "Live at Liberty" shows lately (it comes on after the news when im ironing my uniforms and too lazy to turn the channel) and this song, I can't remember how it went, but it was a song I remember singing in church (yes, I went to christian church too at one time), and yet, the video was showing Falwell throughout the whole ordeal, when the original words of the song were supposed to be talking about Jesus, instead it was showing clips of Falwell doing things right as the song mentioned them, it was as if they made a music video of a song about Jesus to try to make it out to be a song about Falwell. Im not even a Christian, and that pissed me off to no end. More good hearted true christians should speak out about the likes of Falwell, he is no good for christianity, and since he and his buddies serve as a public image, thus christianity looks bad.”

Well I haven’t heard it and I haven’t seen it so I can’t make comment on it. I honestly don’t know that much about Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. I don’t really listen to talk radio and… believe it or not, I don’t watch the 700 club. I read a lot and mainly listen to those evangelists that I like…. Ravi Zacharius, Lee Strobel, Zola Levitt, John Hagee, Tim Lahaye, Franklin Graham, James Kennedy…

If the video is like you say, all about Falwell and not about Christ, I’d have a problem with it. That is why I really don’t care for a few high profile preachers who I wont name… they come off as being more about themselves and their sermons are just luke warm feel good sermons. They write a book a week and well.....

I am curious however that if you are not a Christian why it would make you mad? Why would you even care?

You are 100% right when you say that more Christians should speak up. They should speak up about many issues like abortion. :rofl Ok I wont bring that up here. I need a rest from the subject.

But its true and it shows, that today, Christians are more affected by society than society is affected by Christians. Why?
IMO its because the majority of people who call themselves Christian fail to think like Jesus, they think like the rest of the world. They lack personal commitment and depth of faith that makes them truly changed, God driven beings. Ones worldview does makes a difference and IMO few Americans anymore possess a biblical worldview, most are immersed in daily exercises of covert training via mass media, public school education, Internet, television, radio, music….This contradicts Gods perfect and eternal moral and spiritual code that was designed to make our relationships with Him stronger.

You might wonder what I mean by “worldview”….A biblical worldview would be one in which a person believes that the Bible is the moral standard, believes that absolute moral truths exist and are conveyed through the Bible…. and the person possesses an appropriate point of view regarding certain beliefs. ( God all knowing all powerful God, Jesus lived a sinful life, Satan is a real living entity, salvation cant be earned, personal relationship with Christ, Bible is Gods word….etc)

I just read a very interesting book by George Barna, called “Think Like Jesus.” In September of 2002 the Barna Research group of Ventura California conducted a survey based on random sampling of 630 adults throughout the 48 continental states. The purpose, was to look at the impact of a biblical worldview upon Christians in comparison to other Christians who did not possess a biblical worldview.

His findings didn’t surprise me one bit.

“85% of American’s born-again adults do not possess either the foundations or the beliefs to qualify as having a biblical worldview.
91% of all born again adults do not have a biblical worldview
98% of all born again teenagers do not have a biblical worldview.

As of 2003, the United States has about 210 adults. About 175 million of them CLAIM to be Christian. About 80 million are born again Christians. Roughly 7 million have a biblical worldview.
Christians who have a biblical worldview are 9 times more likely than all other people to avoid adult-only materials on the Internet, 4 times more likely as nonbelievers to boycott objectionable companies or products, and not to view a questionable movie or video because of its objectionable content.”

IMO the majority of people who profess to be Christian are Christian in name only. They do not make their moral and ethical choices on the basis of the Bible, and the Bible has little influence on them because they rarely pick it up to read it. and if they dont pick it up to read it, how do they meditate on scripture? How do they know what God says about anything?

“Im sorry if I offended, you, but you have come across as one of those types of "Born Again" christians. Ive only known a few in my lifetime, and none of them have been tolerant of those who don't accept Jesus.”

No problem, you just seem so defensive.

I am “born again”. By born again I mean…….I have accepted Christ as my personal savior and have entered into a relationship with Him. As for tolerance. I tolerate a lot of things I do not like, especially those circumstances I can’t control. But if I am in control, then I choose not to tolerate what bothers me.

I have a lot of friends who are different faiths. I had mentioned that my inlaws were Jewish. I should correct myself somewhat They were born Jews….neither have ever practiced their faith, in fact my father in law told me the other day that he was an atheist.

“Whoah, Whoah, Whoah! Who said I reject God? I don't accept him in the form of a Man come down to earth, but I don't Reject GOD himself. Just Jesus.”

So how do you know there is a God? and what does your god say?

 

[tecoyah]

So how do you know there is a God? and what does your god say?

Probably the same way you do......Faith. The difference between yourself Doughgirl, and most Christians is not one of accepting God. It is trying to understand those other things in this reality we deal with everyday, while you ignore them for the most part....others are curious and try to "See".

 

[ptsdkid]

Probably the same way you do......Faith. The difference between yourself Doughgirl, and most Christians is not one of accepting God. It is trying to understand those other things in this reality we deal with everyday, while you ignore them for the most part....others are curious and try to "See".

***You still don't get it Tecoyah. Doughgirl (with the aid of God) gets to deal with these 'other things' in everyday life a lot better than do you pagans, because she approaches 'other things' with a smile on her face knowing that she is backed up with the truth on her side. Pretty simple really.