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Jesus

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what flaws do u find in his teachings?

im just kind of in that arguing mode today
 

Kandahar

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He was a big ***** when it came to fighting his oppressors.
 
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and this is wrong because...........

shoudnt we learn to love our enemies rather than hurt, main, or kill them
 

Kandahar

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i believe in tranquility said:
and this is wrong because...........

shoudnt we learn to love our enemies rather than hurt, main, or kill them
Depends why they're our enemies. If they're going to hurt, maim, or kill me, I'm going to do everything in my power to hurt, maim, or kill them first.

Jesus disagreed, and look what it got him...
 
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Jesus's purpose for passive resistance was not to accept beatings, but to respond to them in a peaceful manner. Doing so lets the "enemy" know what they have done....look what happened after "what got him", the people realized what they have done.
 

kal-el

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i believe in tranquility said:
what flaws do u find in his teachings?
Where do you want I begin?:lol: Well, first off, he was mendacious liar.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry at his brother, will be subject to judgement. Again, anyone who says to his brother, "Raca" is answerable to the Sanehedrin. But anyone who says, "You fool!" will be in danger of the fire of hell.
I believe that message was crystal clear. Jesus cleary states that anyone who calls another "fool" will go to hell. But, the inanimate carpenter is quite the hypocrite:

Luke 11:40
You foolish people! Did not the one that made the outside make the inside also?
Matthew 23:17
You blind fools! Which is greater, the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
Jesus himself was speaking these words, but the sky cadet is guilty of referring to his creation as fools as well:

Luke 12:20
But god said to him, "You fool!" This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?
O, I almost forgot. Jesus promises rewards in prayer:

Matthew 21:21
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
John 14:14
If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given to you.
Mark 11:24
Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Wow. Either he is blatanly pontificicating magnifications, or he is a wack-job, and really thinks he's speaking the truth.:lol: And before anyone says that you must be reasonable about what you pray for, that's laughable, as Jesus clearly places no boundaries on what you may pray for.
 
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I believe that message was crystal clear. Jesus cleary states that anyone who calls another "fool" will go to hell. But, the inanimate carpenter is quite the hypocrite
"go to hell"...he says DANGER of going to hell, just as if you kill someone you are in DANGER to going to hell.

His references to prayer are related towards faith in God, faith in prayer, faith in trust..these you might view as absurd, but for quite a few people that have faith in God and Jesus this is more than just: if you want something, say it and I will rbing it to you"....if more like: If you want your friends who is ill to heal, ask and have faith in your asking of that request, or something in that sort.


I dont know man, its just my view, as you probably have no respect for it, but it matters not. I have faith that what you say comes from your honest perecptions and beliefs of what you have experienced, so my graditude is towards you for your humble response.
 

kal-el

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i believe in tranquility said:
"go to hell"...he says DANGER of going to hell, just as if you kill someone you are in DANGER to going to hell.
Right, and yet the defunct carpenter says "you fool" twice in scripture, but he tells others not to do it, or else they'll be in danger of hell. Don't tell others to do something that you're not willing to do. BTW, when's the last time you moved a mountain?

Matthew 21:21
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, "Go throw yourself into the sea" and it will be done."
Jesus explicitly states that if you believe, if you have faith, you can move a mountain. There is no way to dance around this. The bible denotes parables in the heading of each passage. This heading is "the fig tree withers", not the "parable of the withering fig tree."

His references to prayer are related towards faith in God, faith in prayer, faith in trust..these you might view as absurd, but for quite a few people that have faith in God and Jesus this is more than just: if you want something, say it and I will rbing it to you"....if more like: If you want your friends who is ill to heal, ask and have faith in your asking of that request, or something in that sort.
Are you one of those people who think Jesus was god? Cause the carpenter seems confused. If you say he was, then he is a sadistic, bloodthirsty, egotistical, emotionally insecure, lying, hypocritical diety. If he wasn't, and he was god's son, if this god is all-knowing, he would know that Jesus would suffer torture and be killed, yet did not prevent it, or couldn't.

I dont know man, its just my view, as you probably have no respect for it, but it matters not.
Actually, if you are Christian, you are beating the odds, as all the Christians I ran into on this forum are extremely judgemental. It seems they already have preconceived opinions, and everybody else is wrong. Thus far, you have not been judgemental. Kudos to you.:2razz:
 
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well no im not one of "those people" who beilve Jesus IS God, because he says he is the SON of God...its really that simple for me.


and Yes god did know his son was going to suffer, thats kind of the WHOLE idea of God's Son sacfricing himself for our sins...without that, the whole idea of Christianity would not be what it is.



and yes i realize that the majority of christians are EXTREMELY judgemental, homophobic, the list goes on, and yes im different from those kinf of Christians, thats why my religion does not say christianity.
 

kal-el

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i believe in tranquility said:
well no im not one of "those people" who beilve Jesus IS God, because he says he is the SON of God...its really that simple for me.
Yes, and he also say this:
John 10:38-39
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the father is in me, and I, in the father.
and Yes god did know his son was going to suffer, thats kind of the WHOLE idea of God's Son sacfricing himself for our sins...without that, the whole idea of Christianity would not be what it is.
If he is all powerful, why would he have to sacrifice a carpenter to cleanse any sins? I would think an omnipotent entity could just snap its fingers and do away with sin. Why the drawn out anguish?


thats why my religion does not say christianity.
I don't believe the profile section prompts anyone on their religious preference.
 

kal-el

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i believe in tranquility said:
Oh man thats funny...

im getting mixed up with sites: i thought i was on www.religiousforums.com

my fault.
Wow, that seems like a pretty cool forum, I would join, but debate politics pretty much eats up my free time.
 

kal-el

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According to Jesus, you cannot divorce your wife for any other reason than unfaithfulness, or else you're committing adultery. And if you committ adultery, you won't go to the sky fortress:

Matthew 19:17-18
Why do you ask me about what is good? Jesus replied. There is only one who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments. "Which ones?" The man inquired. Jesus replied, Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.
So even if you no longer get along with your wife, you hate eachother, and by this, make eachother's lives miserable, you cannot seperate if you intend on going to heaven.
 
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I dont know anybody that marries or divorces based on their "going" to heaven.

You have to look at the setting and time period to understand why Jesus is saying what he is saying. This is an example of him radicalizing the laws of the OT. At the time women had no rights on divorce, so Jesus obviously thought this was extreely bias. At the time, if a man wanted to divorce, he simply could, and that woman would be viewed as ugly, sinfull, used, disguting, etc. Jesus said that the men were being completely irresponsible. That is why he dispises divorce so much. Jesus was protecting the women in this case.

Thats kind of why it is RECOMENDED not to marry, but if nature takes a hold of you, then by all means dont hold back your godgiven nature.
 

kal-el

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i believe in tranquility said:
I dont know anybody that marries or divorces based on their "going" to heaven.
Then they're not followers of Christ. He clearly states that if you divorce for any other reason other than unfaihfulness, you are commiting adultery, and to reach heaven you must not commit adultery.

You have to look at the setting and time period to understand why Jesus is saying what he is saying.
Are you saying the bible is irrelevant to everyday life? :lol: It's reletively easy to see how it can be irrelevant today because it was written in Hebrew and Greek, and in a different place and time period. The issues the bible addresses are still the fundamental issues of life today. There's usually a list of topics that may interest you in the back of every bible. From finding help when you need it to how to deal with anger.

This is an example of him radicalizing the laws of the OT.
Actually, he never changed the commandments. He might have altered and radicalized the laws the Pharisees were living by, but he upheld the OT laws.
"Do as they say, but not as they do" Haha, Jesus had an oppurtunistic time during his teaching to condemn slavery, but instead he seems to not only condone it, but slaves' beating as well:

Luke 12:47-48
That servant who knows his masters will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with a few blows.
Hard to swallow that this diatribe came out of such a peaceful man.

At the time women had no rights on divorce,
Among other things, women were second-class citizens. When their was an event in the bible, and it counted the people, the women in attendance were excluded. Not to mention, this "god" fella excepts women as sex slaves, and he commands that if a woman damages a man's testicles, her hand must be cutt off. And you must always follow this law:

1 Peter:23-25
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of god. For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the lord stands forever.
so Jesus obviously thought this was extreely bias.
Of course he did, he was revolutionary at the time, he even let women teach alongside him. He honored women as people.

Luke 8:1-3
After this Jesus traveled about from one town and village of another procliming the good news of the kingdom of god. The twelve were with him,and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits or diseases: Mary (called Magadalene), from whom seven demons had come out, Joanna, the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household, Sussana, and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.
At the time, if a man wanted to divorce, he simply could, and that woman would be viewed as ugly, sinfull, used, disguting, etc.
Yep. A wife was considered a concubine, who did not have the same rights. Her sole responsibility was boring children and tending to the household. In the OT, pologomy is perfectly acceptable. To be fair, the bible also mentions bad things that happens in housholds with more than 1 wife. The story of Sarah and Hagar is a fantastic example. But noone had more wives than King Soloman, who had 700 wives, and 300 concubines.

Jesus said that the men were being completely irresponsible. That is why he dispises divorce so much. Jesus was protecting the women in this case.
Correct, not in those exact words, but yea.

Thats kind of why it is RECOMENDED not to marry, but if nature takes a hold of you, then by all means dont hold back your godgiven nature.
He didn't recommend not to engage in marital bliss, he simply said some refuse to marry because of the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Then they're not followers of Christ. He clearly states that if you divorce for any other reason other than unfaihfulness, you are commiting adultery, and to reach heaven you must not commit adultery
.

Ever heard of forgivness? You dont automatically go to hell no matter what if you commit adultery.

Are you saying the bible is irrelevant to everyday life? It's reletively easy to see how it can be irrelevant today because it was written in Hebrew and Greek, and in a different place and time period. The issues the bible addresses are still the fundamental issues of life today. There's usually a list of topics that may interest you in the back of every bible. From finding help when you need it to how to deal with anger.
No im not saying that it is completely relevant to todays life, because its 2000 years later...things change.

Actually, he never changed the commandments. He might have altered and radicalized the laws the Pharisees were living by, but he upheld the OT laws.
"Do as they say, but not as they do" Haha, Jesus had an oppurtunistic time during his teaching to condemn slavery, but instead he seems to not only condone it, but slaves' beating as well
EVen the word alter is a synonim for change. Jesus DID change the OT laws, by altering them into better laws.

Of course he did, he was revolutionary at the time, he even let women teach alongside him. He honored women as people.
yea...i think we are in agreement...thats kinda what i was saying...

He didn't recommend not to engage in marital bliss, he simply said some refuse to marry because of the kingdom of heaven.


umm...well Paul has something to say in 1 Corinthians 7:

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

25Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

Now this IS Pauls words, but it is his interpretation of what Jesus taught on marrige.
 

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i believe in tranquility said:
.
Ever heard of forgivness? You dont automatically go to hell no matter what if you commit adultery.
According to the dead Jew, there's no such thing as forgiveness against the holy spirit:

Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
How can a finite human be guilty of eternal sins?

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure; for god will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral.
Wow, you're boy Paul seems to be speaking for this "god" fellow here, and states that adulterers will be judged.


No im not saying that it is completely relevant to todays life, because its 2000 years later...things change.
It should be relevant to anytime. If it was inspired by a perfect entity, we should be amazed and astonished in the brilliance of the wording when we read it, but no, at first glance it's nothing more than poetic babbling, after reading it, this all knowing god is such a mental midget, he makes George Bush look smart.:lol:


Jesus DID change the OT laws, by altering them into better laws.
Give me an example besides "eye for an eye", that your carpenter altered.





umm...well Paul has something to say in 1 Corinthians 7:

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

25Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

Now this IS Pauls words, but it is his interpretation of what Jesus taught on marrige.
:rofl First off, the apostle Paul isn't a very compelling source. For cryin out loud, he didn't even believe Christ resurrected, he needed an eye-witness account. He conspires with the "holy ghost" to make a sorcer blind, he condemns homosexuals, and he says that anyone who claims he is a liar, deserves damnation.
 

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Jesus is an interesting Character, looking at his life from a purely semi-secular view is interesting.


I don't see him as divine, as I don't believe in this type of notion of god, but I think Jesus was an interesting person.


I wish I could say more but I'm only starting to read about the life of Jesus.
 
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According to the dead Jew, there's no such thing as forgiveness against the holy spirit:
umm..Jesus died to save us from our sins. THE ULTIMATE FORGIVNESS IS HIS SACRIFIC FOR us. That quote on the holy spirit is talking about those who reject it (non believers), cant be forgiven for not accepting the HOly spirit, according to Paul. BUT dont think that I agree with everything in the Bible. I belive that God judges your life, whether you are christian or not, and gives you mercy if God feels that you have lived a life that in God's eyes is good.

Give me an example besides "eye for an eye", that your carpenter altered.
Concerning anger: Matthew 5:21
Concerning Adultery: Matthew 5:27
Concerning Divorce: Matthew 5:31
Concerning Oaths: Matthew 5:33
Concerning Retaliation: Matthew 5:38
Love For Enemies: Matthew 5:43
Concerning Prayer: Matthew 6:5

it goes on and on...


First off, the apostle Paul isn't a very compelling source. For cryin out loud, he didn't even believe Christ resurrected, he needed an eye-witness account. He conspires with the "holy ghost" to make a sorcer blind, he condemns homosexuals, and he says that anyone who claims he is a liar, deserves damnation.
like I said, i agree with some of what he says, and disagree with other things he says. call it whatever you want, I just agree with what i think is moral, and disagree with what i think is unmoral. For example: I think that hating gays is WRONG.
 

kal-el

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i believe in tranquility said:
umm..Jesus died to save us from our sins. THE ULTIMATE FORGIVNESS IS HIS SACRIFIC FOR us.
That's the popular abstract ssumption. You cannot prove he didn't. I could say Tupac Shakur died for our sins. You cannot prove he didn't. Why would he have to, if this god is omnipotent, then why go through this little chirade of crucifixion? And if Jesus was god, he commited suicide.


That quote on the holy spirit is talking about those who reject it (non believers), cant be forgiven for not accepting the HOly spirit, according to Paul. BUT dont think that I agree with everything in the Bible. I belive that God judges
And you wanna talk about forgiveness? Well, think about it, how can a third party(god) forgive someone? That's a bit like saying if you were to strike me in the face, a stanger would come along and say, "I forgive you for doing that" That is asinine. You want my forgiveness, not a 3rd party's.


Concerning anger: Matthew 5:21
Uhh, he is not changing the law one bit. The 6th commandment given by god states "you shall not murder", the carpenter takes it one step further and asserts anyone that's angry with his brother will be subject to judgement. BTW, in that chapter, the carpenter also says anyone who says, "you fool" will go to hell, but he, Moses, Isiah, Jeremiah, and your sky pixie himself are guilty of this.:lol:

Concerning Adultery: Matthew 5:27
He just fullfills the laws set forth in Exodus 20:14, Deuteronomy 5:18, and Hebrews 13:4. God and Jesus make it clear that adultery is wrong.

Concerning Divorce: Matthew 5:31
In Deuteronomy 24:2, it states that a woman who leaves a man will be defiled in the eyes of the lord. What's so new here? Jesus also states this in Luke 16:18, and Mark 10:11.


Concerning Oaths: Matthew 5:33
Concerning Retaliation: Matthew 5:38
Love For Enemies: Matthew 5:43
Concerning Prayer: Matthew 6:5

it goes on and on...
Dude, if you read the heading on these verses, it says, "The Fullfillment of the Law" Jesus didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.




For example: I think that hating gays is WRONG.
That's fine. Then if you think that, obviously you don't agree with this god fellow's morals. He deems it perfectly acceptable to put gays to death, and he is responsible for them.
 

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128shot said:
Jesus is an interesting Character, looking at his life from a purely semi-secular view is interesting.
Yes, but there's not a shred of evidence for his existance, let alone his "divine" attributes.

I don't see him as divine, as I don't believe in this type of notion of god, but I think Jesus was an interesting person.
Yes, he was quite a good magician, he would give David Copperfield a run for his money.:lol:

I wish I could say more but I'm only starting to read about the life of Jesus.
If you think about it, King Herod killed every male 2 and under, because he was afraid of the "king of the Jews". I ask how come nothing, other than a book full of legends and delphic stories is attributted to this man? There's not a modicum of evidence outside of the bible for his existance, of course, that doesn't mean he didn't exist, but he never had sermons with 100s of people in attendance, or else there would be abundant records of him.
 
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That's the popular abstract ssumption. You cannot prove he didn't. I could say Tupac Shakur died for our sins. You cannot prove he didn't. Why would he have to, if this god is omnipotent, then why go through this little chirade of crucifixion? And if Jesus was god, he commited suicide.
Its an assumtion for non-christians (and you have the right to assume). Its part of the faith, just like ressurection (obviously there is no scientific evidence for it, but I beilve that Jesus ressurected).
Again, I dont believe that Jesus is God, so no God did not commit sucide.

And you wanna talk about forgiveness? Well, think about it, how can a third party(god) forgive someone? That's a bit like saying if you were to strike me in the face, a stanger would come along and say, "I forgive you for doing that" That is asinine. You want my forgiveness, not a 3rd party's.
Third party?...thats where the the connection between Jesus and God comes in.

the carpenter takes it one step further
yes...he alters it from its original concept.

He just fullfills the laws set forth in Exodus 20:14, Deuteronomy 5:18, and Hebrews 13:4. God and Jesus make it clear that adultery is wrong.
correct. I agree with you that he fullfilled (i think i just view changing that way, and you dont..it really doesnt matter).

In Deuteronomy 24:2, it states that a woman who leaves a man will be defiled in the eyes of the lord. What's so new here? Jesus also states this in Luke 16:18, and Mark 10:11.
same for a man.

Dude, if you read the heading on these verses, it says, "The Fullfillment of the Law" Jesus didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.
I dont think I said abolish (but if i did forgive me). I agree with you.

That's fine. Then if you think that, obviously you don't agree with this god fellow's morals. He deems it perfectly acceptable to put gays to death, and he is responsible for them.
Yes, your right, I dont agree with God fellow's morals which have been corrupted I agree with Jesus on this issues, love everyone regardless of there conditions (what is great about the issue, is that if God creates us, why would he make us gay if he despises it). Like i say, its been corrupted, and Jesus's purpose was to clear that corruption.
 

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i believe in tranquility said:
Its an assumtion for non-christians (and you have the right to assume). Its part of the faith, just like ressurection (obviously there is no scientific evidence for it, but I beilve that Jesus ressurected).
Well, if he had to make a cameo appearance to prove to Paul that he ressurected, why not appear to anyone? Why can he appear to Paul and many others, and not say, a preacher? After all, he says whatever you ask for in prayer, it will be given to you, if a preacher prays that Jesus will materailize and meet him in person, why wouldn't Jesus grant him that wish? Is he lying about rewards in prayer?


Again, I dont believe that Jesus is God, so no God did not commit sucide.
You might not believe it, but a host of others do, as so he committed suicide by killing himself on the cross.


Third party?...thats where the the connection between Jesus and God comes in.
What? A 3rd party cannot forgive sins period. "Hypothetically of course" If you rape a girl, only she can forgive you. Your idea is like me saying I forgivr you for raping that girl. That's a preposterous notion.


yes...he alters it from its original concept.
Maybe you're right, but he doesn't modify the existing law on murder.



same for a man.
What? A man who leaves a man? God condemns gays to death.


Yes, your right, I dont agree with God fellow's morals which have been corrupted I agree with Jesus on this issues, love everyone regardless of there conditions (what is great about the issue, is that if God creates us, why would he make us gay if he despises it). Like i say, its been corrupted, and Jesus's purpose was to clear that corruption.
Yes, Jesus's purpose was to basically turn the world upside down. That is, he tried to inagurate a new way of living that had the potential to put war and prejudice away completely.
 
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You might not believe it, but a host of others do, as so he committed suicide by killing himself on the cross.
Well im sure that those who beilve that Jesus IS God dont think that God commited sucide, for a number of reasons. The most prominent reason would be that Jesus was killed.

But again, i wouldnt know how they think, because I dont think like those who beilve that Jesus IS God, so for me he did not commit sucide.

Your argument is great: i think you should make a thread of religiousforums targeted to those who beilve that Jesus IS God, and ask them the same.
It would be very interesting, and funny at that.
 

kal-el

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i believe in tranquility said:
Well im sure that those who beilve that Jesus IS God dont think that God commited sucide, for a number of reasons. The most prominent reason would be that Jesus was killed.
Ahh, but if he was god, god is omniscient, and omnipotent. He would know what fate was wating for him, and being almighty, would be able to stop it. Since he didn't, he commited suicide. And when Jesus claims bread is his body, he's commiting cannablism by eating it. That's assuming the carpenter was god.


Your argument is great: i think you should make a thread of religiousforums targeted to those who beilve that Jesus IS God, and ask them the same.
It would be very interesting, and funny at that.
Thanks, I wasn't a Christian for over 14 years for nothing.:2razz: Yea, I find it a rather mawkish preposition asserting that Jesus was god, if he was god who was this:

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my son, whom I love, with him I am well pleased."
If people assert that it was anything else, they are conceding that there are multiple gods, which hold the same authority as god. The only logical interpretation is that Jesus is the son of god, and since that voice from heaven says "this is my son" the only rational conclusion to one who says that is that a father is speaking.
 
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