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Jesus was married...[W:379]

Re: Jesus was married...

Moderator's Warning:
Notice my previous warning? It applies to you, too. Knock off the attacks on religion or don't post in this sub-forum.

WOW! First time I have ever seen a Mod on any site on the Internet have the jewels to finally say it. Well Done!
 
Re: Jesus was married...

actually it would have because he would have had a duty to his wife and children. him going to the cross would have been a violation of that duty.
people wonder why his ministry didn't start till he was about 30. that is because in jewish law the oldest son was required to work in the family
business until he was 30.

he was crucified at the age of 33.

also if Christ had been married then it would have been mentioned by one of the gospels.


I would love to see your source that states 'It was Jewish law that the old son was required to work in the family business until he was 30.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

I would love to see your source that states 'It was Jewish law that the old son was required to work in the family business until he was 30.

try reading the rest of the thread. as the oldest son and his father had died it was his responsibility to take care of the family.
according to Jewish tradition he couldn't take up the mantel of Rabbi or public ministry until he was around the age of 30.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

WOW! First time I have ever seen a Mod on any site on the Internet have the jewels to finally say it. Well Done!

[offtopic]

the religious forum here has some strict rules and for good reason.
I have found that the mod's here do a good job in keeping the debate open but not
allowing for the religious hate that usually follows.

this forum is for the actual discussion of religious views and things.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

WOW! First time I have ever seen a Mod on any site on the Internet have the jewels to finally say it. Well Done!

[offtopic]

the religious forum here has some strict rules and for good reason.
I have found that the mod's here do a good job in keeping the debate open but not
allowing for the religious hate that usually follows.

this forum is for the actual discussion of religious views and things.

Always read the signpost at the door. :mrgreen:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/105486-religious-discussions-forum.html
 
Re: Jesus was married...

try reading the rest of the thread. as the oldest son and his father had died it was his responsibility to take care of the family.
according to Jewish tradition he couldn't take up the mantel of Rabbi or public ministry until he was around the age of 30.

Would you please show the source for this claim.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

There is some speculation but it is based off of jewish tradition.

1. Joseph died at some point in time after Christ turned 12. we know that he was trained in carpentry (or handi-work) as the people of his hometown
acknowledge this. If Joseph died then it fell onto the oldest son to take care of the family. He would be responsible for them until one of his brothers
was old enough or he turned 30 to do something else.

2. From what I understand it was jewish tradition that a man be 30 years old before he could become a rabbi or take that title.

There is no Jewish tradition to that effect, nor is there any law that I am aware of, other than those which I mentioned. There is only the formulation for when formal entrance to the priesthood occurs but that is a very different thing and unrelated to Jesus who is an asserted descendent of David (and thus Judah) not a Levite.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

Would you please show the source for this claim.

numbers 4:3 says gives the requirements for the priest hood.
We also know that Christ was in the family business for a while because the people labeled him as such
when he went to his home town.

we also know that Joseph must have died between his age of 12 and 30.
we know for several reasons.

1. he would have had to support the family till one of his brothers would have been
old enough to take care of his mother.

2. When he was on the cross he told John to take care of his mother. something he would
not have done if he father was still alive.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

There is no Jewish tradition to that effect, nor is there any law that I am aware of, other than those which I mentioned. There is only the formulation for when formal entrance to the priesthood occurs but that is a very different thing and unrelated to Jesus who is an asserted descendent of David (and thus Judah) not a Levite.

the every biblical source I read is wrong and you are right. I think I will stick with the biblical sources that have authority in the matter.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

numbers 4:3 says gives the requirements for the priest hood.
We also know that Christ was in the family business for a while because the people labeled him as such
when he went to his home town.

we also know that Joseph must have died between his age of 12 and 30.
we know for several reasons.

1. he would have had to support the family till one of his brothers would have been
old enough to take care of his mother.

2. When he was on the cross he told John to take care of his mother. something he would
not have done if he father was still alive.

Right the requirements for the Priesthood are limited to Levites, which Jesus was not, and it only regulated when you enter the Priesthood, not when you may preach. Levites did and still can enter the Rabbinate before the age of 30.

I'm not disputing that he may have gone into the family business due to the death of his father, I'm just disputing your attempt to justify it with Jewish textual support because I believe you are mistaken.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

the every biblical source I read is wrong and you are right. I think I will stick with the biblical sources that have authority in the matter.

Then tell us the biblical sources please. You've only cited the reference to the Levites, something which has already been explained. If you have something else I'm happy to review it and consider it, otherwise it seems safe to assume that this is a mistaken conclusion.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

Then tell us the biblical sources please. You've only cited the reference to the Levites, something which has already been explained. If you have something else I'm happy to review it and consider it, otherwise it seems safe to assume that this is a mistaken conclusion.

no Leviticus is the book of law.
For Christ to publicly begin his ministry as a rabbi he would have had to been at least age 30.

this applied to all of jewish society. as there were members of the priesthood not of the tribe of levi.

since Christ came to fulfill the law he would have done so.
he would have followed his family obligations along with Jewish obligations.

50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. 51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature[c] and in favor with God and man.

shows that he was submitting to his Father and mother.
there is clearly an 18 year gap between luke 2 and luke 3.

this being that Joseph's father died somewhere in this time frame and as the eldest son it fell on
him to take care of his family.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

no Leviticus is the book of law.
For Christ to publicly begin his ministry as a rabbi he would have had to been at least age 30.

this applied to all of jewish society. as there were members of the priesthood not of the tribe of levi.

since Christ came to fulfill the law he would have done so.
he would have followed his family obligations along with Jewish obligations.

50 And they did not understand the saying that he spoke to them. 51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was submissive to them. And his mother treasured up all these things in her heart.

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature[c] and in favor with God and man.

shows that he was submitting to his Father and mother.
there is clearly an 18 year gap between luke 2 and luke 3.

this being that Joseph's father died somewhere in this time frame and as the eldest son it fell on
him to take care of his family.

No... You are confusing the word Leviticus with the word Levite. The Book of Leviticus is part of the Torah, Levites refers to those who were enjoined to the Priesthood as a result of their descent from their patrilineal descent from Aaron. There were no non-Levite priests. Furthermore a priest is emphatically not the same thing as a Rabbi. You may minister without being a Priest and you may be a Priest without ministering. Some individuals in the Torah carry out priestlike functions in certain circumstances (Micah, David, etc) but they are not reckoned as priests.

I would also add that this remains important even in modern times as we continued to accord those who are descendants of the Levites and are Kohens certain priestly rights and responsibilities related to worship, marriage, etc.
 
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Re: Jesus was married...

No... You are confusing the word Leviticus with the word Levite. The Book of Leviticus is part of the Torah, Levites refers to those who were enjoined to the Priesthood as a result of their descent from their patrilineal descent from Aaron. There were no non-Levite priests. Furthermore a priest is emphatically not the same thing as a Rabbi. You may minister without being a Priest and you may be a Priest without ministering. Some individuals in the Torah carry out priestlike functions in certain circumstances (Micah, David, etc) but they are not reckoned as priests.

I would also add that this remains important even in modern times as we continued to accord those who are descendants of the Levites and are Kohens certain priestly rights and responsibilities related to worship, marriage, etc.

you said it better than I did.
however for him to be a rabbi in a public setting he would have been about 30.

also prior to that he would have been taking care of his family till one of his brothers was old
enough to take over.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

numbers 4:3 says gives the requirements for the priest hood.
We also know that Christ was in the family business for a while because the people labeled him as such
when he went to his home town.

we also know that Joseph must have died between his age of 12 and 30.
we know for several reasons.

1. he would have had to support the family till one of his brothers would have been
old enough to take care of his mother.

2. When he was on the cross he told John to take care of his mother. something he would
not have done if he father was still alive.

Numbers 4:3 says nothing about the requirement of the eldest sons taking care of the family until they are 30. It specifically has to do with temple duties, not the priest hood, You are totally misinterpreting what Numbers 4:3 is talking about.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

you said it better than I did.
however for him to be a rabbi in a public setting he would have been about 30.

also prior to that he would have been taking care of his family till one of his brothers was old
enough to take over.

But why would he have to be 30 years old to be a Rabbi? Or to teach? I don't understand that point. Many famous Rabbis before this time practiced before aged 30 including Shammai, Gamliel, and I believe even Hillel (the elder). Can you explain this with sources? Its much easier to believe that Jesus was simply engrossed with supporting his family than to believe there was some biblical injunction or tradition against his practice.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

the every biblical source I read is wrong and you are right. I think I will stick with the biblical sources that have authority in the matter.

Your interpretation of the 'biblical source' is wrong, because you are not reading it in context, and attributing meaning to it that isn't there. Shereman123 is correct. If yo read number 4:1-2 you will see that it is specifically those of the priestly tribe that have to perform tasks in the tent of Meeting (what they had before the temple).


You are reading into the passage, rather than taking from the passage.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

you said it better than I did.
however for him to be a rabbi in a public setting he would have been about 30.

also prior to that he would have been taking care of his family till one of his brothers was old
enough to take over.

You have not supported that statement. You misread a passage, and the repeat a claim you have not supported. Next, when you are talking about concept of the Rabbi as in the way it's used today (as being a minister in a public setting), the way it is being used today didn't happen until after the temple was destroyed, which makes your use of the term anachronistic.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

But why would he have to be 30 years old to be a Rabbi? Or to teach? I don't understand that point. Many famous Rabbis before this time practiced before aged 30 including Shammai, Gamliel, and I believe even Hillel (the elder). Can you explain this with sources? Its much easier to believe that Jesus was simply engrossed with supporting his family than to believe there was some biblical injunction or tradition against his practice.

They practiced before however if you look and should already know they were not allowed to publicly spread their message till 30.
up until that time they were mentored by other rabbi's or priests.

he would have followed strictly the Jewish tradition of education.
as Dr. A.T. Bradford said.


“While the Gospel records do not detail the steps Jesus took between the ages of 12 years and 30 years, the Mishnah is clear that 30 is the age for authoritative speaking.”

between the ages of 12-30 he was doing 1 of two things.

1. taking care of his family as his father had died which was his obligation.
2. he was also studying to be a rabbi as he was formally called each by friend and enemy alike.
3. he was not allowed to speak from a position of authority till he was 30.

so prior to that he would not have been able to really engage the people more so the Pharisee's until that time.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

They practiced before however if you look and should already know they were not allowed to publicly spread their message till 30.
up until that time they were mentored by other rabbi's or priests.

he would have followed strictly the Jewish tradition of education.
as Dr. A.T. Bradford said.


“While the Gospel records do not detail the steps Jesus took between the ages of 12 years and 30 years, the Mishnah is clear that 30 is the age for authoritative speaking.”

between the ages of 12-30 he was doing 1 of two things.

1. taking care of his family as his father had died which was his obligation.
2. he was also studying to be a rabbi as he was formally called each by friend and enemy alike.
3. he was not allowed to speak from a position of authority till he was 30.

so prior to that he would not have been able to really engage the people more so the Pharisee's until that time.

Where in the Mishnah would you find that? I've studied Talmud and I've never heard of such a thing. Are you familiar with what tractate he might be referring to? Furthermore my comment had nothing to do with not being able to 'spread their knowledge' there were a few specific roles that Talmudic tradition says you should be at least 30 for, but there is no injunction against teaching and 'ministering' for those below the age of 30 that I'm aware of. Can you cite a tractate to the contrary?
 
Re: Jesus was married...

Jesus and Mary Magdelene were married. She mourns his death at the foot of the tomb and enters his tomb at dawn to anoint his body. She also discovers the empty tomb and is the first person to discover his missing body. She is not mentioned as a sister, mother, daughter as women commonly are in the Bible... she is at the wedding in Cana with Jesus and the name of the married couple is never mentioned yet Mary is the one that tells Jesus that they are out of wine and not the bride or groom. She was his wife and that would mean that they probably had children as well.
No evidence of this in the Bible, or anywhere else.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

Where in the Mishnah would you find that? I've studied Talmud and I've never heard of such a thing. Are you familiar with what tractate he might be referring to? Furthermore my comment had nothing to do with not being able to 'spread their knowledge' there were a few specific roles that Talmudic tradition says you should be at least 30 for, but there is no injunction against teaching and 'ministering' for those below the age of 30 that I'm aware of. Can you cite a tractate to the contrary?

I am simply posting what people who have way more study in this have to say.

At five years of age, one is ready for the study of the Scripture, at ten years of age one is fit for the study of the Mishnah, at the age of thirteen for bar mitzvah, at the age of fifteen for the study of Talmud, at the age of eighteen for marriage, at the age of twenty for pursuing a vocation, at the age of thirty for entering into one’s full vigor…(Avot 5:2l).

This is the most detailed link I have found so far.

Study Shows Jesus as Rabbi - Bible Scholars
 
Re: Jesus was married...

No evidence of this in the Bible, or anywhere else.

gnostic writings say such thing but they have pretty much been removed.
 
Re: Jesus was married...

I am simply posting what people who have way more study in this have to say.

At five years of age, one is ready for the study of the Scripture, at ten years of age one is fit for the study of the Mishnah, at the age of thirteen for bar mitzvah, at the age of fifteen for the study of Talmud, at the age of eighteen for marriage, at the age of twenty for pursuing a vocation, at the age of thirty for entering into one’s full vigor…(Avot 5:2l).

This is the most detailed link I have found so far.

Study Shows Jesus as Rabbi - Bible Scholars

Thank you, yes I'm familiar with that tractate. It is true that the sages say that one enters ones full vigor at age 30 and this is used as the basis for ensuring that the cantor/chazzan for high holiday prayers be above the age of 30 due to the responsibility. But it is not, to my knowledge, ever been invoked as a bar to rabbinical practice for someone under that age. Nor is there any tradition I'm aware of to that effect.
 
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