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Jesus Gave the Apostles Authority to Forgive Sins

phattonez

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Jesus undoubtedly gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins. My question is this. Did Jesus relinquish this authority after the apostles died? If so, why, and what is the evidence that the early Church recognized that this authority was relinquished.

They didn't. Neither the Holy Spirit nor the Apostles it invigorated derive their authority from what a council of men would decide centuries afterwards. :p

I'm tagging cpwill to get his attention.
 
So, Jesus created more Gods.
 
Here's what the early Church actually said:

Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition*3 [A.D. 215]).

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE

“The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him” (The Lapsed*15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord” (ibid., 28).

Note that they recognized this authority not only in the apostles at the time of Jesus, but also in their time centuries later.
 
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Here's what the early Church actually said:

Hippolytus

“[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command” (Apostolic Tradition*3 [A.D. 215]).

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE

“The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him” (The Lapsed*15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).
“Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord” (ibid., 28).

Seems odd that an all seeing, all knowing omnipresent deity would need a human to admit sins orally to another human non-deity...
 
Seems odd that an all seeing, all knowing omnipresent deity would need a human to admit sins orally to another human non-deity...
Who ever said need? This is His will. He's not limited by this, but this is the way that He instituted. Now if you're only going to be here to stir up off topic skepticism regarding belief in God, then please go elsewhere and start your own thread.
 
And more quotes:

BASIL THE GREAT

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles” (Rules Briefly Treated*288 [A.D. 374]).

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven” (The Priesthood*3:5 [A.D. 387]).

AMBROSE OF MILAN

“For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only” (Penance*1:1 [A.D. 388]).

Protestants have some serious explaining to do if they think their views on forgiveness of sins are a return to the early Church. FAR FROM IT.
 
Who ever said need? This is His will. He's not limited by this, but this is the way that He instituted. Now if you're only going to be here to stir up off topic skepticism regarding belief in God, then please go elsewhere and start your own thread.

Whoa Dude don't go all sacrosanct..
 
Whoa Dude don't go all sacrosanct..
I don't appreciate atheists and pagans coming into this thread and making it about their own pet issues rather than dealing with the contents of the OP. If you want to debate your issue, make your own thread and we'll discuss it.
 
I don't appreciate atheists and pagans coming into this thread and making it about their own pet issues rather than dealing with the contents of the OP. If you want to debate your issue, make your own thread and we'll discuss it.

Then you should have started this thread in the theology forum, not the beliefs and skeptics forum...
 
Then you should have started this thread in the theology forum, not the beliefs and skeptics forum...
Threads can go off topic in this forum? That's news to me. And if it's in the incorrect forum then let the mods move it.
 
I don't appreciate atheists and pagans coming into this thread and making it about their own pet issues rather than dealing with the contents of the OP. If you want to debate your issue, make your own thread and we'll discuss it.

What about Muslims?
 
Threads can go off topic in this forum? That's news to me. And if it's in the incorrect forum then let the mods move it.

You shoulda read the rules...

Purpose
- General free-for-all discussion forum for anything relating to systems of belief, or the lack thereof.
- A place for those desiring to debate these topics with those from a wide variety of "foundational" standpoints.
 
You shoulda read the rules...
I'm waiting for the part where it says you can ignore the OP and talk about whatever the hell you want.
 
Who ever said need? This is His will. He's not limited by this, but this is the way that He instituted. Now if you're only going to be here to stir up off topic skepticism regarding belief in God, then please go elsewhere and start your own thread.

Sorry but his question is a valid one. He's not calling out skepticism in God but in the religion that states it is the "will" of God that a human non-deity should have to admit sins to another human non-deity for forgiveness of sin.

He's also correct if you don't want to have God or your religion questioned, you are in the wrong forum. This forum is called "Beliefs and SKEPTICISM" for a reason.
 
Jesus undoubtedly gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins. My question is this. Did Jesus relinquish this authority after the apostles died? If so, why, and what is the evidence that the early Church recognized that this authority was relinquished.

I'm tagging cpwill to get his attention.

If you had a Scripture we could look it up.

Your point of view seems steeped in mysticism.

You assume Christ has authority to delegate.

The question is, "What authority has Christ, and one who is in Christ, to forgive sin?"

If we observe, we find that the Authority is limited.
 
Sorry but his question is a valid one. He's not calling out skepticism in God but in the religion that states it is the "will" of God that a human non-deity should have to admit sins to another human non-deity for forgiveness of sin.

He's also correct if you don't want to have God or your religion questioned, you are in the wrong forum. This forum is called "Beliefs and SKEPTICISM" for a reason.
I answered the question. He doesn't HAVE TO. But it's barely related to the substance of the OP.
 
Jesus undoubtedly gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins. My question is this. Did Jesus relinquish this authority after the apostles died? If so, why, and what is the evidence that the early Church recognized that this authority was relinquished.

You are conflating two different types of forgiveness. Everyone has the ability to forgive (turn the other cheek) and therefore not hold another person responsible for the transgressions they have done against them. However the ability to forgive the sin which will condemn one to eternal damnation is not a function of the apostles, disciples, preachers, priests or other mortals. So therefore a difference between holding responsible and being accountable.
 
You are conflating two different types of forgiveness. Everyone has the ability to forgive (turn the other cheek) and therefore not hold another person responsible for the transgressions they have done against them. However the ability to forgive the sin which will condemn one to eternal damnation is not a function of the apostles, disciples, preachers, priests or other mortals. So therefore a difference between holding responsible and being accountable.

Evidence? Jesus makes no mention of such a distinction in ability of apostles to forgive sins.
 
Jesus undoubtedly gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins. My question is this. Did Jesus relinquish this authority after the apostles died? If so, why, and what is the evidence that the early Church recognized that this authority was relinquished.

I'm tagging cpwill to get his attention.

Just about all standard interpretation of Christian text (primarily John comes to mind) suggests passing from Jesus to the apostles the "authority" to forgive sin, even though the going caveat is this authority was conditional on forgive or retain. I.e. authority to even decide what could be forgiven.

Other areas of the bible with relevant text also refer to Holy Spirit (even if called something slightly different, like "breath") as part of that mission of mercy and forgiveness. The reason for that significance is the NT interpretations of those concepts against the more wrath orientation of text from the OT.

Appreciate this coming from an agnostic but who studied in great detail the history of the period in question, therefor studied religion and origins of.

My personal opinion is this is an area of the Bible with less room for wide interpretation but still there is argument on what some of those words really meant in the original language used to record all this.
 
You are conflating two different types of forgiveness. Everyone has the ability to forgive (turn the other cheek) and therefore not hold another person responsible for the transgressions they have done against them. However the ability to forgive the sin which will condemn one to eternal damnation is not a function of the apostles, disciples, preachers, priests or other mortals. So therefore a difference between holding responsible and being accountable.

True...every human alive has the ability to forgive another's sins, but that does not erase the "reap what you sow" law...we are all still accountable to God for our actions and only Jesus, through God, can forgive...

"So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God." Romans 14:12

"To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:43
 
True...every human alive has the ability to forgive another's sins, but that does not erase the "reap what you sow" law...we are all still accountable to god for our actions...

"So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God." Romans 14:12
"To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged."

Jesus was well aware of this and gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins
 
Just about all standard interpretation of Christian text (primarily John comes to mind) suggests passing from Jesus to the apostles the "authority" to forgive sin, even though the going caveat is this authority was conditional on forgive or retain. I.e. authority to even decide what could be forgiven.

Other areas of the bible with relevant text also refer to Holy Spirit (even if called something slightly different, like "breath") as part of that mission of mercy and forgiveness. The reason for that significance is the NT interpretations of those concepts against the more wrath orientation of text from the OT.

Appreciate this coming from an agnostic but who studied in great detail the history of the period in question, therefor studied religion and origins of.

My personal opinion is this is an area of the Bible with less room for wide interpretation but still there is argument on what some of those words really meant in the original language used to record all this.
What do you make of the practice of the early Church?
 
"To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged."

Reference?

David may have been incorrect.
 
"To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee: that thou mayst be justified in thy words and mayst overcome when thou art judged."

Jesus was well aware of this and gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins

"To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” Acts 10:43
 
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