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Jesus Died For Our Sins? So What!

Lucidthots said:
Hello Pharisee!

How is your father...the devil?
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One that would say such a thing ought to know how the devil is himself....Don't ask me as you are obviously a disciple. AND I SAY TO "YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS GET BEHIND ME DEMAN".
 
Lucidthots said:
Fighting....?
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Good will always FIGHT evil and overcome. If you want to play with the devil stop this internet nonsense and get a Ouija board.
 
alphieb said:
Good will always FIGHT evil and overcome. If you want to play with the devil stop this internet nonsense and get a Ouija board.
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What is your point? You shall not sway or overcome us with God in our hearts.
 
alphieb said:
Good will always FIGHT evil and overcome. If you want to play with the devil stop this internet nonsense and get a Ouija board.
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Why do I somehow feel like he already has one..?
 
alphieb said:
One that would say such a thing ought to know how the devil is himself....Don't ask me as you are obviously a disciple. AND I SAY TO "YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS GET BEHIND ME DEMAN".
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Love thy neighbor as thy self.
 
I could debate the logic of your arguments, Vandeervecken, but there is one thing that undermines them all. Your mind, like mine, is finite. If there is an infinite mind we cannot describe the workings of that mind with our limited abilities. Therefore, speaking from a strictly rational point of view, it is meaningless to make any claim regarding the existence, non-existence or nature (e.g. Trinitarian or Unitarian) of such a mind, if it exists. This, of course, is covered in Pascal's Wager.
I don't agree with the simplistic approach of weighing potential reward and punishment, however. I am also not a fideist, since I can demonstrate logically that someone or something must be infinite (that is rather complex and is another matter entirely). It is true that one cannot assume anything about an afterlife without presupposing its existence, but religion can, as something to which one commits one's life, be justified without recourse to that. If a religion is ethically beneficial, its existence is justified apart from formal logic. Ethics are based on mutual sympathy and are necessary both for our happiness and our survival. Religion, when closely examined apart from traditional definitions, is a commitment to a system of thought that reaffirms some form of ethics, usually based on a belief that the ethics are divinely inspired. Here is the key point: We all worship something in this way. An atheist or a Wiccan might be a hedonist and worship short-term pleasure, for example. That is commitment to the belief that our lives are to be lived solely for such pleasure. Without even going into philosophy, however, one can clearly see that such a religion of hedonism is both self-destructive and mutually destructive.
Then the argument is made that one can be ethical without religion. Yet it is impossible for a person who believes that his or her actions are of finite importance to have the same level of ethical conviction as one who believes that his or her actions are of infinite importance. Hence there is a necessity to believe in something resembling God. Why should we choose Christianity in particular? I state that it has the best possible ethical system. Islam and Judaism preach discipline, but seldom preach forgiveness. Buddhism and Hinduism are too vague and lacking in structure to provide clear ethical guidance. Christianity preaches both discipline and forgiveness, and most importantly, it has a greater positive effect on its followers than any other system of thought. We have all observed that when it is widely practiced in America, the ethics of the average person improve, whereas when it is largely abandoned (e.g. the 1970's) the average American's ethics decline. The Eastern religions and Islamic influences of the 1960's failed to prevent this decline, and in fact the vagueness of certain Eastern religions was often used as an excuse for hedonism. Hence the necessity of Christianity as a religion has repeatedly and dramatically been shown by our own history. I am therefore justified in saying that it is always better that a person be a Christian rather than a non-Christian.
 
Apostle13 said:
Why do I somehow feel like he already has one..?
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He has a very rough road ahead. I will pray for his soul.
 
alphieb said:
He has a very rough road ahead. I will pray for his soul.
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A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things.

And an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
 
Arts&Sciences said:
I could debate the logic of your arguments, Vandeervecken, but there is one thing that undermines them all. Your mind, like mine, is finite. If there is an infinite mind we cannot describe the workings of that mind with our limited abilities. Therefore, speaking from a strictly rational point of view, it is meaningless to make any claim regarding the existence, non-existence or nature (e.g. Trinitarian or Unitarian) of such a mind, if it exists. This, of course, is covered in Pascal's Wager.
I don't agree with the simplistic approach of weighing potential reward and punishment, however. I am also not a fideist, since I can demonstrate logically that someone or something must be infinite (that is rather complex and is another matter entirely). It is true that one cannot assume anything about an afterlife without presupposing its existence, but religion can, as something to which one commits one's life, be justified without recourse to that. If a religion is ethically beneficial, its existence is justified apart from formal logic. Ethics are based on mutual sympathy and are necessary both for our happiness and our survival. Religion, when closely examined apart from traditional definitions, is a commitment to a system of thought that reaffirms some form of ethics, usually based on a belief that the ethics are divinely inspired. Here is the key point: We all worship something in this way. An atheist or a Wiccan might be a hedonist and worship short-term pleasure, for example. That is commitment to the belief that our lives are to be lived solely for such pleasure. Without even going into philosophy, however, one can clearly see that such a religion of hedonism is both self-destructive and mutually destructive.
Then the argument is made that one can be ethical without religion. Yet it is impossible for a person who believes that his or her actions are of finite importance to have the same level of ethical conviction as one who believes that his or her actions are of infinite importance. Hence there is a necessity to believe in something resembling God. Why should we choose Christianity in particular? I state that it has the best possible ethical system. Islam and Judaism preach discipline, but seldom preach forgiveness. Buddhism and Hinduism are too vague and lacking in structure to provide clear ethical guidance. Christianity preaches both discipline and forgiveness, and most importantly, it has a greater positive effect on its followers than any other system of thought. We have all observed that when it is widely practiced in America, the ethics of the average person improve, whereas when it is largely abandoned (e.g. the 1970's) the average American's ethics decline. The Eastern religions and Islamic influences of the 1960's failed to prevent this decline, and in fact the vagueness of certain Eastern religions was often used as an excuse for hedonism. Hence the necessity of Christianity as a religion has repeatedly and dramatically been shown by our own history. I am therefore justified in saying that it is always better that a person be a Christian rather than a non-Christian.
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That is a good post.
Religion is in the heart of the individual and many who say they are religious may well be. Only God knows the heart. Therefore ultimately it comes down to ones own personal relationship with God. I fear many religious people will be in hell.
 
Lucidthots said:
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things.

And an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
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OK Lucid whatever, you are obviously playing games as your text indicates you have a religious background. Why the silly debate...I think you know better and do not believe what you are saying, as no one in their right mind would follow such evil
 
alphieb said:
OK Lucid whatever, you are obviously playing games as your text indicates you have a religious background. Why the silly debate...I think you know better and do not believe what you are saying, as no one in their right mind would follow such evil
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I and my father are one.
 
alphieb said:
He has a very rough road ahead. I will pray for his soul.
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I will agree with you in prayer.
On the brighter side at least he reads the bible.
 
I came forth from the father.
 
Apostle13 said:
That is a good post.
Religion is in the heart of the individual and many who say they are religious may well be. Only God knows the heart. Therefore ultimately it comes down to ones own personal relationship with God. I fear many religious people will be in hell.
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If you do not attend church and lets say were never introduced to religion, but yet you maintain a good heart and do good to others god will have mercy on your soul as you shall not be held accountable for ignorance of god. I don't think heaven and hell is black and white as no individual is perfect and that is the whole purpose why jesus died for our sins.

If you have sinned and truly repent you shall be forgiven by god as we should forgive others.
 
alphieb said:
...I think you know better and do not believe what you are saying, as no one in their right mind would follow such evil
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I blaspheme because I say, "I am the Son of God?"
 
Lucidthots said:
I and my father are one.
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Who is your father the devil or god. If it is God you are not one to him as he is superior to all.
 
Lucidthots said:
I blaspheme because I say, "I am the Son of God?"
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Are you currently taking medicine for schzophrenia?
 
Lucidthots said:
That is lovely:roll:
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31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
 
alphieb said:
Who is your father the devil or god. If it is God you are not one to him as he is superior to all.
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I am in the father and you in me and I in you.
 
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