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Jesus Died For Our Sins? So What!

Vandeervecken

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He Died For Our Sins…So what?

According to Christianity, all men should be thankful that Jesus Christ died for our sins. They claim that by God taking on human form, suffering, and dying on the cross that humanity can be absolved of our sins and gain eternal paradise. The only requirement is belief in Christ. Do the facts presented in the Bible support this belief or is this a falsehood?

Let us accept two postulates from the Christian point of view:

A: The Christian 3-in-1 God exists as defined within the Bible – Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient
and Omnipresent. (We’ll ignore the logical inconsistencies in this definition)

B: Christ was God on Earth become human.

Given that God is indeed eternal, we must accept that His time sense matches His life span. Therefore, Christ’s life span of 30 some odd years would be the equivalent of much less than the blink of an eye to a human. Also, per the Bible, God’s normal domain is the eternal perfection of Heaven; if perfection is a term that can be assigned to a place the Bible defines as having wars. We must also accept the Biblical stories of God’s Wrath upon man – the flood, the drowning of the Pharaoh’s troops, the slaughter of the residents of Jericho, and many other Kingdoms. Therefore, we are told to be thankful that this super being left his perfect home for an equivalent-instant, suffered far less than he has inflicted upon countless millions, and went home.

However, we will accept the Biblical command to be thankful and examine the 4 possibilities to explain the ‘rules’ under which God became human:

1:Upon becoming human, God became fully and completely human, losing all powers and forgetting that he ever was God. This is not possible – Christ said several times that he was the Son of God and thus God himself. If the Bible provides accurate reports, he performed several miracles utilizing godlike powers.

2: Upon becoming human, God became fully and completely human, losing all powers and forgetting that he ever was God until his 30’s when he suddenly remembered. As above, this is not possible for the same reasons.

3: Upon becoming human, God retained his knowledge and powers as God. However, if this is true, why isn’t the Bible filled with stories of the Child-Christ performing miracles? Changing his milk to wine, that sort of thing. However, this case cannot be eliminated out of hand.

4: Christ is not God but was deluded into believing that he was God. This would explain the lack of information on Christ’s early years.

There are two comments that Christ made that must be reconciled with these two remaining possibilities and the above postulates:
1: Christ asked God to allow his fate to pass him by.
2: Christ accused God of forsaking him while he was on the cross.

If the above Case 3 is true, then we have the image of Christ asking himself to allow his fate to pass him by. Further, he also accuses himself of abandoning himself. Working with the above postulates, we also have a being that knows the future asking himself to change that future – although he knows that this does not happen. Unless Christ – and thus God – is insane, this cannot true. This leaves us with only Case 4 – Christ is not God. If Christ is not God, then believing in him cannot provide us with salvation, and so there is no real point to that belief.
 

liberal1

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I'm sure that Jesus existed and that he believed that he was a messiah. However, I'm sure there are hundreds of other messiahs all over the world, that believe they talk to God, communicate with God etc. There is no solid proof that Jesus really was divine or involved in providence. Instead, he could have simply been somone that if they existed today, would be thrown into an asylum.
 

Vandeervecken

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liberal1 said:
I'm sure that Jesus existed and that he believed that he was a messiah. However, I'm sure there are hundreds of other messiahs all over the world, that believe they talk to God, communicate with God etc. There is no solid proof that Jesus really was divine or involved in providence. Instead, he could have simply been somone that if they existed today, would be thrown into an asylum.
I think you are quite likely right on the mark here. Notice the religious people on here have avoided any discussion of the flaming illogic of the Christian myth as pointed out here.
 

Lucidthots

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You are confused!

Christ never claimed to be a GOD over men.

St. Luke 18: 19

And Jesus said unto him, "Why do you call me good?"

"None is good except one, that is GOD."
 

MSgt

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You've pretty much created your own "logic" from your own sense of deduction and are asking people to challenge it.:roll:

If there is no God, then believers will have been fools their whole lives.

If there is a God, they'll be hell to pay for the maker of this thread.
 

alphieb

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Vandeervecken said:
He Died For Our Sins…So what?

According to Christianity, all men should be thankful that Jesus Christ died for our sins. They claim that by God taking on human form, suffering, and dying on the cross that humanity can be absolved of our sins and gain eternal paradise. The only requirement is belief in Christ. Do the facts presented in the Bible support this belief or is this a falsehood?

Let us accept two postulates from the Christian point of view:

A: The Christian 3-in-1 God exists as defined within the Bible – Eternal, Omnipotent, Omniscient
and Omnipresent. (We’ll ignore the logical inconsistencies in this definition)

B: Christ was God on Earth become human.

Given that God is indeed eternal, we must accept that His time sense matches His life span. Therefore, Christ’s life span of 30 some odd years would be the equivalent of much less than the blink of an eye to a human. Also, per the Bible, God’s normal domain is the eternal perfection of Heaven; if perfection is a term that can be assigned to a place the Bible defines as having wars. We must also accept the Biblical stories of God’s Wrath upon man – the flood, the drowning of the Pharaoh’s troops, the slaughter of the residents of Jericho, and many other Kingdoms. Therefore, we are told to be thankful that this super being left his perfect home for an equivalent-instant, suffered far less than he has inflicted upon countless millions, and went home.

However, we will accept the Biblical command to be thankful and examine the 4 possibilities to explain the ‘rules’ under which God became human:

1:Upon becoming human, God became fully and completely human, losing all powers and forgetting that he ever was God. This is not possible – Christ said several times that he was the Son of God and thus God himself. If the Bible provides accurate reports, he performed several miracles utilizing godlike powers.

2: Upon becoming human, God became fully and completely human, losing all powers and forgetting that he ever was God until his 30’s when he suddenly remembered. As above, this is not possible for the same reasons.

3: Upon becoming human, God retained his knowledge and powers as God. However, if this is true, why isn’t the Bible filled with stories of the Child-Christ performing miracles? Changing his milk to wine, that sort of thing. However, this case cannot be eliminated out of hand.

4: Christ is not God but was deluded into believing that he was God. This would explain the lack of information on Christ’s early years.

There are two comments that Christ made that must be reconciled with these two remaining possibilities and the above postulates:
1: Christ asked God to allow his fate to pass him by.
2: Christ accused God of forsaking him while he was on the cross.

If the above Case 3 is true, then we have the image of Christ asking himself to allow his fate to pass him by. Further, he also accuses himself of abandoning himself. Working with the above postulates, we also have a being that knows the future asking himself to change that future – although he knows that this does not happen. Unless Christ – and thus God – is insane, this cannot true. This leaves us with only Case 4 – Christ is not God. If Christ is not God, then believing in him cannot provide us with salvation, and so there is no real point to that belief.
OK, JOKER FIRST OF ALL JESUS WAS NOT GOD AND NEVER CLAIMED TO BE AND ALSO HE DID WHAT HE DID WHEN IT WAS TIME FOR HIS CALLING.
 

Apostle13

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GySgt said:
You've pretty much created your own "logic" from your own sense of deduction and are asking people to challenge it.:roll:

If there is no God, then believers will have been fools their whole lives.

If there is a God, they'll be hell to pay for the maker of this thread.

Agreed... With the later statement a total given.
...But as True believers what are we to do?
Be angered taking offence..?
...Or rather should we not pray for them (unbelievers) as our Lord instucts us.
In all knowing that we share in God's heart..."Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." 2Peter 3:9
 

alphieb

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Apostle13 said:
Agreed... With the later statement a total given.
...But as True believers what are we to do?
Be angered taking offence..?
...Or rather should we not pray for them (unbelievers) as our Lord instucts us.
In all knowing that we share in God's heart..."Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." 2Peter 3:9
Of course, we shall pray for them and you know that.
 

Apostle13

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alphieb said:
OK, JOKER FIRST OF ALL JESUS WAS NOT GOD AND NEVER CLAIMED TO BE AND ALSO HE DID WHAT HE DID WHEN IT WAS TIME FOR HIS CALLING.

Oh but he was and he did...
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses I AM that I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites; I Am has sent me to you.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I Am".
 

Apostle13

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alphieb said:
Of course, we shall pray for them and you know that.
Fun to debate them too... Always knowing that we have the TRUTH (as described in John 14:6) on our side...Making them squirm in their convictions.
 

Lucidthots

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Apostle13 said:
Oh but he was and he did...
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses I AM that I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites; I Am has sent me to you.
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I Am".
Before Abraham was, I did too exist!
 

Lucidthots

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I originated out of GOD.

I am eternal Life.
 

Lucidthots

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God is My father, I was born of a virgin.
 

Lucidthots

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I am not from this material world.

I come from a world of eternity.
 
T

The Real McCoy

God: Jesus!

Jesus (showing up in a flash): What?!

God: Get the Escalade, we're outta here!

~Family Guy
 

Lucidthots

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Apostle13 said:
"I Am" perplexed by your pernicious lunacy.
You are from beneath, I am from above.
You are of this world, I am not of this world.
 

alphieb

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Apostle13 said:
Fun to debate them too... Always knowing that we have the TRUTH (as described in John 14:6) on our side...Making them squirm in their convictions.
Unfortunately, I don't think they squirm, for if they did they would have a little faith. You and I both no there is NO faith here. However, demons always squirm in the NAME OF JESUS AND THE FATHER....so maybe you are right,
 

Lucidthots

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alphieb said:
Unfortunately, I don't think they squirm, for if they did they would have a little faith. You and I both no there is NO faith here. However, demons always squirm in the NAME OF JESUS AND THE FATHER....so maybe you are right,
Hello Pharisee!

How is your father...the devil?
 

Apostle13

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Lucidthots said:
You are from beneath, I am from above.
You are of this world, I am not of this world.
You are not all that...Far be it.
John 8:44
 

Lucidthots

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Apostle13 said:
You are not all that...Far be it.
And the Light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.
 

Apostle13

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alphieb said:
demons always squirm in the NAME OF JESUS AND THE FATHER...
Precisely! We know we are fighting principalities and powers.
 
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