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Japan's Continuing Denial of Holocaust.. why?

jfuh

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Why is it that Japan till this day continues to deny if not flat out lie that it commited mass murdering in Korea and China in WWII?
Now Japan wants to change it's constitution and throw out article 9 all together.
Why is it that this economic super power nation has no balls to face up with it's past and make peace with it's neighbors. Or for that matter now have this thriving nationalist movement that is ever more confrontational about it's past as opposed to feeling any shame?
 

realist

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jfuh said:
Why is it that Japan till this day continues to deny if not flat out lie that it commited mass murdering in Korea and China in WWII?
Now Japan wants to change it's constitution and throw out article 9 all together.
Why is it that this economic super power nation has no balls to face up with it's past and make peace with it's neighbors. Or for that matter now have this thriving nationalist movement that is ever more confrontational about it's past as opposed to feeling any shame?
Maybe they feel that the U.S. was responsible by forcing the country to open it's doors to the markets we wanted and our influence back when we sent our fleet to establish trade with Commodore Perry etc.? In other words, U.S. interference created this reactive nationalism that raped and plundered other countries?
 

jfuh

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realist said:
Maybe they feel that the U.S. was responsible by forcing the country to open it's doors to the markets we wanted and our influence back when we sent our fleet to establish trade with Commodore Perry etc.? In other words, U.S. interference created this reactive nationalism that raped and plundered other countries?
I'm not going to disagree at all with this in terms of the US supporting this Nationalism. However this is merely scapegoat that Japan has been using for the ages to how Japan is the victim, it had no choice but to invade China and Korea and all other Asian nations. It wasn't thier fault it was the fault of the western powers that forced thier hand.
 

Inuyasha

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In a way it was about the Western powers attempting to control Asia. That cannot be denied. The Japanese idea of the "East Asia Sphere of Co-operation" was an excellent idea from the point of view of Asian nations but here is a case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", Had the Japanese not been so racist toward the rest of the Asians and had they done what they intended they could have come out smelling like a rose or a chrysanthemum as the case may be. But they went wrong in their barbaric treatment of their fellow Asians. Japan could have won over China in a minute. Chang was a nationalist dictator with similar politics as Japan and together they could have defeated Mao and kept the Western powers at bay. Japan's "go it alone" strategy was foolish and cost them what could have been a future for Asia.
 

jfuh

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Inuyasha said:
In a way it was about the Western powers attempting to control Asia. That cannot be denied. The Japanese idea of the "East Asia Sphere of Co-operation" was an excellent idea from the point of view of Asian nations but here is a case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", Had the Japanese not been so racist toward the rest of the Asians and had they done what they intended they could have come out smelling like a rose or a chrysanthemum as the case may be. But they went wrong in their barbaric treatment of their fellow Asians. Japan could have won over China in a minute. Chang was a nationalist dictator with similar politics as Japan and together they could have defeated Mao and kept the Western powers at bay. Japan's "go it alone" strategy was foolish and cost them what could have been a future for Asia.
I think the question here though is why Japan? Why any natino to control other nations? It strated from Japan not wanting to be controled by western colonials, but then ended up being the very thing that they depised, if not worse, much worse. Till this day completely denying any involvement completely re-writing history and dishonoring the true victims.
 

Inuyasha

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jfuh said:
I think the question here though is why Japan? Why any natino to control other nations? It strated from Japan not wanting to be controled by western colonials, but then ended up being the very thing that they depised, if not worse, much worse. Till this day completely denying any involvement completely re-writing history and dishonoring the true victims.
I agree completely and the question you raise is interesting and key to the era. "Why Japan." I believe there are many reasons but i'll come back to that later. I have to do some work...nuts.
 

realist

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jfuh said:
I'm not going to disagree at all with this in terms of the US supporting this Nationalism. However this is merely scapegoat that Japan has been using for the ages to how Japan is the victim, it had no choice but to invade China and Korea and all other Asian nations. It wasn't thier fault it was the fault of the western powers that forced thier hand.
If that is Japan's reasoning, I agree that you can only play the victim for so long. I think the U.S. might have to share some of the blame being so greedy, however we can blame our teacher Great Britain for that I suppose?
 

Inuyasha

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For those who are interested in this to a deeper degree there are a couple of books that really show the Japanese mindset at the beginning of the war.
"The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" by Ruth Benedict
" The Japanese Are Like That" by Ichiro Kawasaki

They are old books but still valuable. Amazon has both used.

In part, one reason for the behavior that the Japanese exhibited in building their empire was their particular "insularism". It worked as an inferiority complex. Just the opposite of the British whose insularism gave it a superiority complex which is still evident today and still expressed by her former colonies that are predominately Anglo-Saxon like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and of course the US.

Today of course after their meteoric rise to power the Japanese of today have pretty much lost that complex so it is more difficult to see although there are probably still some vestiges of it even now.
 

realist

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Inuyasha said:
For those who are interested in this to a deeper degree there are a couple of books that really show the Japanese mindset at the beginning of the war.
"The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" by Ruth Benedict
" The Japanese Are Like That" by Ichiro Kawasaki

They are old books but still valuable. Amazon has both used.

In part, one reason for the behavior that the Japanese exhibited in building their empire was their particular "insularism". It worked as an inferiority complex. Just the opposite of the British whose insularism gave it a superiority complex which is still evident today and still expressed by her former colonies that are predominately Anglo-Saxon like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and of course the US.

Today of course after their meteoric rise to power the Japanese of today have pretty much lost that complex so it is more difficult to see although there are probably still some vestiges of it even now.
I'm curious if the Japanese were invading other countries prior to the U.S. opening up their country to trade/markets etc.? Did the west instill in them this ambition? I'll check out insularism. I assumed that this might have something to do with Japan's actions being an island with limited resources. It's interesting how they have this inferiority complex versus Britain's superiority complex.
 

Inuyasha

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Japan tried twice , unsuccessfully to invade Korea in the late 1500 under Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Before that the Japanese never invaded any other nation.

From 1600 to the opening of Japan in 1867 the country was ruled by the Tokugawa Shoguns. They maintained a strict "close door" policy until the United States forced them to open the nation to trade and commerce. During that era the Japanese were not allowed to travel abroad and foreigners were not allowed to travel in Japan. The Portuguese were allowed to trade during that time but only at Nagasaki. The introduced Japan to firearms and other western inventions.

In part the reason for Japanese expantionism was the need for raw materials and food stuffs.

For a brief but consice history of Japan try this link.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e641.html
 

realist

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Inuyasha said:
Japan tried twice , unsuccessfully to invade Korea in the late 1500 under Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Before that the Japanese never invaded any other nation.

From 1600 to the opening of Japan in 1867 the country was ruled by the Tokugawa Shoguns. They maintained a strict "close door" policy until the United States forced them to open the nation to trade and commerce. During that era the Japanese were not allowed to travel abroad and foreigners were not allowed to travel in Japan. The Portuguese were allowed to trade during that time but only at Nagasaki. The introduced Japan to firearms and other western inventions.

In part the reason for Japanese expantionism was the need for raw materials and food stuffs.

For a brief but consice history of Japan try this link.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e641.html
Interesting. From the link it appears that Japan needed to trade due to tensions within the country. I think the U.S. just sped up the inevitable?
 

jfuh

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realist said:
Interesting. From the link it appears that Japan needed to trade due to tensions within the country. I think the U.S. just sped up the inevitable?
A very similar situation to today. Rising nationalism, rising unemployment, and a push by Cheny Inc. for more militarism.
 

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What do they risk losing if they fess up and accept that their past is full of bad things?
 

Inuyasha

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goligoth said:
What do they risk losing if they fess up and accept that their past is full of bad things?
Many Japanese do recognize what happened in China and elsewhere. The official position is the denial. Some just attribute it to national pride and face saving. Yet this is really not a part of the Japanese character. It's an enigma to me unless you see it like this.


In discussing family and social values with my father-in-law who was Japanese and spent the war in prison, I saw a lot of things in Japanese society that would benefit us in the west if we adopted certain things from them. But that's not the question here. At one point I said "Well from that point of view maybe the world would be better if Japan had won the war." This was in 1969.
He then said. "But the war isn't over yet." I didn't realize what he meant until about 1975 when Japan's economy really took off and the "conquered" the US markets. They should have thought of that before they bombed Pearl Harbor and they could have saved us all a lot of grief. Maybe they are still fighting the war in some strange way. I can't figure it out for the life of me.
 

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Inuyasha said:
Many Japanese do recognize what happened in China and elsewhere. The official position is the denial.
This is the problem. Interesting though is that it used to be the other way around. The people at top wouldn't dare mutter a word of denial, but just humbly accept blame. Nowadays there's a strong nationalist effort to block out any blame, an infact turn around the sentiment to themselves and how awful it was to be invaded.... extreemly ironic. It even goes as far to senior staff officials of the prime minister to suggest that "comfort women" should be proud to have served the imperial army.

Inuyasha said:
In discussing family and social values with my father-in-law who was Japanese and spent the war in prison, I saw a lot of things in Japanese society that would benefit us in the west if we adopted certain things from them. But that's not the question here. At one point I said "Well from that point of view maybe the world would be better if Japan had won the war." This was in 1969.
He then said. "But the war isn't over yet." I didn't realize what he meant until about 1975 when Japan's economy really took off and the "conquered" the US markets. They should have thought of that before they bombed Pearl Harbor and they could have saved us all a lot of grief. Maybe they are still fighting the war in some strange way. I can't figure it out for the life of me.
I believe they are. Now that they have "beaten" the US during the glorious 80's, they're turning their attention back to thier old asian adversary. Ironically though is it seems that events of the 1910's and 1920's are repeating again.
 

Inuyasha

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jfuh said:
I believe they are. Now that they have "beaten" the US during the glorious 80's, they're turning their attention back to thier old asian adversary. Ironically though is it seems that events of the 1910's and 1920's are repeating again.
I think you've hit on something here. The post war generation is silent on the matter for the most part but the next generation which will soon start coming to power outright ignores it and is much more nationalistic. My wife has three nephews. They are not very pro-American and in her generation there is admiration for the US but also fear. The fear is what worries me.

Perhaps the Japanese are beginning to think as you say. It certainly seems so. Gut i don't think they will express the feelings of new found nationalism in a bellicose manner. Do you?
 

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Do any of you feel that this denial is unconsciously rooted in the "victim" status that the Japanese feel for being the first and only victims of a nuclear attack. Do you think that because of this they may feel justified in erasing this from their collective memory? That they have paid for their crimes committed in China and the rest of Asia.
 

jfuh

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Inuyasha said:
I think you've hit on something here. The post war generation is silent on the matter for the most part but the next generation which will soon start coming to power outright ignores it and is much more nationalistic. My wife has three nephews. They are not very pro-American and in her generation there is admiration for the US but also fear. The fear is what worries me.

Perhaps the Japanese are beginning to think as you say. It certainly seems so. Gut i don't think they will express the feelings of new found nationalism in a bellicose manner. Do you?
What worries me is throwing out article 9 so blatently when relations with all it's asian neighbors is so high. What is this supposed to accomplish.
 

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Inuyasha said:
Do any of you feel that this denial is unconsciously rooted in the "victim" status that the Japanese feel for being the first and only victims of a nuclear attack. Do you think that because of this they may feel justified in erasing this from their collective memory? That they have paid for their crimes committed in China and the rest of Asia.
I think it's to scape goat the issue that they caused themselves to be nuked. Saving face for the "royal family", saving face for the wr criminal legislatures (yes there are those war criminals released and were in office). And for the most part to justify thier militarization and so on. I think it's cowardly to not face up and instead act the opposite. Hell it's dispicable.
 

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Maybe we should all take a page from japans book...if we all dropped our guns at the same time and worried about things that mattered instead of what our neighbors think...The economy would be great and our tech would be even better...the end of disease and well war....

Of course japan was forced to drop their guns...and I suppose that the theory of "why drop your guns when you can shoot them" will always reign...arg to the stupid mentality of us humans...we just like guns too much.......... :gunsmilie :shoot :gunner: :blastem:
 

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A couple of reasons the denial still exists today, and how it started from it's roots.

America was afraid Japan would fall to communism, it desperately needed allies against the soviet.

The relative and people of same ethnicity to the victims of the Japanese did not have political lobbying power in Congress during postwar, the Jews did.

Even though More Russians, Europeans, and Asian civilians died during WWII, the Jews are associated with the world holocaust, and people know more about those 6~ million death than the 30~million asian deaths, 20~russian deaths, etc. All civilian.

People don't care about Asians, well the Western world doesn't.

Tensions are rising, and our deplomacy is invaluable right now, no one cares about denied holocausts, and the Asians don't have power in the US. Look at affirmative action.

However, if China does become a superpower, it's first task will be getting revenge, pray for the people of Japan... the people are still angry, and their anger is well justified.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima was a good decision to end the war and save lives, the Japanese propoganda machine has brainwashed most of the current population, the gov't screens the textbooks, there's mass censorship.

If we dismantled the Japanese gov't, it might've falled under communism, that was the fear of us, and plus our politicians at that time did not have pressure from Asian lobbyists.

Imagine the Nazis are still in power of Germany today, it's the parallel situation in Japan.

Oh well, screw that, the Chinese will get even soon.;)
 
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