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Japan wants an apology

Jack Hays said:
The US did no wrong.
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I know better than to expect that people in this thread would think any apology should be forthcoming. So too do the Japanese, who have already expressed that they would frankly be happier if nuclear weapons were just eliminated altogether. If they were to ask my advice (and honestly, who wouldn't?) I would advise them to be pragmatic and settle for the apology, because their desire truly is an example of "spitting in one hand and wishing with the other, and seeing which fills first."
 
Jack Hays said:
Reminds me of an old joke.

Q: Why did we drop two nuclear bombs on Japan?
A: That's all we had.
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That's why conservative comedians suck.
 
Cardinal said:
I know better than to expect that people in this thread would think any apology should be forthcoming. So too do the Japanese, who have already expressed that they would frankly be happier if nuclear weapons were just eliminated altogether. If they were to ask my advice (and honestly, who wouldn't?) I would advise them to be pragmatic and settle for the apology, because their desire truly is an example of "spitting in one hand and wishing with the other, and seeing which fills first."
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The bombs were necessary to win the war, and saved lives.
 
Howler63 said:
Wrong.

Taking an example to an absurd level, such as suggesting that we could kill all Japanese and not lose a soldier (ridiculous), is the very definition of reductio ad absurdum.

Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to absurdity"; pl.: reductiones ad absurdum), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin: "argument to absurdity", pl.: argumenta ad absurdum), is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial, or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance
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That's extremely non-standard terminology (e.g. see this, which is a standard authority on philosophy terms doesn't even discuss this, it only discusses the definition that I gave). Setting that aside, even if you take your definition, you haven't done anything to demonstrate why what I said falls under your definition. You need to actually provide reasoning.
 
People are saying that an apology wouldn't do anything. :shrug: Saying sorry doesn't cost anything either, what's the issue?
 
Cardinal said:
Actually I'm curious: are civilians who work in, say, a munitions factory, fair game for destruction? I honestly don't know where the line is drawn by the geneva conventions as far as the bombing of civilian targets is concerned.
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I don't know about the Geneva Convention. I do know if you do not target the people supporting the war effort you probably will not win the war. You need to take our civilian ships bringing oil, steel, and all other equipment that supports military of the country you are at war with. Do you have any idea how many civilian ships were sunk by all parties during WW2. What is the difference between a ship and its crew full of coats and boots to keep the military fighting or the factory and the people making those boots and coats. Germany as well as Iraq put antiaircraft guns atop of hospitals, schools, and other civilian buildings with the hope we would not take them out. The German people knew those guns were there endangering their children and could care less until the bombs fell. Japan would have kept fighting had they not feared the Russians entering into the war. They knew the Russians would take their country and never give it back.
 
Nilly said:
People are saying that an apology wouldn't do anything. :shrug: Saying sorry doesn't cost anything either, what's the issue?
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What makes it really silly is that the US is not offering, nor are the leaders of Japan(or any significant portion of the people) asking for one. It is all much ado about nothing.
 
They want an apology? Here it is.

I would like to apologize to the dead American soldiers for not getting the nukes ready by December 7, 1941, in sufficient numbers to turn Japan on December 8 into to a sheet of glass.

I would also like to apologize to the American taxpayers - who were forced to pay for the development and the construction of the above mentioned nukes - for not seizing Japan, cutting it into smaller pieces and selling said pieces to Russia, China, Korea, Singapore, and the Philippines.

Further, my apologies to the American public for the stupidity of having so many warships at one location during wartime, and for not charging the morons responsible for this fatal decision with a criminal disregard for the rules of war and human life.

Thank you very much.
 
reinoe said:
I knew it. Obama is such a weak and feckless idiot he'll probably go and apologize. No word yet on when the Japanese will apologize for the Rape Of Nanking or attacking Pearl Harbor.
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It took them 50 years to apologize for enslaving women from at least 10 countries to be used as comfort women ( basically enslaved women who were used for sex ) from the WWII era.
 
FieldTheorist said:
That's extremely non-standard terminology (e.g. see this, which is a standard authority on philosophy terms doesn't even discuss this, it only discusses the definition that I gave). Setting that aside, even if you take your definition, you haven't done anything to demonstrate why what I said falls under your definition. You need to actually provide reasoning.
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It's quite simple. The fallacy appears when you use the real example of possibly saving a million lives (a real possibility) to the absurd example of killing everyone in Japan (impossible absurdity) to disprove the original assertion (the nuke wasn't a war crime)
 
Howler63 said:
It's quite simple. The fallacy appears when you use the real example of possibly saving a million lives (a real possibility) to the absurd example of killing everyone in Japan (impossible absurdity) to disprove the original assertion (the nuke wasn't a war crime)
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Okay, you can't even be bothered to address the actual logic of what I said or note the actual argument that I made, so we're done here.
 
I don't see why we shouldn't apologize for our war crimes.
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They are only crimes if you lose. Don't think for second if push came to shove and the US was faced with devastation, the US would not lob one on Peking.

"The past belongs to the righteous, the future to the warriors."

The Japanese were the victims of superior technology. The same may happen to us if we don't wake up.
 
chuckiechan said:
They are only crimes if you lose. Don't think for second if push came to shove and the US was faced with devastation, the US would not lob one on Peking.

"The past belongs to the righteous, the future to the warriors."

The Japanese were the victims of superior technology. The same may happen to us if we don't wake up.
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The Japs were the victims of their medieval "emperor is god".
 
legalimmigrant said:
The Japs were the victims of their medieval "emperor is god".
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The emperor had severely limited power by the time WW2 came around. The military basically ran the war. It really does pay to learn about a topic before offering your opinions on it.
 
Imperial Japan went through a fascist phase in the 1930s similar to Italy under Mussolini and the Army General Staff was controlled by the two fascist factions seeking to establish a military government. Hirohito opposed these fascist factions and without him, Japan could not have surrendered even after Hiroshima. The Army insisted on the continuation of the war after the atomic bombings, while Hirohito said he had enough. Today, there may be some right-wing extremists in the military and the nation's future could be in jeopardy, if the military is taken over by these extremists who are armed and dangerous.

The Imperial Way Faction (kodoha) was a nationalist political formation that served as the political wing of the Japanese military. Seeking to establish a military government, it was mainly supported by junior officers of the Imperial Japanese Army. The "Imperial Way Faction" represented the principal right-wing political movement in the Empire of Japan from some point in the 1930s, emerging from a welter of similar groups and secret societies. In 1941, as a political party, it achieved the goal of real power. Its members led all political and military national efforts during the Pacific War. It was abolished, with the other nationalist organizations, by the Allied occupation authorities in 1945.

In the army, the two major groups were the Tosei (Control) faction, of which Majo Gen Hideko Tojo was a prominent member, and which favored a strong army that did not mix into politics. The more radical Kodo (Imperial Way) group Kodaha (Imperial Benevolent Rule or Action Group), led by Colonel (later General) Sadao Araki, wanted a "restoration" with the Emperor acting as a god, free of political advisers, bureaucrats, and business interests, with the army as his main support. The Kodo faction was condemned not only by army headquarters but by the Emperor himself.

The Kodo group believed that the so-called "Showa Restoration" [cp. Meiji Restoration] could only be effected by means of riots and the call-out of troops. The fundamental principle which they respected was the role of the Emperor as an Absolute Being. In the Kodo view, the Japanese political scene could be cleaned up if only the villainous court retainers were eliminated. Figuratively speaking, after the clouds were gone, the sun could once again shine down. Fundamental to both factions, however, was the common belief that national defense must be strengthened through the reform of national politics.

The Imperial Way Group advocated the Strike-North policy while the Control Clique fought for the Strike-South policy. Although the Strike-South people were the minority in the establishment, they had the backing of the industrialists who had foreign interests in the South Seas; and by the priests of the imperial family who believe that Emperor Jimmu, the progenitor of the imperial family, had come from the south.

Kodo (Way of the Emperor)
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Redress said:
The emperor had severely limited power by the time WW2 came around. The military basically ran the war. It really does pay to learn about a topic before offering your opinions on it.
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From bbc.co.uk:

The end of divinity

"When the Emperor gave up his divinity on the orders of the USA, in the Imperial rescript of January 1 1946,...

Yeah, it really does pay to learn about a topic before offering your opinions.
 
legalimmigrant said:
From bbc.co.uk:

The end of divinity

"When the Emperor gave up his divinity on the orders of the USA, in the Imperial rescript of January 1 1946,...

Yeah, it really does pay to learn about a topic before offering your opinions.
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The divinity aspect was mostly in name only, and did not come with unlimited power. Therefore, the people where not a victim of his supposedly divine nature. Your failure to understand the government of Japan, while thinking you do based on a minor piece of trivia, is why you do not really understand the events of WW2.
 
Redress said:
The divinity aspect was mostly in name only, and did not come with unlimited power. Therefore, the people where not a victim of his supposedly divine nature. Your failure to understand the government of Japan, while thinking you do based on a minor piece of trivia, is why you do not really understand the events of WW2.
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My understanding of Japan is just fine and it is yours that needs a major overhaul.

From Wikipedia:

During the first part of the Showa era, according to the Meiji Constitution, the Emperor had the "supreme command of the Army and the Navy" (Article 11). Hirohito was thus legally supreme commander of the Imperial General Headquarters, founded in 1937 and by which the military decisions were made.

According to historians Yoshiaki Yoshimi and Seiya Matsuno, Hirohito authorized by specific orders, transmitted by the Chief of staff of the Army such as Prince Kan'in or Hajime Sugiyama, the use of chemical weapons against Chinese civilians and soldiers. For example, he authorized the use of toxic gas on 375 separate occasions during the invasion of Wuhan in 1938.[35] Such weapons were also authorized during the invasion of Changde.

Your failure to understand the government of Japan is why you do not really understand the events of WW2.

I hope you enjoyed the above as it was the last time I am responding to you. Bye.
 
legalimmigrant said:
My understanding of Japan is just fine and it is yours that needs a major overhaul.

From Wikipedia:

During the first part of the Showa era, according to the Meiji Constitution, the Emperor had the "supreme command of the Army and the Navy" (Article 11). Hirohito was thus legally supreme commander of the Imperial General Headquarters, founded in 1937 and by which the military decisions were made.

The Shōwa Emperor dressed as commander of the Imperial General Headquarters. The primary sources such as the "Sugiyama memo", and the diaries of Fumimaro Konoe and Koichi Kido, describe in detail the many informal meetings the Emperor had with his chiefs of staff and ministers. These documents show he was kept informed of all military operations and frequently questioned his senior staff and asked for changes.

According to historians Yoshiaki Yoshimi and Seiya Matsuno, Hirohito authorized by specific orders, transmitted by the Chief of staff of the Army such as Prince Kan'in or Hajime Sugiyama, the use of chemical weapons against Chinese civilians and soldiers. For example, he authorized the use of toxic gas on 375 separate occasions during the invasion of Wuhan in 1938.[35] Such weapons were also authorized during the invasion of Changde.

Your failure to understand the government of Japan is why you do not really understand the events of WW2.
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No, your understanding is very flawed. Hirohito's authority over the military was on paper. It was not in fact. While yes, he did ask for and get some changes, they where small, and meant to make him feel important. He did not have operational control, nor was he able to(without perhaps a major fight that could have toppled the government) determine who the military would operate against. It was the second Konoe cabinet that made the actual decisions that led to war.
 
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