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Japan to convert helicopter carrier Izumo into aircraft carrier

The Izumo is too small.

Japan needs to build a real aircraft carrier class...circa 80-100,000 tons.
 
PoS said:
With reports of the Chinese developing an anti-carrier long range missile Im beginning to wonder if the carrier itself has gone the way of the battleship.
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Carriers are indefensible. Too large of a target. Strike within a quarter mile of a decent missile and they're done. Very profitable for Huntington of the MIC. They're a mobile island of weaponry to project a military, but a victim of the times. Missiles, torpedoes, tethered undersea weapons, stealth aircraft, parked death subs, drone subs, GPS targetting and the list goes on.
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Tangmo said:
Japan is to the USA now what Britain has been. The two are same or similar to USA national security and global stability.

That is, just as Britain the island nation is the US closest ally off the continent of Europe and the Atlantic, Japan is the island nation closest ally of US off the continent of Asia and the Pacific. The western Pacific most specifically but also at the East Sea through the South China Sea on out to India. India is now a US strategic defense partner btw. SK is the US close ally peninsula nation situated next to Japan, Russia, NK, China. Then there's Taiwan which is well self-defended and prepared to burn CCP Boyz on their own land should they attempt and invasion.

Don't look now Fagan but Woodrow Wilson promised to make the world safe for democracy yet we're still at it. The reason can be found by looking around the world from then to now, to include Russia for a hundred years now and China, NK plus Iran. A major reason you're not a prosperous man Fagan is that you keep going short. And coming up shorter.
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Woodrow Wilson admitted selling out the USA to a Central Bank and 100 years after Wilson we still don't have a democracy. That's attested by the facts that we have had 5 presidents with less than the majority vote. If I were you I'd short the market. Now!
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DaveFagan said:
Woodrow Wilson admitted selling out the USA to a Central Bank and 100 years after Wilson we still don't have a democracy. That's attested by the facts that we have had 5 presidents with less than the majority vote. If I were you I'd short the market. Now!
/
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I've been short on Trump and His Fanboys as it is. What I'm long on is cigarettes and blindfolds where there's a fortune to be made. Long because in a democracy the wheels of justice move slowly. But surely. There are enough walls already for justice to be served.
 
Tangmo said:
I've been short on Trump and His Fanboys as it is. What I'm long on is cigarettes and blindfolds where there's a fortune to be made. Long because in a democracy the wheels of justice move slowly. But surely. There are enough walls already for justice to be served.
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I advised my son that there would be a great market for those left handed cigarettes and he's making a killing. The public seems to be wearing blindfolds, but I can't see how to get into that market. Metaphorically speaking it is why I am on this forum.
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DaveFagan said:
Carriers are indefensible. Too large of a target. Strike within a quarter mile of a decent missile and they're done. Very profitable for Huntington of the MIC. They're a mobile island of weaponry to project a military, but a victim of the times. Missiles, torpedoes, tethered undersea weapons, stealth aircraft, parked death subs, drone subs, GPS targetting and the list goes on.
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You seem to have missed or misread my post #22.

You might also consider googling "China: Psychological Warfare."

Check out Sun Tzu also. Sun lost his war btw. The reason Sun lost his War of the Seven Kingdoms is that Sun Tzu failed to follow his own advice and teaching, which is to win without fighting. Chinese must win without fighting because any time China has to fight they get whupped. They can only defeat each other over there.

Hence to win without firing a shot. The snafu the CCP Boyz in Beijing miss is that it is impossible to gain control over the number one targeted enemy without firing a shot. A lot of shots in fact. And China's historical record in this regard is almost non existent. So we get the focus and emphasis on Sun Tzu who lost his war because he fought.


Global Politics Winning Without Fighting: The Chinese Psychological Warfare Challenge

Psychological warfare operations are integral to the broad concept of information warfare (xinxi zhanzheng). A product of the Information Age, information warfare is the struggle to dominate the generation and flow of information in order to enhance and support one’s own strategic goals while degrading and constraining those of an opponent. The ability to triumph in future “Local Wars Under Informationized Conditions”—the most likely form of wars in the Information Age—rests upon the ability to secure “information dominance (zhi xinxi quan).” This in turn requires the ability to collect, manage, and exploit accurate information more quickly than an opponent.

Information dominance rests on two primary factors: modern information technology, which is integral to information collection and transmission, and the ability to degrade the quality of information, whether by slowing down transmission or by introducing false or inaccurate data. But in the Chinese conception of psychological warfare, the users of information—both high-level decision-makers and lower-level policy implementers (individual soldiers, clerks, etc.)—are as important as the computers and networks and the software that runs them. Efforts to secure information dominance, therefore, will target not only the physical information infrastructure and the data that pass through it, but also the human agents that interact with those data, especially those who are making decisions.

https://www.heritage.org/global-pol...g-the-chinese-psychological-warfare-challenge


Putin likewise. Kim Jong Un for sure. Trump is of course their fellow bacteria set upon us.
 
DaveFagan said:
I advised my son that there would be a great market for those left handed cigarettes and he's making a killing. The public seems to be wearing blindfolds, but I can't see how to get into that market. Metaphorically speaking it is why I am on this forum.
/
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You and Fledermaus.
 
When I first saw this thread I read japan converts helicopter, and I had my hopes high being the japanese love of robots that it would be a giant fighting robot to shake up warfare, but my dreams were crushed when I clicked on the thread and read the full title.
 
DaveFagan said:
Woodrow Wilson admitted selling out the USA to a Central Bank and 100 years after Wilson we still don't have a democracy. That's attested by the facts that we have had 5 presidents with less than the majority vote. If I were you I'd short the market. Now!
/
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Minority election - > ? - > ? - > Federal Reserve.....

Right.

More history ignorance.
 
DaveFagan said:
Carriers are indefensible. Too large of a target. Strike within a quarter mile of a decent missile and they're done. Very profitable for Huntington of the MIC. They're a mobile island of weaponry to project a military, but a victim of the times. Missiles, torpedoes, tethered undersea weapons, stealth aircraft, parked death subs, drone subs, GPS targetting and the list goes on.
/
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Carriers are effective against Third World opponents, but against nations that have ballistic missiles, an air force and fast attack submarines, they will be sunk easily. Good point, Dave.
 
Well, the Izumo isn't going to be a "full-fledged" aircraft carrier. Not just yet. The headline below the video is a bit OTT on that point. As the text notes, Japan hasn't any mid-air refueling capability. Still however, its number one ally the US does have it and plenty of it to go around if need be.

The video focuses on the F-35B operating on and off its US carrier while the text to the video focuses on the Izumo and Japan's decision and program to upgrade the helicopter carrier submarine destroyer Izumo into a small carrier.






US Military News
Published on Dec 12, 2018

Japan to Convert Izumo-Class Into F-35-Carrying Aircraft Carrier

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force plans to upgrade one of its flattops into a full-fledged aircraft carrier.

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s (JMSDF) largest warship, the so-called helicopter destroyer JS Izumo, the lead ship of the Izumo-class, will be converted into an aircraft carrier capable of launching the F-35B–the U.S. Marine Corps variant of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter capable of vertical or short takeoffs and vertical landings (STOVL) without requiring a catapult launcher—from its flight deck, according to Japan’s new draft defense plan presented on December 11.

The revised version of the National Defense Program Guidelines (NDPG), which set out Japan Self Defense Force (JSDF) capability targets over a period of about 10 years, stated that the government will “enable fighter jets to be operated from existing warships, if necessary, to improve the flexibility of their operation.” The NDPG furthermore re-designates the JS Izumo as a multi-purpose escort destroyer to comply with Japan’s pacifist constitution that limits JSDF capabilities to self-defense.

“The Izumo was originally designed as a multipurpose escort ship, so it wouldn’t pose any threat to other countries if fighter jets are deployed on it,” Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya was quoted as saying by The Japan Times on December 11. Iwaya also reiterated that the warship would not be an “attack aircraft carrier” capable of offensive military operations. Furthermore, to assuage its junior coalition partner, Komeito, the ruling Liberal Democratic Party stressed that the F-35Bs operating from the JS Izumo’s flight deck cannot serve as long-distance attack platforms given that the JSDF lacks mid-air refueling capabilities. Additionally, no F-35B squadron is expected to be permanently assigned to the new carrier.
 
PoS said:
Carriers are effective against Third World opponents, but against nations that have ballistic missiles, an air force and fast attack submarines, they will be sunk easily. Good point, Dave.
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But then we're into WW III territory.


The USA is never going to use CVNs to bomb China or Russia.
 
Tangmo said:
Well, the Izumo isn't going to be a "full-fledged" aircraft carrier. Not just yet. The headline below the video is a bit OTT on that point. As the text notes, Japan hasn't any mid-air refueling capability. Still however, its number one ally the US does have it and plenty of it to go around if need be.

The video focuses on the F-35B operating on and off its US carrier while the text to the video focuses on the Izumo and Japan's decision and program to upgrade the helicopter carrier submarine destroyer Izumo into a small carrier.






US Military News
Published on Dec 12, 2018

Japan to Convert Izumo-Class Into F-35-Carrying Aircraft Carrier

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force plans to upgrade one of its flattops into a full-fledged aircraft carrier.

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s (JMSDF) largest warship, the so-called helicopter destroyer JS Izumo, the lead ship of the Izumo-class, will be converted into an aircraft carrier capable of launching the F-35B–the U.S. Marine Corps variant of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter capable of vertical or short takeoffs and vertical landings (STOVL) without requiring a catapult launcher—from its flight deck, according to Japan’s new draft defense plan presented on December 11.

The revised version of the National Defense Program Guidelines (NDPG), which set out Japan Self Defense Force (JSDF) capability targets over a period of about 10 years, stated that the government will “enable fighter jets to be operated from existing warships, if necessary, to improve the flexibility of their operation.” The NDPG furthermore re-designates the JS Izumo as a multi-purpose escort destroyer to comply with Japan’s pacifist constitution that limits JSDF capabilities to self-defense.

“The Izumo was originally designed as a multipurpose escort ship, so it wouldn’t pose any threat to other countries if fighter jets are deployed on it,” Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya was quoted as saying by The Japan Times on December 11. Iwaya also reiterated that the warship would not be an “attack aircraft carrier” capable of offensive military operations. Furthermore, to assuage its junior coalition partner, Komeito, the ruling Liberal Democratic Party stressed that the F-35Bs operating from the JS Izumo’s flight deck cannot serve as long-distance attack platforms given that the JSDF lacks mid-air refueling capabilities. Additionally, no F-35B squadron is expected to be permanently assigned to the new carrier.
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The Izumo class is slightly smaller in size than the US Wasp class. It will likely be able to carry around 20 f35s
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The Izumo class is slightly smaller in size than the US Wasp class. It will likely be able to carry around 20 f35s
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As stated in the video -- and elsewhere.

Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force Helicopter Destroyer of Submarines the JS Kaga

image.jpg

The helicopter destroyer JS Kaga at the Japan Maritime Self-Defense base in Yokosuka, Japan, Thursday, March 23, 2017. It's still unofficial but Tokyo wants Kaga to be the second of two big ASW ships to be converted to small aircraft carriers. TYLER HLAVAC/STARS AND STRIPES

US Marines have done landing and liftoff exercises on the Izumo using the Osprey while Izumo has also practice launched Apache helos which make it similar to the USN Iwo Jima class.

Izumo is central to Japan's strong ASW capacity and capabilities that are second only to USN. Japan's ASW can afford to part with the Izumo which can carry up to 14 sub hunter helos or up to 20 of the F-35B.

While conversion of Izumo to a small carrier has yet to begin, the same same vessel JS Kaga is expected to become the second small carrier of the JMSDF four flotillas (fleets) once the announcement is made at a later date. That would make it up to 40 of the F-35B. Japan has 120 of the F-35 on order. It would also leave two flotillas without an ASW flat top but with plenty of air cover and surface protection.

While CCP Boyz in Beijing are improving and expanding their own lagging ASW, they remain focused on building subs, especially nuclear missile Uboats that will provide a second strike capability.
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
The Izumo class is slightly smaller in size than the US Wasp class. It will likely be able to carry around 20 f35s
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Just because a ship has aircraft on it, that does not mean it is an "Aircraft Carrier".

The original Iowa class battleships had 2 catapults for 3 airplanes. Does that mean they were "Aircraft Carriers"?

The Soviet-Russian Kiev class of ship was not even considered by the Soviets to be an "Aircraft Carrier". They themselves considered it a "Heavy aircraft carrying missile cruiser".

This is because what determines the title and classification of a ship is the mission it serves. If the primary mission of a ship is to carry aircraft into a combat theater and use those aircraft to conduct strikes, then it is indeed an aircraft carrier.

Now for the Kiev class, that is not the case. It was a heavy missile cruiser, that carried 200 missiles into combat, and those missiles were it's primary strike tool. It only has 12 aircraft, only intended to provide a minimal combat air patrol in defense of the ship.

And the Kuznetsov class ship that China is just a newer version of the Kiev. Once again, the Soviets considered it a heavy missile cruiser with some aircraft, and that is all it will ever be.

You can call a Ticonderoga class Missile Cruiser a PT boat because it has torpedoes. But just calling it one does not make it a PT boat.

You can call a submarine an "Amphibious Transport Ship" because they have been used to transport people to make ground landings, but that does not make it a transport ship.

No, this is no matter what anybody else thinks a helicopter destroyer. The prime mission is ASW operations, and it can handle a small (6-10) number of fixed wing aircraft.

With such a small complement, there is no way this is for anything other than to provide a minimal CAP over this ship and it's fleet. Just like the Kiev and Kunetsov class of ships.

And this is also why the USS Iwo Jima (LHD-7) and USS Iwo Jima (LPH-2) were not "aircraft carriers". Yes, they could carry aircraft, but that was never their mission.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The Izumo class is slightly smaller in size than the US Wasp class. It will likely be able to carry around 20 f35s
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Experts believe it is going to be 6-10. The hangar deck is not designed to hold very many fighters.

This is because it is primarily an ASW ship, with at least 9 helicopters dedicated to ASW and SAR operations, as well as other aircraft that are needed for the various missions it will need to accomplish (ranging from transport helicopters to the V-22 Osprey).

Fighters like the F-35 may have their uses, but they are generally piss-poor against submarines. And that is what this ship is designed to go after.

However, I would not be surprised if within the next decade they have the closest thing to a Carrier they have had since 1945.

For several years now Japan has been interested in possibly buying a Wasp class amphibious transport. This is a much more flexible class of ship. Either embarking with a complement of almost 1,800 Marines and 6 VSTOL fighters, or without the Marines and with 20 VSTOL fighters. Or in whatever combination of the 2 that is needed.

Now if they were to buy a Wasp class and state they never intend to use it as a transport ship, then they might indeed finally have an "Aircraft Carrier".

https://web.archive.org/web/2014072...ets-out-plans-to-buy-amphibious-assault-ships
 
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