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I've looked at life from both sides now...

Compatibilist

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... and still somehow I can't decide if the roles of T and Z were reversed would we be talking about this??

In other words, what if Z was a black man same age... and T was white same age under the exact same circumstances. I don't know but suspect we wouldn't.

I feel the need to lighten things up here:

 

soot

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Of course we wouldn't.

If a grown black man had gunned down a white kid walking home with a can of soda and a box of candy the black man would already be sitting on death row quietly working on his first appeal with his public defender well out of the public spotlight.
 

ecofarm

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Yes, we would. The real issue here is SYG law. Racism and race baiting are just side attractions for those not interested in the SYG implications. IF Z is convicted, I expect the case to be used to indict SYG law (at least, specific protocols therein). As SYG laws sweep across the country and become commonplace, the opposition will take the fight to the courtrooms and attempt to bring down the laws by chipping away at provisions provided within the laws.
 

Compatibilist

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Of course we wouldn't.

If a grown black man had gunned down a white kid walking home with a can of soda and a box of candy the black man would already be sitting on death row quietly working on his first appeal with his public defender well out of the public spotlight.
I understand your thinking but I'm just not certain that would be the case... definitely not on death row. Perhaps manslaughter, which could be end result here.

Call me naive... but I'm pretty sure this wouldn't have been a cause celeb for anyone to advocate for one side or other... No Obama comments, no Jesse/Al... therefore no national attention?
 

Fisher

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Yes, we would. The real issue here is SYG law. Racism and race baiting are just side attractions for those not interested in the SYG implications. IF Z is convicted, I expect the case to be used to indict SYG law (at least, specific protocols therein). As SYG laws sweep across the country and become commonplace, the opposition will take the fight to the courtrooms and attempt to bring down the laws by chipping away at provisions provided within the laws.
Sorry, but no we wouldn't. It was because the victim was black, all the progressives like Sharpton got on their high horse and forced FL to charge Zimmerman. You might find SYG the more interesting angle--even though SYG doesn't even apply in this case and it is classical Self-defense--but that does not change the history of how this case ended up in the national spotlight. I was hoping there would be a lot of discussion about gated communities, but nope, so I don't make an effort to follow the story--I just pick up what I pick up osmotically from the media reports.
 

Josie

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I remember when this first happened and the media was showing pictures of this cute little kid (Trayvon) and this mean-looking Zimmerman. Weren't the first pictures released of Trayvon when he was 12 or 13 instead of 17? The media and sheeple immediately convicted the "white Hispanic" Zimmerman.

If it was the other way around and it was a WHITE 17 year old with a hoodie who was shot, there's no way in hell the media would've leeched onto it and created such a mob of hoodie-wearing sheeple who had already convicted the mean-looking black man.
 

Compatibilist

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I remember when this first happened and the media was showing pictures of this cute little kid (Trayvon) and this mean-looking Zimmerman. Weren't the first pictures released of Trayvon when he was 12 or 13 instead of 17? The media and sheeple immediately convicted the "white Hispanic" Zimmerman.

If it was the other way around and it was a WHITE 17 year old with a hoodie who was shot, there's no way in hell the media would've leeched onto it and created such a mob of hoodie-wearing sheeple who had already convicted the mean-looking black man.
I tend to agree with you.
 

Grim17

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I remember when this first happened and the media was showing pictures of this cute little kid (Trayvon) and this mean-looking Zimmerman. Weren't the first pictures released of Trayvon when he was 12 or 13 instead of 17? The media and sheeple immediately convicted the "white Hispanic" Zimmerman.
They used Zimmerman's mug shot with the orange prison jumpers on... It was ridiculous
 

Josie

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They used Zimmerman's mug shot with the orange prison jumpers on... It was ridiculous
Even now on Mediaite's site the two pictures are of Zimmerman's mug shot (not smiling, looks rough) and Martin (looks happy, smiling). It's so disingenuous.
 

Lutherf

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This case is no different than most other "hot button" issues today. Common sense and the rule of law are widely cast aside in favor of populist opinion, sound bytes and tweets. The goal is no longer to be accurate, it's to get the most hits. The goal isn't to resolve the issue, it's to gain the most support for your side of the issue.

America has become a "Neverland" where growth past adolescence warrants banishment.
 

rocket88

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Sorry, but no we wouldn't. It was because the victim was black, all the progressives like Sharpton got on their high horse and forced FL to charge Zimmerman. You might find SYG the more interesting angle--even though SYG doesn't even apply in this case and it is classical Self-defense--but that does not change the history of how this case ended up in the national spotlight. I was hoping there would be a lot of discussion about gated communities, but nope, so I don't make an effort to follow the story--I just pick up what I pick up osmotically from the media reports.
Not to mention the fact that if it were the other way around you wouldn't have the Fox Nation jumping on the shooter's bandwagon.
 

What if...?

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Yes, we would. The real issue here is SYG law. Racism and race baiting are just side attractions for those not interested in the SYG implications. IF Z is convicted, I expect the case to be used to indict SYG law (at least, specific protocols therein). As SYG laws sweep across the country and become commonplace, the opposition will take the fight to the courtrooms and attempt to bring down the laws by chipping away at provisions provided within the laws.
Don't have a problem with carrying or SYGZ per se.

But the way the laws written in FL, a guy with a gun gets to kick your ass. If you successfully defend yourself, he gets to shoot you and say he was scared.

SYG law should bias towards the unarmed and against aggressors.

So we don't have **** like this.

And that's just not right.
 

soot

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Don't have a problem with carrying or SYGZ per se.

But the way the laws written in FL, a guy with a gun gets to kick your ass. If you successfully defend yourself, he gets to shoot you and say he was scared.

SYG law should bias towards the unarmed and against aggressors.

So we don't have **** like this.

And that's just not right.
QFMFT!

Awesome post.
 

Excon

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Don't have a problem with carrying or SYGZ per se.

But the way the laws written in FL, a guy with a gun gets to kick your ass. If you successfully defend yourself, he gets to shoot you and say he was scared.

SYG law should bias towards the unarmed and against aggressors.

So we don't have **** like this.

And that's just not right.
What a ridiculous post.
It doesn't say that at all.
 

What if...?

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What a ridiculous post.
It doesn't say that at all.
It absolutely does.

You can jump on me six times and I let you up, it all good, if you jump on me again and I don't let you up you get to shoot me.

If you shoot an unarmed person and there's no one around to see a positive defense should kick in


Not, "well, we don't have any evidence to counter your claim. Oh well" doesn't cut it.

I am NOT saying this happened in the instant case.

But you can just shoot somebody, whack your head, smack their hands on the ground a couple times and claim self defense and if a cursory examination doesn't produce evidence to the contrary, you walk.

I guess that FL self defense, not syg, but it still gives an aggressor with a gun a significant legal advantage against his unarmed aggressee.
 

Excon

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It absolutely does.
No it does not.


You can jump on me six times and I let you up, it all good, if you jump on me again and I don't let you up you get to shoot me.
More absurdity. You keep forgetting what the law states about a reasonable belief of great bodily harm and or imminent death. It is not present in your absurd claims.

Each and every time you make this absurd claim it is like you keep forgetting that the evidence would have to comport and the rest of the law.


If you shoot an unarmed person and there's no one around to see a positive defense should kick in

Not, "well, we don't have any evidence to counter your claim. Oh well" doesn't cut it.
No it shouldn't. Especially if the evidence doesn't support it.



But you can just shoot somebody, whack your head, smack their hands on the ground a couple times and claim self defense and if a cursory examination doesn't produce evidence to the contrary, you walk.
:doh
That is not what the law allows.

And self inflicted injuries, tent to look like self inflicted injuries.



I guess that FL self defense, not syg, but it still gives an aggressor with a gun a significant legal advantage against his unarmed aggressee.
No it doesn't.
The law is about the person who is at the moment being the actual unlawful aggressor.
It has been reviewed and found to be just fine.
 

Fenton

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Don't have a problem with carrying or SYGZ per se.



But the way the laws written in FL, a guy with a gun gets to kick your ass. If you successfully defend yourself, he gets to shoot you and say he was scared.

SYG law should bias towards the unarmed and against aggressors.

So we don't have **** like this.

And that's just not right.
Your'e being dishonest with that post .

A guy with a gun was getting his ass kicked, he was overpowered and without the gun there was no stopping Martin from turning the ass kicking into a homicide.

We have the same thing in Texas. Go join a Karate School if you want to fight.

If you think your'e entitled to be the arbiter of life and death because your'e stronger and faster, in a society that allows Conceal carry, youv'e got another thing coming.
 

What if...?

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Your'e being dishonest with that post .

A guy with a gun was getting his ass kicked, he was overpowered and without the gun there was no stopping Martin from turning the ass kicking into a homicide.

We have the same thing in Texas. Go join a Karate School if you want to fight.

If you think your'e entitled to be the arbiter of life and death because your'e stronger and faster, in a society that allows Conceal carry, youv'e got another thing coming.
You're operating under the assumption that Z is being truthful and that M attacked him for no reason.

If you follow me in a car and on foot and when challenged IMMEDIATELY go for your pockets I get to repond with non lethal violence. I don't have to SEE a weapon. I don't have to wait to be stabbed.

If you GO for your gun, I get to beat you to death if you fail to convince me you are withdrawing in good faith.

What YOU thought you were doing doesn't mitigate what a reasonable person might conclude you were doing. Self defense is based on an individuals fear in the moment.
 

JC Callender

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If a clean cut black man shot and killed a young white suspicious looking kid after calling 911 I would probably assume the black man was in the right. I would probably assume he was protecting his community.
 
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Yes, we would. The real issue here is SYG law. Racism and race baiting are just side attractions for those not interested in the SYG implications. IF Z is convicted, I expect the case to be used to indict SYG law (at least, specific protocols therein). As SYG laws sweep across the country and become commonplace, the opposition will take the fight to the courtrooms and attempt to bring down the laws by chipping away at provisions provided within the laws.
well if stand your ground is able to be used to start a fight and shoot the person you attacked the law is flawed.

Stand your ground is not a licence to kill.
 
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