It's Time for Libertarians to Be Serious

[TNAR]

TNAR has been arguing Libertarian's must be essentially, pacifists. For example, he asserted a new fundamental Libertarian principle. But, is it a principle, at all?

If you're going to quote me, at least have the decency to do so accurately. I feel like a broken record continually bringing up the fact that non-intervention is NOT equal to pacifism!

I'm pointing out that Libertarian's are not pacifists and have a right to enforce the free-trade principles they hold so dear.

You can't see the forest for the trees, so let's take it down a notch.

Let's say you have chickens and your neighbor has a cow. The two of you have entered into an agreement where you trade eggs for milk. Most people would suggest that you have every right to do so because it is a voluntary transaction.

Now let us assume a ruffian moves into the neighborhood and demands a couple of eggs and a portion of the milk every time you conduct a trade. We already established that the two of you have the right to trade, but does the ruffian have a right to demand a portion of the goods? Again, most people would say that he clearly has no right.

Therefore, the two engaged in peaceful trade have the right to remove the ruffian from the transaction. Perhaps they do the deed themselves; perhaps they hire a third-party. Either way, they conduct violence against the ruffian because of the threat of violence he first committed (he threatened with force or else the two would not agree to the confiscation).

This logic applies in all situations without regard to the entity in question. Please, for the sake of conversation, make note that pacifism is not at play.

The corollary to this argument is non-intervention. Non-intervention says that two people (or other entities) do not have the right to initiate force against another entity simply because they might cause harm in the future (or they have differing practices and/or beliefs).

 

[MarineTpartier]

And fighting a faceless enemy is going to be a better strategy?

ISIS is not faceless. These guys aren't the standard terrorists we've seen. They have 52 155mm artillery pieces that are comparable to what we have. I'm all for seeking a peaceful solution to anything, trust me on that. I'm one of the guys who has to go when the bell sounds. However, for the first time since we invaded Afghanistan in 2001 with a few Special Forces and CIA guys, I believe we need to go. And I think we need to go in hard and heavy, 2003 Iraq invasion style. I was there for that as well. The world seems to forget how devastating we can be if we fight unfettered. Unfortunately, under our current POTUS, unfettered won't be the name of the game. That's a different thread though.

 

[TeleKat]

Even Rand Paul says, No

Even Rand Paul? Even Rand Paul? Using "even" in the context you're using presupposes that Rand Paul is libertarian in some remote way. Which he isn't. He's just another GOP shill. Rand Paul constantly finds himself in favor of foreign intervention. Iran, Russia, Israel, ISIS...

 

[Respecthelect]

ISIS

Look at the actions, not the words. Obama created ISIS. He created on purpose. Obama released the leader and staffed ISIS. Obama funded ISIS with money he left in banks for ISIS to "find." Obama armed ISIS with our weapons. And Obama's training ISIS to battle-hardened toughness by doing the opposite of what you recommend, he's slowly ramping-up hostilities.

By every action and deed, ISIS is Obama's army. And Obama will never, ever willingly destroy ISIS.

 

[TeleKat]

Obama created ISIS. He created on purpose.
By every action and deed, ISIS is Obama's army. And Obama will never, ever willingly destroy ISIS.

I don't suppose that, since you went through all the trouble of making such a claim, you actually have some kind of way to back it up do you?

 

[Respecthelect]

I don't suppose that, since you went through all the trouble of making such a claim, you actually have some kind of way to back it up do you?

OK, the facts are widely known in the news, but if you insist:

1) Staffing ISIS: Baghdadi, a Muslim cleric with a PhD, was released from U.S. custody, by order of president Obama. Baghdadi famously told U.S. Army Colonel Kenneth King, "I’ll see you guys in New York." On 29 June 2014, Baghdadi declared himself Caliph of all two-billion Muslim's.

Obama released Baghdadi and Baghdadi is the leader of ISIS. Who else can claim responsibility for installing the ISIS commander, if not Obama?

2) Obama Armed ISIS: This is also widely known and is plain for all to see ISIS driving U.S. vehicles and weapons. And not just weapons from Iraq. U.S. General McInerney acknowledged that the United States “helped build ISIS.” McInerney describes ISIS weapons shipped all the way from Libya and there never was an explanation of what Ambassador Stevens was doing in Benghazi Libya, but it's long been rumored Stevens was brokering arms for Obama. The very same weapons that ended up starting Baghdadi's ISIS army.

U.S. officials met with ISIS leader Baghdadi in 2013 and here are photos to prove it. That ISIS raided the unguarded U.S. weapons stores in Iraq is also widely known.

3) Funding: That ISIL stole money from unguarded banks is widely known. Who left the banks unguarded? Obama. Obama is the one who ordered the troops out of Iraq, not bothering to guard banks or weapons.

4) Training: There are plenty of rumors that Baghdadi himself was trained by the West, but that's not my claim here. If one intends to win a war, they apply a burst of ferocity, not steadily "increasing pressure." Obama has no intention of winning against his ISIS army. Obama is slowly ramping up attacks to give his army time to adapt and because public opinion demands it. Thus, Obama is training his ISIS army how to fight.
____

That Obama created ISIS is indisputable. What Obama intends to do with his ISIS army, is the only remaining question. Does Obama intend ISIS to attack Iran? Great, let's get on with it. Or does Obama intend ISIS to be his personal army once he leaves office? This is the worry of a growing number within the U.S. government and on both sides of the aisle. That Obama created ISIS for his later personal use.

 

[LagerHead]

ISIS is not faceless. These guys aren't the standard terrorists we've seen. They have 52 155mm artillery pieces that are comparable to what we have. I'm all for seeking a peaceful solution to anything, trust me on that. I'm one of the guys who has to go when the bell sounds. However, for the first time since we invaded Afghanistan in 2001 with a few Special Forces and CIA guys, I believe we need to go. And I think we need to go in hard and heavy, 2003 Iraq invasion style. I was there for that as well. The world seems to forget how devastating we can be if we fight unfettered. Unfortunately, under our current POTUS, unfettered won't be the name of the game. That's a different thread though.

ISIS wasn't really the enemy to whom I was referring. I had more of the Taliban in mind when I said, "faceless." Regardless, I'm tired of being the world's police force. It's time for the rest of the world to solve a few of their own damn problems.

 

[MarineTpartier]

Look at the actions, not the words. Obama created ISIS. He created on purpose. Obama released the leader and staffed ISIS. Obama funded ISIS with money he left in banks for ISIS to "find." Obama armed ISIS with our weapons. And Obama's training ISIS to battle-hardened toughness by doing the opposite of what you recommend, he's slowly ramping-up hostilities.

By every action and deed, ISIS is Obama's army. And Obama will never, ever willingly destroy ISIS.

I'm typing this with one foot in the pool of realization that you are insane and the other in the pool of this is a debate website and I'll treat everyone's argument with some sort of respect, so here it goes.....
I do agree that we unknowingly funded this group. These are the same guys that were fighting Assad in Syria that we gave money, weapons, etc to. However, I don't believe for a second that Pres Obama did that with the intention of funding a full scale Islamic revolution in the ME. That's ridiculous. Someone would have to show me, PERSONALLY, correspondence between Pres Obama himself and the leaders of ISIS before I believe that. Pres Obama may be a lot of things bad, but the dude isn't a friggin traitor. Get a grip bro.

 

[MarineTpartier]

ISIS wasn't really the enemy to whom I was referring. I had more of the Taliban in mind when I said, "faceless." Regardless, I'm tired of being the world's police force. It's time for the rest of the world to solve a few of their own damn problems.

You're tired of it? lol. I'M TIRED OF IT. I have to go do it. However, this is a legit threat man. It really is. The Taliban really don't care about us. I honestly believe that. They simply fight for their homeland and leave people alone when they leave them alone. Look at Russia. They smoked them in the 80's but you didn't really see that follow Russia home. However, ISIS is a whole other ball game. They aren't satisfied with their homeland. In their opinion, the entire ME is their homeland and they want every square mile of it. The bad part is, ISIS appeals to youth as youth tend to be ideological. I can remember going on many a patrol in Iraq and Afghanistan and seeing middle aged men working, women working, kids playing, and almost every male age 20-35 doing NOTHING on the street corner. Those are the guys ISIS targets. The guys with no job, no prospects, but the desire to leave home and make it on their own. Islam is such a huge part of almost every ME country's daily lives (prayer over loud speakers, prominent figures painted on every wall, etc) that a group such as ISIS doesn't really have to sell what they believe in to a young man. All they have to do is simply tighten the screws on what the guy already believes anyway. Next thing you know, those guys on the street corner are marching through the streets in black and wildly firing an AK over a wall. Sure, that doesn't hurt us here. But what about when they are tired of fighting each other. Eventually they will turn their sites to the evil white devil in the west. The bad part is, we already brought that on ourselves by bombing them. That was the biggest mistake in this whole deal. Iraq should have learned to defend themselves and open dialogue with other ME countries, not us. Instead, we intervened and now good men are getting their heads sawed off in what is the beginning of a new terror campaign against the US.

 

[Respecthelect]

correspondence between Pres Obama himself and the leaders of ISIS before I believe that. Pres Obama may be a lot of things bad, but the dude isn't a friggin traitor. Get a grip bro.

I look at the facts as they play-out, relying less on what politicians say. If Obama refuses to incite ISIS to attack Iran and he refuses to destroy ISIS, the only alternative explanation is that Obama is protecting ISIS.

Yesterday, Obama finally and reluctantly agreed to destroy ISIS. If he follows-through and actually destroys ISIS and stops protecting them, then maybe we can agree Obama didn't arm, train and fund ISIS. We're a long way from that point, though.

It would also be far preferable to sic ISIS against Iran, than to engage them ourselves. Obama claims to not want boots on the ground and to not want Muslim's resenting American steel raining from the sky, so why not let ISIS duke it out with one of our many enemies over there?

 

[PoS]

I look at the facts as they play-out, relying less on what politicians say. If Obama refuses to incite ISIS to attack Iran and he refuses to destroy ISIS, the only alternative explanation is that Obama is protecting ISIS.

:lamo

It would also be far preferable to sic ISIS against Iran, than to engage them ourselves.

lolwhut? So now you want to support ISIS? :lol:

You know, the world isnt just black and white, its not all yes or no. The world's problems actually has multiple choice answers too, have you ever thought of that?

The safest way for America is to disentangle itself from the whole mess in the middle east because ISIS will be fighting dictators like Assad and Iran for a long, long time so all we have to do is to keep out of it and let them fight it out- see, there is a better alternative than your constant demand that we meddle in this and sacrifice more of our soldiers and civilians in a conflict that we dont have a stake in.

Isnt that a better idea?

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

You claim to be a Libertarian, don't you reserve the right to trade with others? Is that right limited by our borders, or does it extend to all like-minded men interested in trading? Is it only American's that are free to trade or is it a natural right? If pirates block access to your trading partner, are you precluded from trading? Must you bow to every thug's threat? Or do you have a right to enforce free trade-routes?

First, you need give an example of one of these pirates.

 

[Respecthelect]

First, you need give an example of one of these pirates.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Interesting, because I thought you were using the term as a metaphor since far greater things are blocking free trade.

 

[Respecthelect]

The safest way for America is to disentangle itself from the whole mess in the middle east because ISIS will be fighting dictators like Assad and Iran for a long, long time so all we have to do is to keep out of it and let them fight it out- see, there is a better alternative than your constant demand that we meddle in this and sacrifice more of our soldiers and civilians in a conflict that we dont have a stake in.

Isnt that a better idea?

I've advocated Obama take the army he staffed, funded, armed and trained and sic it against Iran. Whether that's done through chain-of-command (direct orders from Obama) or by instigating and inciting conflict between ISIS and Iran, makes no difference to me. It is critical to stop Iranian nuclear development, which is a much higher priority than ISIS.

Since it's clear Iran won't be stopped by any other means, maybe Iranian de-nuclearization can occur through ISIS-Iran conflict.

If that optimal solution (zero American wars) can't be arranged, then we'll be forced to fight two wars. One against ISIS now and one against Iran soon.

 

[LagerHead]

You're tired of it? lol. I'M TIRED OF IT. I have to go do it. However, this is a legit threat man. It really is. The Taliban really don't care about us. I honestly believe that. They simply fight for their homeland and leave people alone when they leave them alone. Look at Russia. They smoked them in the 80's but you didn't really see that follow Russia home. However, ISIS is a whole other ball game. They aren't satisfied with their homeland. In their opinion, the entire ME is their homeland and they want every square mile of it. The bad part is, ISIS appeals to youth as youth tend to be ideological. I can remember going on many a patrol in Iraq and Afghanistan and seeing middle aged men working, women working, kids playing, and almost every male age 20-35 doing NOTHING on the street corner. Those are the guys ISIS targets. The guys with no job, no prospects, but the desire to leave home and make it on their own. Islam is such a huge part of almost every ME country's daily lives (prayer over loud speakers, prominent figures painted on every wall, etc) that a group such as ISIS doesn't really have to sell what they believe in to a young man. All they have to do is simply tighten the screws on what the guy already believes anyway. Next thing you know, those guys on the street corner are marching through the streets in black and wildly firing an AK over a wall. Sure, that doesn't hurt us here. But what about when they are tired of fighting each other. Eventually they will turn their sites to the evil white devil in the west. The bad part is, we already brought that on ourselves by bombing them. That was the biggest mistake in this whole deal. Iraq should have learned to defend themselves and open dialogue with other ME countries, not us. Instead, we intervened and now good men are getting their heads sawed off in what is the beginning of a new terror campaign against the US.

If we'd stayed the hell out of the Middle East, they wouldn't have the beef with us that they do.

 

[Cryptic]

You're tired of it? lol. I'M TIRED OF IT. I have to go do it. However, this is a legit threat man. It really is. The Taliban really don't care about us. I honestly believe that. They simply fight for their homeland and leave people alone when they leave them alone. Look at Russia. They smoked them in the 80's but you didn't really see that follow Russia home.

I think you are very correct in saying the Taliban did not personally follow anybody home. That aside, the Taliban was very willing to give shelter and assistance to thousands of Jihaders who were very willing to follow other people home.

Not only were the Al Queda hijackers directly sheltered by the Taliban, but many of the foreign fighters in the Russo-Chechen wars were also part of the global jihader network that the Taliban was allowing to openly operate from Afghanistan.

If we'd stayed the hell out of the Middle East, they wouldn't have the beef with us that they do.

That depends on the group. Ben Ladin declared total jihad against the US- not just for invovlement in the Middle East, but because he had issues with western civilization in and of itself.

 

[Respecthelect]

That depends on the group. Ben Ladin declared total jihad against the US- not just for invovlement in the Middle East, but because he had issues with western civilization in and of itself.

It's Western culture radical Muslim's object to. The invasion they are primarily concerned with is Gays, Hollywood and porn. We can hide within our borders all we want, it will only embolden them to attack. Because we can't stop the internet and we can't block the gay agenda heading their way. Therefore, we are hard-pressed to stop the nukes headed our way.

 

[Brn2bfree]

It's Time for Libertarians to Be Serious
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't believe in 'Libertarians'. You are either liberal or conservative..
The person who says they are in the middle of the road are merely liberals who are embarrassed to be called a liberal.
.
If you call yourself a 'libertarian' and think you should be serious.. then think about being a conservative.

 

[MarineTpartier]

If we'd stayed the hell out of the Middle East, they wouldn't have the beef with us that they do.

If you knew anything about me you would know I agree with you