It's official, all jobs to be open to women

[Oozlefinch]

Well, apparently the SecDef has made it official:

All combat jobs, including infantry units, will be open to women beginning next year, Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced Thursday.

Carter said the decision was part of his commitment to build a force of the future.

Military will open all combat jobs to women, Defense secretary announces

Wow, I hope they are prepared to dump several billion dollars into making the mandatory changes in the schools and units.

Myself, I doubt this will last more then 14 months. This is not a law, this is a policy. And I doubt that the next President or SecDef will let this remain more then a few days after they take office.

 

[cpwill]

Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

The Associated Press has learned that Defense Secretary Ash Carter will order the military to open all combat jobs to women, and is giving the armed services until Jan. 1 to submit plans to make the historic change.
Carter’s announcement is expected later Thursday.

It rebuffs arguments from the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman that the Marine Corps should be allowed to exclude women from certain front-line combat jobs, citing studies showing that mixed-gender units aren’t as capable as all-male units.

People are going to die because of Secretary Carter's decision. But hey, we value our soldiers and Marines less than we value PC, so.....


and this argument:

"In the 21st Century, that requires drawing strength from the broadest pool" possible, he said.

We can't succeed to defend the nation by eliminating half of the U.S. population from combat roles, Carter said.

Is ****ing stupid. We aren't exactly short on males for the infantry - in fact, we've had to get rid of a lot of qualified males over the past few years due to force drawdowns. Meaning that either Carter is an idiot who isn't aware of that, or is a liar.

 

[Gathomas88]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

Meaning that either Carter is an idiot who isn't aware of that, or is a liar.

Most likely both. :roll:

 

[ocean515]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

People are going to die because of Secretary Carter's decision. But hey, we value our soldiers and Marines less than we value PC, so.....

In a world of increasing tension and risk, the actions of the Obama Administration should be frightening to all. Even more frightening is the prospect that the mystifying yet expected agenda of the Obama Administration will be continued by the Democratic Party front runner should her run for office be successful.

The World is experiencing the effects of the vacuum of leadership Obama has created, and millions are suffering it's consequence.

 

[cpwill]

Well, apparently the SecDef has made it official:

Military will open all combat jobs to women, Defense secretary announces

Wow, I hope they are prepared to dump several billion dollars into making the mandatory changes in the schools and units.

Myself, I doubt this will last more then 14 months. This is not a law, this is a policy. And I doubt that the next President or SecDef will let this remain more then a few days after they take office.

Sorry, I put in another thread on this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/milit...litary-make-itself-less-combat-effective.html

Hard to switch back once you've switched over, though. What do you do with the 03 Females you already have?

 

[clownboy]

Already a thread on this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/milit...litary-make-itself-less-combat-effective.html

Hard to switch back once you've switched over, though. What do you do with the 03 Females you already have?

Grandmother them in? :mrgreen:

 

[OrphanSlug]

This might not end all that well...

 

[Oozlefinch]

Already a thread on this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/milit...litary-make-itself-less-combat-effective.html

Hard to switch back once you've switched over, though. What do you do with the 03 Females you already have?

Actually, I created this one 2 minutes before you created yours. :mrgreen:

And no, that is not really needed. I doubt you will have more then a handfull at most before this policy is thrown out. And there are still lots of jobs that require 03's that are not FMF units.

To be honest, I doubt that more then a handfull will be qualified before this is thrown out. As usual for such feel good policies, this has not been thought out at all.

For example, how many MOS schools for combat arms are configured to handle females? I know for a fact that SOI (Marine Infantry School) is not configured to handle female trainees at all. So they are going to have to spend a big chunk of money before they can even take female Marines, in configuring for them seperate quarters since there is no way they are sharing the open squad bays and showers with the male Marines.

And when I was at the Marine Security Forces school, it was the same way. All training facilities and barracks were for males only, absolutely no provisions for females at all.

There is going to be a requirement for a huge amount of money to be spent before this can really be implemented. Every school will more then likely need new barracks built, since there are no provisions in the buildings now for handling females. And it is going to be the same thing in the units themselves. No barracks or facilities configured for handling females, so they are going to need a hell of a lot of money fast in order to comply with this 1 year mandate they have been given.

 

[David_N]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

People are going to die because of Secretary Carter's decision. But hey, we value our soldiers and Marines less than we value PC, so.....


and this argument:



Is ****ing stupid. We aren't exactly short on males for the infantry - in fact, we've had to get rid of a lot of qualified males over the past few years due to force drawdowns. Meaning that either Carter is an idiot who isn't aware of that, or is a liar.

Are you really outraged that women will be able to have combat roles? :lol:

 

[cpwill]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

Are you really outraged that women will be able to have combat roles?

I am upset that our SecDef chose to value political correctness over the lives of the people he is supposed to be leading. I am additionally irritated about the fact that he lacked the stones to state his reasons, and so made up some that are factual BS.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

Are you really outraged that women will be able to have combat roles? :lol:

Women have had combat roles for decades. So that makes no sense.

 

[cpwill]

Actually, I created this one 2 minutes before you created yours. :mrgreen:

And no, that is not really needed. I doubt you will have more then a handfull at most before this policy is thrown out. And there are still lots of jobs that require 03's that are not FMF units.

To be honest, I doubt that more then a handfull will be qualified before this is thrown out. As usual for such feel good policies, this has not been thought out at all.

For example, how many MOS schools for combat arms are configured to handle females? I know for a fact that SOI (Marine Infantry School) is not configured to handle female trainees at all.

SOI has already had multiple female graduates, and they have put women into IOC (though none have passed).

Marine Corps weighs lower standards for women after none pass Infantry Officer Course - Washington Times

So.... they are already "set up" for it.

And it is going to be the same thing in the units themselves. No barracks or facilities configured for handling females, so they are going to need a hell of a lot of money fast in order to comply with this 1 year mandate they have been given.

We already have mixed-gender barracks in the Marine Corps. So...

 

[David_N]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

Women have had combat roles for decades. So that makes no sense.

I meant to say more combat jobs.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

Ridiculous. I'm so sick of the retarded equality movement. Mixed units have been proven to be the worst units and yet the government is still going forward with this crap. Science? Studies? Research? Data? **** all of that stuff! We want equality now!

 

[gdgyva]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

Are you really outraged that women will be able to have combat roles? :lol:

as one who was in the military, and in a semi combat area (beirut)

i dont believe women belong in some of the combat roles

maybe that makes me a sexist...probably it does, but i dunno

i have two daughters, and four nieces.....

and the thought of them in a situation like that makes me very uneasy

physically, mentally could they handle it? i dunno....probably

do i want our daughters, wives, and sisters becoming "brutal" which is what combat requires....absolutely not

if we NEEDED them because of numbers that would be another thing

but we dont have that need....this is another in a long line of PC crap

 

[Henrin]

SOI has already had multiple female graduates, and they have put women into IOC (though none have passed).

Marine Corps weighs lower standards for women after none pass Infantry Officer Course - Washington Times

So.... they are already "set up" for it.

It's not as if the military doesn't already have a long history of lowering standards for women. I do however love how they refuse to admit that is what they have done even if all the evidence supports they have done it many times.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

Are you really outraged that women will be able to have combat roles? :lol:

Why should they be allowed? They have literally proven themselves to be bad for units already and we are expanding their access? ummm...what? There is also no need at all for a change in policy as there is already more than enough recruits.

 

[Oozlefinch]

SOI has already had multiple female graduates, and they have put women into IOC (though none have passed).

Marine Corps weighs lower standards for women after none pass Infantry Officer Course - Washington Times

So.... they are already "set up" for it.

We already have mixed-gender barracks in the Marine Corps. So...

It is one thing to run a couple of female students through a course, it is quite different to expect it to handle 20-40% females on a regular basis.

We ran a few females through the Security Forces school when I was there. Instead of being put in the Squad Bays like the rest of the students, they were put in 2 man rooms originally intended for Sergeants and above.

And yes, I am well aware of the "mixed gender barracks". But far to many of them in Infantryland are not configured that way. When I was deployed as an 0311, it was always open squad bays, assigned by platoon. Typical building was 1 building per company, common head in the middle. Absolutely no privacy, absolutely no consideration for configuring it to handle both men and women.

Heck, more often then not our work buildings did not even have a female head! In thinking back to the different buildings I worked in when I was a grunt, I realize now how heads for males and females was almost never seen. The supply building as well as the Battalion HQ for 2/2 did not have a female head. Neither did the armory or the motor pool (but the Commo shed did, repurposed early 1980's building).

 

[Henrin]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

I am upset that our SecDef chose to value political correctness over the lives of the people he is supposed to be leading. I am additionally irritated about the fact that he lacked the stones to state his reasons, and so made up some that are factual BS.

He is only doing it for the upcoming election, so he can't very well give his real reasons.

 

[Paleocon]

Well, apparently the SecDef has made it official:



Military will open all combat jobs to women, Defense secretary announces

Wow, I hope they are prepared to dump several billion dollars into making the mandatory changes in the schools and units.

Myself, I doubt this will last more then 14 months. This is not a law, this is a policy. And I doubt that the next President or SecDef will let this remain more then a few days after they take office.

This is a sad day for America. It is a stain upon our honor that we allow women to fight for us.

 

[cpwill]

It is one thing to run a couple of female students through a course, it is quite different to expect it to handle 20-40% females on a regular basis.

I don't think they're anticipating anything like 20-40% volunteering for the infantry. The point is just that they already have the infrastructure to handle putting females through the courses in something like the numbers that they expect to get them. Remember also that SOI is co-located with MCT, which is and has always been co-ed.

WAnd yes, I am well aware of the "mixed gender barracks". But far to many of them in Infantryland are not configured that way. When I was deployed as an 0311, it was always open squad bays, assigned by platoon.

:shrug: deployed, absolutely, it's common berthing. Here in the states, no so much. When the FETs came out, we had to figure out special housing and bathing for them on the spot. That's an added burden and problem for commanders down range, but not here in CONUS.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

He is only doing it for the upcoming election, so he can't very well give his real reasons.

You think Carter wants to be SecDef in a Clinton administration?

 

[Henrin]

Re: Secrtary of Defense Carter Orders Military to Make Itself Less Combat Effective

You think Carter wants to be SecDef in a Clinton administration?

I think he is doing for not only himself, but the democratic party and Obama.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I don't think they're anticipating anything like 20-40% volunteering for the infantry. The point is just that they already have the infrastructure to handle putting females through the courses in something like the numbers that they expect to get them. Remember also that SOI is co-located with MCT, which is and has always been co-ed.

Pendleton is all male at SOI. So that means that any females will have to go through Camp Johnson. Where once again, all facilities at SOI are for males only for 03 training. And it is going to be the same for every other course, like STINGER school at Fort Bliss.

And why should they be volunteers? If they are going to open it up, then it should not be for volunteers only, it should be 100% open to all or completely seperate.

That means that just like every guy that joins with an "Open Contract", they can be shoved into Infantry, or Artillery, or Tanks. Just like the guys are.

This needs to be either 100% inclusive or 100% exclusive. No middle ground. Of course, you should know how I actually stand on this issue. Once we can make a test platoon that is 50% female, and they can pass a MCCRES, then I will start to consider it. Until then, no way.

:shrug: deployed, absolutely, it's common berthing. Here in the states, no so much. When the FETs came out, we had to figure out special housing and bathing for them on the spot. That's an added burden and problem for commanders down range, but not here in CONUS.

Not just deployed. I know that at several of the field sites I trained at in Pendleton and Lejeune there was a single head for a company to use. And being on a 2 week field exercise with all guys, it was not a problem to wander 50 yards away and dig a cathole. Your buddy digs his 10 yards away, so what? We were all guys, no big deal. I have seen in my last unit if a female needs to do the same, she had to take at least 1 or 2 other females along, to stand off a ways and warn males to move off and not come into the area.

 

[cpwill]

Pendleton is all male at SOI. So that means that any females will have to go through Camp Johnson. Where once again, all facilities at SOI are for males only for 03 training. And it is going to be the same for every other course, like STINGER school at Fort Bliss.

:shrug: then they'll shove the females through Geiger like they already do. Infrastructure expansion requirements: minimal at most.

And why should they be volunteers? If they are going to open it up, then it should not be for volunteers only, it should be 100% open to all or completely seperate.

Pretty much all current infantry dudes are volunteers. Open-Contract dudes typically get assigned to Supply and Admin.

This needs to be either 100% inclusive or 100% exclusive. No middle ground. Of course, you should know how I actually stand on this issue. Once we can make a test platoon that is 50% female, and they can pass a MCCRES, then I will start to consider it. Until then, no way.

:shrug: we're past that point now, thanks to the Rainbow Unicorn Presidency.

Not just deployed. I know that at several of the field sites I trained at in Pendleton and Lejeune there was a single head for a company to use.

Jealous. Lejeune we were mostly just in the woods. There were port-a-potties at the ranges that we often lived on.

Oh. At AP Hill there was some squadbays. We weren't in them except for the first two and last two days, but I can see where they would have to find somewhere to stash them then. Probably have a "Female squadbay" for all the females in the battalion.

And being on a 2 week field exercise with all guys, it was not a problem to wander 50 yards away and dig a cathole. Your buddy digs his 10 yards away, so what? We were all guys, no big deal. I have seen in my last unit if a female needs to do the same, she had to take at least 1 or 2 other females along, to stand off a ways and warn males to move off and not come into the area.

yup. You just gotta walk further into the woods.