1) there is no "choice" to leave. A failure to implant, miscarrage, etc, is part of the biological process and doesn't occure on some conscious level
2) If the options are continue with current circumstances, or die, then that is clearly forced dependency
because such is what defines it as forced dependency ...
we are not talking about a transfusion, we are talking about an act taken with the intent of removing the fetus from it's dependent relationship with the mother and forcing it into circumstances where it will die. Here, you are carrying out specific acts that will lead to a termination of it's interests. Clearly this is different than the refusal to donate some bodily material, where there is a refusal to act
and monkey and cats are both small furry animals. But you would still be equivocating if you ignored the fundamental difference between the two, and only focused on those similarities
It IS a child - will be - whatever . . . it IS important that you make the decision so you can provide the proper CARE . . . if you are unable to follow through and ensure adequate support of said child DURING pregnancy, IMMEDIATELY AFTER pregnancy or FAR INTO THE FUTURE then MAKE THE CHOICE not to HAVE A CHILD YOU'LL ABANDON AND NEGLECT SOMEHOW.
Your argument, etc - is so far off track from the REAL issue it's rather disturbing . . . you don't get the concerns and problems at all.
I'm wondering what your authority is for making such assertions? Are you simply using right to mean current legal right? Because your strident tone would suggest something different.No person in the US has the right to use the inside of your body against your consciously expressed will. No one has a right to extend his/her natural life by appropriating any part or aspect of the internal body of someone else, not even a child has the right to demand that of a legal parent,
The problem is that I did not say pro-choicers currently look bad, in the way I said the rhetoric of the likes of the radical pro-choicers here would be a great PR boon to the pro-life side. I simply noted that rhetoric in this thread and said it would be helpful to the pro-life side. I didn't say it was the general pro-choice rhetoric, as it isn't; indeed, it would make little sense for me to say I wish it was more widespread if it was already widespread.
So then a kick to the tummy by daddy who don't want it is no big thing, and should be viewed as just simple assault on the Domina?
Would have to be, otherwise......
If the zef was harmed, it would probably be assault causing bodily harm here.
What body?
You really don't know????
The biological process of which you speak is blind material force. The mental process of which I speak is reasoned mental force. We each choose mentally which of these levels of reality we are going to support as the most important.
When you valorize the biological above the mental force of the woman, you reduce her to mindless material force.
When I valorize her conscious choice as more important, I valorize reasoned mental force.
I do not even grasp what you are talking about on "fundamental differences." If a woman does not want to be pregnant, but is, that is a state of rape.
All she meant was that the recognition by the Supreme Court that a woman had a right to choose not to continue a pregnancy, which is not a stand she disagreed with, was something that happened so suddenly in such full form that legislators and the people who voted for them felt as though they had been bypassed.
In the 1992 Planned Parenthood decision, the three controlling Justices accepted as constitutional several restrictions on access to abortion
that could not have survived strict adherence to Roe.8 5 While those Justices did not closely consider the plight of women without means to overcome the restrictions, they added an important strand to the Court's
opinions on abortion-they acknowledged the intimate connection between a woman's "ability to control [her] reproductive lilfe]" and her
"ability... to participate equally in the economic and social life of the
Nation."'86 The idea of the woman in control of her destiny and her
place in society87 was less prominent in the Roe decision itself, which
coupled with the rights of the pregnant woman the free exercise of her
physician's medical judgment.
She was talking about the popular response and how it could have been kept at a less extreme level if there had been gradual reform and a Supreme Court decision giving us the same interpretation after such reform. That is not saying the decision was wrong.
And we can cut our nails. We do not have to let them keep growing just because it is a natural process.what does that have to do with you trying to attribute reason to a purely natural process like nails growing?...
And we can cut our nails. We do not have to let them keep growing just because it is a natural process.
I'm wondering what your authority is for making such assertions? Are you simply using right to mean current legal right? Because your strident tone would suggest something different.
what does that have to do with you trying to attribute reason to a purely natural process like nails growing?
1) this discussion is happening in the context of "how granting rights to the fetus impacts the abortion debate. So I am lost on how I could be endorsing a view when I am simply pointing out the implications of something.
2) I fail to see how pointing out that a natural biological process isn't dependent on the choice from one of the components of that process (the embryo/egg) amounts to reducing a woman to "mindless material force".
Uhh, you were discussing the "choice" of the embryo to implant or not ...
1) How is being pregnant like rape? That makes absolutely no sense
2) the fundamental difference is what I just pointed out: sex cells and the embryo are not classified as parasites. Because they are parts in the process of biological reproduction. Parasites are not. Hence, you are equivocating when you draw such a comparison
I'm not trying to attribute reason to a natural process - I'm saying that, because so many natural processes are so detrimental to persons, there is not a single reason to valorize them in general and persons should feel free to control them for the sake of persons, who are capable of reason.
If an embryo is not capable of making a choice and never has been, for me, that is tantamount to saying it has no personhood, because it is characteristic of all persons that they either are capable of mental choice or have demonstrated that capacity in the past so that we have a reason for hoping they will do so again.
Pregnancy and sexual intercourse are, in themselves, neutral phenomenon, both involving sexual organs. Wanted pregnancy and consensual sexual intercourse are alike in that a person has consented to them, in particular, the woman consents to pregnancy or consensual sexual intercourse.
Unwanted pregnancy and rape are alike in that the woman does not consent to pregnancy or sexual intercourse. That makes perfect sense to me.
Sex cells and the embryo do not have to be classified as parasites to engage in biologically parasitic behavior. I am not equivocating. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "equivocate."
Now that is not what you originally argued at all. First you argued the lack of concent invalidated any right to exist in such a state. I pointed out there was no ability to give consent, and the Embryo is in it's position as part of the natural process of birth. You then shifted this to the zygote "being free to leave the boddy"
Ahh, so we are back to ignoring the entire context of the discussion to make you bizarre arguments less bizarre: Sorry, again, arguing the hypothetical effects of granting the fetus rights is not, in any way, advocating for those rights.
Secondly, we clearly have an expectation that a fetus will one day be capable of mental choice. So according to your argument above, it should be granted such rights. Obviously I disagree with this, but hopefully it will highlight the need to actually think through your arguments, as opposed to just saying what ever comes to your mind
Again, you're trying to attribute rational to a natural biological process
Because you apparently don't understand what equivocation is: Rape is someone forcing you into sexual intercourse. A pregnancy is a natural consequence of the sexual act. You can try to influence the process, but you and no one else actually has control over it
Yes, if you totally ignore that parasites are what engage in parasitic behavior in biology .... So yes, your attempt to confuse terms on very loose similarities is the entire basis behind equivocation
The zygote/blastocyst is free to leave the body, and we know this because many do leave it with the first menstruation after their development.
Either you are capable of mental choice now or you have been capable of it in the past, so that there is existing objective evidence that you may have it again.
The idea that one has to respect the potential for future mental choice on the part of anyone or anything that has never demonstrated it is ridiculous to me.
The issue is not what it may become, but what it now is or what it has been that provides evidence for what it may be.
It is on that basis that I don't even think a zygote even deserves to be considered a future blastocyst, let alone a future born person.
If pregnancy were a natural consequence of the sexual act, every act of heterosexual PIV intercourse would naturally result in pregnancy.
The fact that it does not occur in all cases leads thoughtful people to find out what actually causes pregnancy. Pregnancy is when a blastocyst successfully implants into the bodily tissue of a woman.
But all women's immune systems naturally attempt to reject pregnancy - there is no known case, in fact, of a female mammal whose immune system T-cells and blood complement do not attempt to reject a blastocyst's implantation.
So if I say that a rapist forces a rape victim to have sexual intercourse, I see no reason why I cannot say that a blastocyst forces a woman to be pregnant.
Both use physical force.
Some rapists use chemical force to prevent women from fighting back, and all blastocysts use chemical force to make placentas use chemically force to prevent women's immune systems from fighting back.
It still makes perfect sense to me to compare the two. The only thing that renders the implanting blastocyst innocent is the same only thing that renders the man engaged in PIV sexual intercourse innocent - the woman's consent.
You do not understand that all sorts of scientists have talked about this issue of parasitic behavior by individuals of species that are not considered parasites as a species.
1) you still seem to be trying to apply reason to a biological process
2) If it "leaves" the body it dies. So no, it's not actually "free" to leave
By all objective standards, the reproduction process should produce an entity capable of mental choice ...
Well, we are discussing the hypothetical of what happens if a fetus is granted rights. I'm not sure how many times I have to explain that you, before you stop making accusations and claims about my personal position on the matter. But it would clearly be acceptable to assume a pregnancy will produce an entity capable of free will. And I am unsure how the above undermines your earlier arguments on the subject (you are truly ALL OVER the place here)
that doesn't even make sense
Again, you seem intent on ignoring the context of the discussion so you have something to attack ...
Not really. Saying something is a natural consequence of something isn't saying that something is always the outcome of something, but the obvious outcome of it. And short of taking measures to prevent pregnancy, or some biological failure, heterosexual intercourse will likely lead to pregnancy, and is the biological basis for the sex drive
and what leads to this ....Sex
ok? And my liver attempts to remove alcohol from my system, but the natural consequence of drinking alcohal is still becoming intoxicated ....
Because it makes no sense: a rapist is an outside actor and rape is not a biological process. Pregnancy is a biological process and occurs internally
lol, more completely bizarre equivocations. A biological process is not rape. It's a biological process that has consequences that you just don't like.
There is no conscious effort on the end of the blastocyst and it is not an outside agent. It's biological material, and it function as part of your reproduction system. You might as well make the term "rape" totally meaningless and use it to refer to everything from the common cold to hey fever
Right, and your hair is guilty of growing, that rock is guilty for being in your way, the sky is guilty for raining, your intestins are guilty for making you go to the bathroom, etc
Hopefully no more is needed to highlight how silly this line of reasoning is
Actually you seem to not understand my argument on this point: "parasitic behavior" =/= parasite. Your body, biologically speaking, is a baby making machine. A parasite is a foreign species
I don't know about any other women, but my body has never been a baby-making machine
The only people who have ever believed my body to be a baby-making machine are people who have been obsessed with sexual reproduction and who have stubbornly refused to respect my personhood, which has nothing to do with producing babies.
I have explained to you that it is possible to perceive an embryo/fetus and placenta as engaging in parasitic behaviorand, on that account, to be temporarily a parasite.
Biologically that is exactly what it is, and the entire purpose of your existence: to pump out offspring and continue your genetic line.
as usual, your rather shallow form of thought betrays you: talking about the biological purpose of your body isn't an attempt to sign some "breeder role" to you as an individual. It's pointing out the biological part a female plays in a species. Taking offense to that is t=like taking offense to the fact that I pointed out women have ovaries.
The biological parts that women play in the human species include every single thing they contribute to human culture and science, because the human adaptation is primarily cultural, something that clearly distinguishes us from, say, cockroaches.
Nope, biologically your entire purpose is to pump out babies.
So infertile people have no purpose?
***Biologically***? Yes.
What if they offer their biological material as donation to save or increase the quality of the life of another?
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