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"It's not a choice, it's a child" vs. "It's not a child, it's a choice"



The biological process of which you speak is blind material force. The mental process of which I speak is reasoned mental force. We each choose mentally which of these levels of reality we are going to support as the most important. When you valorize the biological above the mental force of the woman, you reduce her to mindless material force. When I valorize her conscious choice as more important, I valorize reasoned mental force. To each his or her own.

I do not even grasp what you are talking about on "fundamental differences." If a woman does not want to be pregnant, but is, that is a state of rape.
 

Well there Mr. Troll. I didn't take a stand on the topic at all, I'm not sure where the trolling came from. I only took a stand that we should have more condoms and birth control available to more people.

Scientists on the other had have taken the well argued stand that it's not considered a child and has no features of a living being at the stage of abortion. I don't agree with this and even though the scientists have a great argument I don't trust them over my heart, religion and common sense.

As far as your perspective of "If you can't take care of a child don't have one" WE'VE TRIED THAT. It's not working now is it? Accidents happen because of hormones and emotions. Expecting humans to be perfect is nonsense <---the point of the thread.

So troll along please..
 
I'm wondering what your authority is for making such assertions? Are you simply using right to mean current legal right? Because your strident tone would suggest something different.
 


My apologies for misreading your post.
 
So then a kick to the tummy by daddy who don't want it is no big thing, and should be viewed as just simple assault on the Domina?

Would have to be, otherwise......

If the zef was harmed, it would probably be assault causing bodily harm here.
 
You really don't know????


The position which Smoke has given is that whether the death of the unborn was from the choice of having an abortion or someone kicking the mother in the stomach causing the termination of pregnancy that in the later instance the only charge that would be against the attacker is assault.

I'll repeat again, I don't agree with this position I was merely seeking clarification from Smoke whether or not she would be consistant in her view of the unborn.

You said if the zef was harmed than it would be assault with bodily harm. Whose body would be the question I posed.
 
The biological process of which you speak is blind material force. The mental process of which I speak is reasoned mental force. We each choose mentally which of these levels of reality we are going to support as the most important.

what does that have to do with you trying to attribute reason to a purely natural process like nails growing?

When you valorize the biological above the mental force of the woman, you reduce her to mindless material force.

1) this discussion is happening in the context of "how granting rights to the fetus impacts the abortion debate. So I am lost on how I could be endorsing a view when I am simply pointing out the implications of something.

2) I fail to see how pointing out that a natural biological process isn't dependent on the choice from one of the components of that process (the embryo/egg) amounts to reducing a woman to "mindless material force".


When I valorize her conscious choice as more important, I valorize reasoned mental force.

Uhh, you were discussing the "choice" of the embryo to implant or not ...

I do not even grasp what you are talking about on "fundamental differences." If a woman does not want to be pregnant, but is, that is a state of rape.

1) How is being pregnant like rape? That makes absolutely no sense

2) the fundamental difference is what I just pointed out: sex cells and the embryo are not classified as parasites. Because they are parts in the process of biological reproduction. Parasites are not. Hence, you are equivocating when you draw such a comparison
 
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Who said she disagreed with a woman's right to choice? I said she felt basing the argument on privacy was weak legal reasoning in support of that choice, because she argues that the issue of equality carries with it a stronger rational and one that isn't dependent on an outside agent

she writes:

She outlines how it conflicted with the mission of the court, how it was based on weak legal rational, and usurped and hijacked the proper legislative process that was clearly moving towards reform. Not sure what else you can take from it, besides that it was a bad decision.
 
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what does that have to do with you trying to attribute reason to a purely natural process like nails growing?...
And we can cut our nails. We do not have to let them keep growing just because it is a natural process.
 
And we can cut our nails. We do not have to let them keep growing just because it is a natural process.

Again, with the reflective response to the word "natural". Nothing I wrote suggests women shouldn't get abortions because they are a "natural process". In fact, nothing I wrote directly dealt with women being able to get abortions at all. What I was specifically speaking to was the claim that an embryo/fetus can exercise some level of choice during the birth process, because this was the position put forth by choiceone.

And so, the proper context for the above would be "And my nails can stop growing if they don't want to be cut". Clearly regardless of our views on the morality of cutting nails, we can agree nails lack the ability to make such a choice. Because it isn't a conscious activity, it's a natural biological process that just occurs


PS maybe try actually following the discussion if you feel such a need to contribute
 
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I'm wondering what your authority is for making such assertions? Are you simply using right to mean current legal right? Because your strident tone would suggest something different.

I just mean current legal rights. In NY state, for example (I think this is true in federal law as well, and it is certainly true in more states), a person can use deadly force in various circumstances other than only when one perceives the life of oneself or another person is being threatened, e.g., cases of kidnapping, threat of or actual rape, sexual assault, and robbery. It is explicitly stated in the law that, even if one is sure that one's life is not being threatened, if someone is threatening you with rape or sexual assault or is actually raping or sexually assaulting you, you can use deadly force to prevent/stop that crime and a third party can, too. Similarly, it is against the law to appropriate any person's body, blood, or internal organ without that person's conscious consent even if it is necessary to save the life of another person. A doctor cannot draw your blood against your conscious will to save the life of another person even if yours is the only compatible blood type available. That's the sort of law I have in mind.
 

I'm not trying to attribute reason to a natural process - I'm saying that, because so many natural processes are so detrimental to persons, there is not a single reason to valorize them in general and persons should feel free to control them for the sake of persons, who are capable of reason.

I was only using "you" impersonally. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

If an embryo is not capable of making a choice and never has been, for me, that is tantamount to saying it has no personhood, because it is characteristic of all persons that they either are capable of mental choice or have demonstrated that capacity in the past so that we have a reason for hoping they will do so again.

Pregnancy and sexual intercourse are, in themselves, neutral phenomenon, both involving sexual organs. Wanted pregnancy and consensual sexual intercourse are alike in that a person has consented to them, in particular, the woman consents to pregnancy or consensual sexual intercourse. Unwanted pregnancy and rape are alike in that the woman does not consent to pregnancy or sexual intercourse. That makes perfect sense to me.

Sex cells and the embryo do not have to be classified as parasites to engage in biologically parasitic behavior. I am not equivocating. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "equivocate."
 

Now that is not what you originally argued at all. First you argued the lack of concent invalidated any right to exist in such a state. I pointed out there was no ability to give consent, and the Embryo is in it's position as part of the natural process of birth. You then shifted this to the zygote "being free to leave the boddy"



Ahh, so we are back to ignoring the entire context of the discussion to make you bizarre arguments less bizarre: Sorry, again, arguing the hypothetical effects of granting the fetus rights is not, in any way, advocating for those rights.

Secondly, we clearly have an expectation that a fetus will one day be capable of mental choice. So according to your argument above, it should be granted such rights. Obviously I disagree with this, but hopefully it will highlight the need to actually think through your arguments, as opposed to just saying what ever comes to your mind


Again, you're trying to attribute rational to a natural biological process


Unwanted pregnancy and rape are alike in that the woman does not consent to pregnancy or sexual intercourse. That makes perfect sense to me.

Because you apparently don't understand what equivocation is: Rape is someone forcing you into sexual intercourse. A pregnancy is a natural consequence of the sexual act. You can try to influence the process, but you and no one else actually has control over it


Sex cells and the embryo do not have to be classified as parasites to engage in biologically parasitic behavior. I am not equivocating. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "equivocate."

Yes, if you totally ignore that parasites are what engage in parasitic behavior in biology .... So yes, your attempt to confuse terms on very loose similarities is the entire basis behind equivocation
 

The zygote/blastocyst is free to leave the body, and we know this because many do leave it with the first menstruation after their development.



Either you are capable of mental choice now or you have been capable of it in the past, so that there is existing objective evidence that you may have it again. The idea that one has to respect the potential for future mental choice on the part of anyone or anything that has never demonstrated it is ridiculous to me. The issue is not what it may become, but what it now is or what it has been that provides evidence for what it may be. It is on that basis that I don't even think a zygote even deserves to be considered a future blastocyst, let alone a future born person.


If pregnancy were a natural consequence of the sexual act, every act of heterosexual PIV intercourse would naturally result in pregnancy. The fact that it does not occur in all cases leads thoughtful people to find out what actually causes pregnancy. Pregnancy is when a blastocyst successfully implants into the bodily tissue of a woman. But all women's immune systems naturally attempt to reject pregnancy - there is no known case, in fact, of a female mammal whose immune system T-cells and blood complement do not attempt to reject a blastocyst's implantation.

So if I say that a rapist forces a rape victim to have sexual intercourse, I see no reason why I cannot say that a blastocyst forces a woman to be pregnant. Both use physical force. Some rapists use chemical force to prevent women from fighting back, and all blastocysts use chemical force to make placentas use chemically force to prevent women's immune systems from fighting back. It still makes perfect sense to me to compare the two. The only thing that renders the implanting blastocyst innocent is the same only thing that renders the man engaged in PIV sexual intercourse innocent - the woman's consent.

Yes, if you totally ignore that parasites are what engage in parasitic behavior in biology .... So yes, your attempt to confuse terms on very loose similarities is the entire basis behind equivocation

You do not understand that all sorts of scientists have talked about this issue of parasitic behavior by individuals of species that are not considered parasites as a species.

A general perspective on parasitism by a leading authority: Parasitism (An Introduction to Parasitology) – Klaus Rohde

An example of intraspecific biological parasitism: Pietsch, T. W. 2005. Dimorphism, parasitism, and sex revisited: Modes of reproduction among deep-sea ceratioid anglerfishes (Teleostei: Lophiiformes). Ichthyological Research, 52(3): 207-236. (1.7 mb .pdf file)

A medical definition of parasitic fetus, a specialized term referring to a particular case of intraspecific biological parasitism that is thought by one theoretical school to be a function of asymmetric conjoined twin relationship: http://www.medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/parasitic+fetus parasitic fetus "in asymmetrical conjoined twins, an incomplete minor fetus attached to a larger, more completely developed twin."

References to the fetus-as-parasite model widespread in the late 19th and 20th centuries, in relation to nutrition:

1) Nurture Before Birth » American Scientist "in the first half of the 20th century many American obstetricians believed that the fetus was a 'perfect parasite,' extracting whatever nutrients it needed regardless of maternal diet . . ." [note: this model had to change to one of an 'imperfect parasite']

2) D J Naismith, The foetus as a parasite, in Nutrition of the foetus and the newly born (paper given at a conference and later included in the conference publication), http://www.journals.cambridge.org/d...85a.pdf&code=e452c78fd1110bb3ff41ae708a1ef5e1

Examples of writings in biology which refer to the fetus and/or placenta controlled by the fetus as parasitic:

Implantation and Development of the Placenta "Throughout gestation, the mammalian embryo is a parasite"

http://www.rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/204/1154/83.abstract Faulk, WP, and Galbraith, GMP, Trophoblast Transferrin and the Transferrin Receptors in the Host-Parasite Relationship of Human Pregnancy, In Proceedings of the Royal Society of London B 26, Mar 1979: 204, 1154: 83-97.

Lowry, PJ, The Placenta is Simply a Neuroendocrine Parasite, In Journal of Neuroendocrinology, Volume 20, issue 6 (June 2008), p. 700-704. ISSN: 0953-8194 DOI: 10.1111/jne.2008.20.issue-6
 
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The zygote/blastocyst is free to leave the body, and we know this because many do leave it with the first menstruation after their development.

1) you still seem to be trying to apply reason to a biological process

2) If it "leaves" the body it dies. So no, it's not actually "free" to leave


Either you are capable of mental choice now or you have been capable of it in the past, so that there is existing objective evidence that you may have it again.

By all objective standards, the reproduction process should produce an entity capable of mental choice ...

The idea that one has to respect the potential for future mental choice on the part of anyone or anything that has never demonstrated it is ridiculous to me.

Well, we are discussing the hypothetical of what happens if a fetus is granted rights. I'm not sure how many times I have to explain that you, before you stop making accusations and claims about my personal position on the matter. But it would clearly be acceptable to assume a pregnancy will produce an entity capable of free will. And I am unsure how the above undermines your earlier arguments on the subject (you are truly ALL OVER the place here)

The issue is not what it may become, but what it now is or what it has been that provides evidence for what it may be.

that doesn't even make sense


It is on that basis that I don't even think a zygote even deserves to be considered a future blastocyst, let alone a future born person.

Again, you seem intent on ignoring the context of the discussion so you have something to attack ...


If pregnancy were a natural consequence of the sexual act, every act of heterosexual PIV intercourse would naturally result in pregnancy.

Not really. Saying something is a natural consequence of something isn't saying that something is always the outcome of something, but the obvious outcome of it. And short of taking measures to prevent pregnancy, or some biological failure, heterosexual intercourse will likely lead to pregnancy, and is the biological basis for the sex drive


The fact that it does not occur in all cases leads thoughtful people to find out what actually causes pregnancy. Pregnancy is when a blastocyst successfully implants into the bodily tissue of a woman.

and what leads to this ....Sex


But all women's immune systems naturally attempt to reject pregnancy - there is no known case, in fact, of a female mammal whose immune system T-cells and blood complement do not attempt to reject a blastocyst's implantation.

ok? And my liver attempts to remove alcohol from my system, but the natural consequence of drinking alcohal is still becoming intoxicated ....


So if I say that a rapist forces a rape victim to have sexual intercourse, I see no reason why I cannot say that a blastocyst forces a woman to be pregnant.

Because it makes no sense: a rapist is an outside actor and rape is not a biological process. Pregnancy is a biological process and occurs internally


Both use physical force.

lol, more completely bizarre equivocations. A biological process is not rape. It's a biological process that has consequences that you just don't like.


Some rapists use chemical force to prevent women from fighting back, and all blastocysts use chemical force to make placentas use chemically force to prevent women's immune systems from fighting back.

There is no conscious effort on the end of the blastocyst and it is not an outside agent. It's biological material, and it function as part of your reproduction system. You might as well make the term "rape" totally meaningless and use it to refer to everything from the common cold to hey fever


It still makes perfect sense to me to compare the two. The only thing that renders the implanting blastocyst innocent is the same only thing that renders the man engaged in PIV sexual intercourse innocent - the woman's consent.

Right, and your hair is guilty of growing, that rock is guilty for being in your way, the sky is guilty for raining, your intestins are guilty for making you go to the bathroom, etc


Hopefully no more is needed to highlight how silly this line of reasoning is


You do not understand that all sorts of scientists have talked about this issue of parasitic behavior by individuals of species that are not considered parasites as a species.

Actually you seem to not understand my argument on this point: "parasitic behavior" =/= parasite. Your body, biologically speaking, is a baby making machine. A parasite is a foreign species
 

I don't know about any other women, but my body has never been a baby-making machine because:1) it is not a machine; 2) it has never been pregnant; 3) my body has served a number of other primary functions, including fulfilling a prophecy, fulfilling the prayers of three people by being born, making my parents happy, thinking, learning, acquiring various skills, using the learning and skills to increase the happiness and social/personal effectiveness of others, meditating, bearing witness to the truth, answering the prayers of numerous people, and making the harmless wishes of various people come true. The only people who have ever believed my body to be a baby-making machine are people who have been obsessed with sexual reproduction and who have stubbornly refused to respect my personhood, which has nothing to do with producing babies.

I have explained to you that it is possible to perceive an embryo/fetus and placenta as engaging in parasitic behavior and, on that account, to be temporarily a parasite. And I have also explained that, unlike a 15 year old, I am entirely uninterested in any sort of expected future behavior, because no one can count on expected future behavior if individual behavior of the past has not already shown it to be possible in each individual case.

You do not have the right to force a woman to continue a pregnancy based on your personal or even the government's hope about the future. No person has the right to use force to disable or keep in a state of disability a person's immune system. No one has the right to use force to re-channel a person's blood or keep it re-channeled. Etc.

If you do not understand that, you are ignorant of the meaning of human rights. And I will never claim that the right to life supercedes other basic human rights because the state in which I live acknowledges the right to use deadly force to stop or prevent rape, sexual assault, kidnapping, and robbery.

No live entity has a right to extend its life by using the body of a live person against his or her will and without his or her consent. Period.
 
I don't know about any other women, but my body has never been a baby-making machine

Biologically that is exactly what it is, and the entire purpose of your existence: to pump out offspring and continue your genetic line.


The only people who have ever believed my body to be a baby-making machine are people who have been obsessed with sexual reproduction and who have stubbornly refused to respect my personhood, which has nothing to do with producing babies.

as usual, your rather shallow form of thought betrays you: talking about the biological purpose of your body isn't an attempt to sign some "breeder role" to you as an individual. It's pointing out the biological part a female plays in a species. Taking offense to that is t=like taking offense to the fact that I pointed out women have ovaries ...


I have explained to you that it is possible to perceive an embryo/fetus and placenta as engaging in parasitic behaviorand, on that account, to be temporarily a parasite.

No, because a parasite is not the product of your bodies natural biological processes.
 

What has been learned in the last 40-odd years in medical research on women's health is that ovaries and even uteri have other functions more important than sexual reproduction, functions for women's health, e.g., the ovaries produce hormones that serve endocrine health. We have learned that women should never have hysterectomies, hysterotomies, or removal of ovaries unless it is absolutely necessary to save their lives because of the terrible negative health consequences.

The biological parts that women play in the human species include every single thing they contribute to human culture and science, because the human adaptation is primarily cultural, something that clearly distinguishes us from, say, cockroaches.
 
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The biological parts that women play in the human species include every single thing they contribute to human culture and science, because the human adaptation is primarily cultural, something that clearly distinguishes us from, say, cockroaches.

Nope, biologically your entire purpose is to pump out babies. This will remain true despite the bizarre ideological and rigid beliefs you try to adopt and promote.

Biologically, culture is completely irrelevant to the need to pass on genes and can even impede such
 
What if they offer their biological material as donation to save or increase the quality of the life of another?

then biologically they are a failure.
 
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