Italy may put CIA agents on trial in absentia

[NYStateofMind]

Not where terrorism is concerned!

Italy is much too liberal where terrorism is concerned, and they would have the whole operation tied up in red tape, and the terrorist would flee before we could get the cuffs on him. As I said, if it were for any other reason, I could find fault, but we are trying to protect this country, and we will take the war where ever it is necessary. This is nothing more then political posturing, and we can Ill afford to play this game right now. If they want a war over this, that's o.k, they need us, more then we need them, they will soon come to their collective senses.

So you don't support US sovereignty either. Interesting.

 

[Deegan]

So you don't support US sovereignty either. Interesting.

As my good friend Gunny suggested, this is not an issue, we would be the first to hand over any fugitive they were looking for, and on a silver platter. Unfortunately, they seem to be a tad bit stubborn, or maybe it's ignorant, or it might even be deliberate political posturing. Either way, they are standing in the way at every turn, and this can not be tolerated. I think Italian agents in this country would be cool, kinda like an honest mob family or something, the Sopranos go straight.

 

[NYStateofMind]

As my good friend Gunny suggested, this is not an issue, we would be the first to hand over any fugitive they were looking for, and on a silver platter. Unfortunately, they seem to be a tad bit stubborn, or maybe it's ignorant, or it might even be deliberate political posturing. Either way, they are standing in the way at every turn, and this can not be tolerated. I think Italian agents in this country would be cool, kinda like an honest mob family or something, the Sopranos go straight.

Since the US has refused to turn over the CIA agents in question, apparently we are not so eager to hand over fugitives that Italy is looking for on a silver platter.

Do you see the problem with your answer now? Maybe Italy should return the favor and just come and kidnap them....apparently you would have no problem with that. :lol:

 

[Deegan]

Since the US has refused to turn over the CIA agents in question, apparently we are not so eager to hand over fugitives that Italy is looking for on a silver platter.

Do you see the problem with your answer now? Maybe Italy should return the favor and just come and kidnap them....apparently you would have no problem with that. :lol:

They "may" put CIA agents on trial, and we would have to review the charges before extradition. That said, I don't think they will, this is just political posturing, and playing to their base, this has no teeth, hide and watch.

 

[NYStateofMind]

They "may" put CIA agents on trial, and we would have to review the charges before extradition. That said, I don't think they will, this is just political posturing, and playing to their base, this has no teeth, hide and watch.

But you said that we would hand over fugitives, remember? We aren't doing that. The agents broke the law, they are fugitives, and we are the ones dragging our feet and refusing to cooperate. So, applying the principle equally, the Italians would be justified in coming here and kidnapping them, wouldn't they?

Nations need to respect each other's sovereignty, even when it's inconvenient. It's just good policy. It's really no different than the argument McCain made about torture.

 

[Deegan]

But you said that we would hand over fugitives, remember? We aren't doing that. The agents broke the law, they are fugitives, and we are the ones dragging our feet and refusing to cooperate. So, applying the principle equally, the Italians would be justified in coming here and kidnapping them, wouldn't they?

Nations need to respect each other's sovereignty, even when it's inconvenient. It's just good policy. It's really no different than the argument McCain made about torture.

And if they are indeed indicted, and we believe a law has been broken, we will hand them over. As I said, and I hate to keep repeating myself, there is no indictment as of yet, and there will be none.

The spy game is played all over the world, catch one, and you can do as you like, but don't ask us to turn ours over, that is not how the game is played.

 

[KidRocks]

One less bad guy? Sounds good to me.

Submitted for you approval... another conservative who figures, after 9/11, we have a right to lie, cheat and steal.

But who can blame him, his leader, President Bush doesn't follow the "rule of law" anymore, doesn't have to, he's armed with the "Patriot-Act" and 9/11!

 

[KCConservative]

Submitted for you approval... another conservative who figures, after 9/11, we have a right to lie, cheat and steal.

But who can blame him, his leader, President Bush doesn't follow the "rule of law" anymore, doesn't have to, he's armed with the "Patriot-Act" and 9/11!

Don't worry, kid, he's just lying, cheating and stealing from you.

 

[teacher]

Question for all of you.

What would you think if the Italian equivalent of the CIA came to the US and kidnapped an American citizen, who was under surveillance as a suspected member of a terrorist organization, and removed him from the country without going through the proper procedure, or notifying any officials of the US government? Would you consider it to be just fine for a foreign agent to do such a thing?

Please, don't start with the gang attack accusing me of being a traitor or any of the other partisan rhetoric, just answer the question.

Stupid question. In this country? He'd be hogged tied. By us. When we were done with him then we would gladly turn him over.

We are the big dogs on the block. Have been and will be for some time. The rest of the world doesn't want to face this problem, or is it that they know we are and they are just playing the game while we take out the trash for them? Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[KCConservative]

Submitted for you approval... another conservative who figures, after 9/11, we have a right to lie, cheat and steal.

But who can blame him, his leader, President Bush doesn't follow the "rule of law" anymore, doesn't have to, he's armed with the "Patriot-Act" and 9/11!

By the way, he's your leader too. God, it must suck to be you.

 

[oldreliable67]

None of us really know the truth about what is going on with this Italian indictment business. We know what we've read in the public media: the Italians are p***ed that we apparently snatched a terror suspect on Italian soil without their knowledge.

What we don't know is if this is all there is to the story. It could be be legitimate outrage. I suspect its not. My guess is that there could be some Italian pols playing this to their political base, trying to make points, just like pols do here from time to time. There are a fair amount of socialists and even some die-hard communists in Italy, so this kind of thing would play right into their hands, giving them an opportunity to blast any US-friendly political opponents. (I traveled the length and breadth of Italy in April 2005, from Milan and Vienna to Florence and Siena - wonderful country, wonderful people.)

Historically, when its really serious, this kind of stuff plays out behind closed doors, at ambassadorial or presendial levels. Despite the rhetoric of this particular situation, Italy has been an ally in the GWOT; we have bases in Italy that we have used in flights to and from the ME, going all the way back to the Reagan era and actions against Libya, when the French denied us passage in their air space.

So, while it is impossible for us to say with any degree of certainty, largely because we're on the outside looking in, this looks very much like a home-grown Italian political power-play. If it were really something serious in a government-to-government sense, I don't think we would see nearly as much handwringing and rhetoric in the media.

 

[teacher]

By the way, he's your leader too. God, it must suck to be you.

I'm sure it does. But he gets to come here and vent. Therapy.

 

[KidRocks]

I'm sure it does. But he gets to come here and vent. Therapy.

I love it here, I get to make fun of your mentally-challenged President. I get to see your knee-jerk reactions but most fun of all is going to see the Bushies get kicked of office, one by one, starting in Nov. 2006 and climaxing in 2008!

Is this country great, or what?

LOL... and I love it!

 

[NYStateofMind]

And if they are indeed indicted, and we believe a law has been broken, we will hand them over. As I said, and I hate to keep repeating myself, there is no indictment as of yet, and there will be none.

The spy game is played all over the world, catch one, and you can do as you like, but don't ask us to turn ours over, that is not how the game is played.

They already have been indicted, in June of 2005.

Spying is one thing. Kidnapping is another. Usually "spies" don't create international incidents by kidnapping people off the street in broad daylight. That sort of blows their cover, overtly breaking laws like that, don't you think? I think these "spies" need some retraining in covert action.

From what I understand about this incident, the Italians had him under surveillance and were about to arrest him. We stepped on their toes, and prevented that case from going forward. Hardly the way allies work together, huh? I'm not surprised that they are upset.

 

[Deegan]

They already have been indicted, in June of 2005.

Spying is one thing. Kidnapping is another. Usually "spies" don't create international incidents by kidnapping people off the street in broad daylight. That sort of blows their cover, overtly breaking laws like that, don't you think? I think these "spies" need some retraining in covert action.

From what I understand about this incident, the Italians had him under surveillance and were about to arrest him. We stepped on their toes, and prevented that case from going forward. Hardly the way allies work together, huh? I'm not surprised that they are upset.

The only witness they have is the terrorist, the same terrorist they would like to arrest themselves. Their own government won't help them, and neither should we, this is political posturing by a zealous prosecuter. Just read the story again, it's all there, it's quite obvious to me, we will just have to agree to disagree.

"Prosecutors will count on the de facto testimony of Nasr himself, who briefly recounted the ordeal in conversations picked up in an Italian phone-tap. He has said he was flown to Egypt and tortured during interrogation.

Italian investigators have accused Nasr of ties to al Qaeda and a Milan judge has issued a warrant for his arrest. He has been held by Egyptian authorities, his lawyer has said."

 

[oldreliable67]

From the article...

Milan prosecutors...were growing tired of perceived foot-dragging by Washington and Rome over requests that would advance their investigation

Note that the prosecutors in this case are local Milan prosecutors, not Italian government prosecutors. This is important.

The United States has still not responded to a request in January by Italy for judicial assistance in the case, which could potentially allow Italian prosecutors to travel there to question suspects and gather evidence.

Neither has Italy's government responded to a request in November from prosecutors to seek the extradition of the agents from the United States.

Note that the Italian government appears to be somewhat less than cooperative with the local Milanese prosecutors.

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that this is (as I suggested earlier) a local Milanese political kerfuffle. My guess is this will be settled by the Italian government coming down hard on the Milanese prosecutors with instructions to shape up.

 

[MSgt]

First, I didn't say it was a fugitive, I said the individual was under surveillance as a suspected terrorist. However, regardless, the point is that we DIDN'T do that. We kidnapped the suspected terrorist, without consulting with the Italian government. We violated Italian sovereignty.
So, since the laws are inadequate, we just ignore them?

You didn't answer the question, you dodged it. Try again.

On the contrary, I very much answered it.

Until these governments get on board with what we are facing, they are not useful. They are in the way. This is war, not law enforcement. The problems people are having with today's actions is that they keep trying to extend our Constitution outside our borders and not recognizing that we are at war. I didn't say ignore the laws. I said they were indadequate, and therefore we cannot allow them to bind us from doing what we need to do to protect our people.

Were this the States, they know that we would work with them, therefore, it wouldn't happen.

"Soverignty" is a word for history. It is the word "Old Europe" and the "Global Left" use to exonerate themselves from helping people in another country. The descendents of Mussolini are the most passive and appeasing lot in southern Europe. In Somalia, they struck a deal with Farrah Addids men. The Italian forces would not come after them as long as they didn't cause trouble in their sector. (This meaqns that they used the Italian sector as a base of operations.) When the UN found out, they told the Marines. Marines from the 24th MEU, specifically Force Recon and Alpha Company backup, went in to get Farrah Aidid and discovered that he was tipped off by the Italien forces. Italy was asked to leave the UN mission. This is Italy in the face of aggression.

 

[teacher]

I love it here, I get to make fun of your mentally-challenged President. I get to see your knee-jerk reactions but most fun of all is going to see the Bushies get kicked of office, one by one, starting in Nov. 2006 and climaxing in 2008!

Is this country great, or what?

LOL... and I love it!

You could have responded to these posts where I give an opinion,

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=225615&postcount=6

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=225941&postcount=34

Yet you chose this one,

I'm sure it does. But he gets to come here and vent. Therapy.

the obvious joke post, like you're making a point. If you don't even try then your no fun to play with.

What will you do if what you say doesn't happen? Maybe a wager of some sort?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

It is you my friend who has contempt for the "rule of law", contempt for the "Constitution", contempt for the American way of life before Presedent Bush.

Wake-up before it's to late!

Try growing up first........