It was Republican who leaked CIA secret jails

[cnredd]

"God bless America and the American way."

Great...

Now you just pissed off the whole Liberal establishment...

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Great...

Now you just pissed off the whole Liberal establishment...

God and America in the same sentence? How dare you. :lol:

 

[MSgt]

Great...

Now you just pissed off the whole Liberal establishment...

I've been wanting to write a commentary on the "liberal establishment" and the global left. I'm sure we would see pissed off then.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Great...

Now you just pissed off the whole Liberal establishment...

Good, maybe if we **** them off enough they will understand our feeling when 9/11 happened and understand why we are doing what we are doing. But then again maybe not.

 

[danarhea]

I say you are ignoring the issues so you say that I'm not addressing the issues? What's the sense in debating with you? If it involves bashing Bush, you are ready to march. If it involves the issues regarding the Middle East you would rather remain obtuse, while bashing Bush. Pathetic. You have a plethora of bash threads to prove this.

So now you have gone from saying that I "tried to link Al-Queda and Saddam" to I "put them in the same post, thereby saying that they worked together?" Who's the liar here? Back peddling is sad. As is your knowledge of the Middle East. To suggest that Saddam had nothing to do with the oppression and decay that the region's civilization has used to create Islamic extremism is sheer ignorance.

What also reveals your agenda from post to post is that you are dead set on focusing on anything negative to fuel your hatred. I declare that America under all administrations have looked the other way when our allies have done things we don't approve of and you choose to only chastice Bush. Not very intelligent while attempting to "debate." Whining about the things our Government has done with regards to Saddam, while ignoring what it has done for generations for American interests is called grandstanding. It's selective bashing. More of why "debating" with you is senseless. I wonder if you even know our crime behind Islamic extremism in the Middle East? Probably nothing. Since you predicted, I'll predict....you probably think "foreign policy" and think you have it figured out. Ignorance of this is why you can;t understand why things like Iraq have to happen.

Polls show the ignorance and feeble mindendness of the American public. The polls during the 90's showed that America approved very much on how the country was being run. Never mind that in the mean time, the military was being attacked all over the place without retaliation. Here we are today and so many have gone from "kill for us" to "you poor military men are being used, we change our mind." No amount of grandstanding will change this civilization from wanting you dead and no amount of appeasment will keep them from creating more terrorist organizations in the furture. Iraq won't be the end. Sooner or later, the garbage will have to go back and deal with Syria, Iran, and Saudi. The sickness is what has allowed Americans to remain ignorant to what this "War on Terror" really means. Until you and your "ilk" decide to pull your head from your asses (whether you do it your self or an extremists does it for you), you will remain in the way. "God bless America and the American way."

Who is the one attempting to obfuscate the issue? I am the one who started this thread, and I was addressing the issue of torture in secret jails which used to be Soviet gulags. I addressed that rather well, since instead of debating the subject, you managed to change it. I congratulate you on that. And on the other subjects, you have continually talked around the Q, and attacked me personally. Of course, I attacked you personally right back. But the bottom line is, you are still dodging all my statements with nothing but rhetoric.

The only reason I have not put you on ignore like I have with a couple of others is because your aggressive style comes from being in the marines, and I understand that. In fact, I would be very disappointed if you did not respond as aggressively as you have been doing. The fact that you did assures me that you are going to do what you were trained to do, and do it willingly. I thank you for that, and I thank you for your service to this country. However, be prepared to accept the new direction that America is about to take. When the Bushneviks have been kicked out of office, I am confident that you will defend your new commander in chief, whoever he might be, just as hard as you are doing now. But that doesnt change what is going to happen. Hopefully, the new commander in chief after the 2008 elections will also be a Republican - He certainly wont be a Neocon. They are toast now. As much as we are bashing each other right now, I think we will pretty much be on the same side then, and that is good. I hate fighting with people who can be as big of an asshole as I can be.

 

[MSgt]

Good, maybe if we **** them off enough they will understand our feeling when 9/11 happened and understand why we are doing what we are doing. But then again maybe not.

They won't. They will continue to parade ignorance and think that if we get Bin Ladden that all will be safe. The will continue to parade around that Saddam, while being a bad man, was not a problem within this region, and he shuld have been left alone. The sun will shine and our Islamic extremist days will be behind. The Middle Eastern civilization will embrace democracy on their own, and the narcotic of blame will be a thing of the past. The dangers of an Islamic civilization that wishes them dead for the infidels that they are, will simply decide that "Allah" loves them too and that their religion has been wrong all along.:roll:

 

[cnredd]

I've been wanting to write a commentary on the "liberal establishment" and the global left. I'm sure we would see pissed off then.

Remember the first two phrases of the Liberal Handbook...

1) Jesus Christ!...God dammit!...Stop talking about religion!

2) I have the freedom to say whatever I want to!...So shut up!

 

[SKILMATIC]

They won't. They will continue to parade ignorance and think that if we get Bin Ladden that all will be safe. The will continue to parade around that Saddam, while being a bad man, was not a problem within this region, and he shuld have been left alone. The sun will shine and our Islamic extremist days will be behind. The Middle Eastern civilization will embrace democracy on their own, and the narcotic of blame will be a thing of the past. The dangers of an Islamic civilization that wishes them dead for the infidels that they are, will simply decide that "Allah" loves them too and that their religion has been wrong all along.:roll:

I think you are right. It is very pitiful but sadly true.

 

[MSgt]

Who is the one attempting to obfuscate the issue? I am the one who started this thread, and I was addressing the issue of torture in secret jails which used to be Soviet gulags. I addressed that rather well, since instead of debating the subject, you managed to change it. I congratulate you on that. And on the other subjects, you have continually talked around the Q, and attacked me personally. Of course, I attacked you personally right back. But the bottom line is, you are still dodging all my statements with nothing but rhetoric.

The only reason I have not put you on ignore like I have with a couple of others is because your aggressive style comes from being in the marines, and I understand that. In fact, I would be very disappointed if you did not respond as aggressively as you have been doing. The fact that you did assures me that you are going to do what you were trained to do, and do it willingly. I thank you for that, and I thank you for your service to this country. However, be prepared to accept the new direction that America is about to take. When the Bushneviks have been kicked out of office, I am confident that you will defend your new commander in chief, whoever he might be, just as hard as you are doing now. But that doesnt change what is going to happen. Hopefully, the new commander in chief after the 2008 elections will also be a Republican, but not a Neocon. As much as we are bashing each other right now, I think we will pretty much be on the same side then, and that is good. I hate fighting with people who can be as big of an asshole as I can be.

Of course, you started this thread. It was meant to bash Bush. There are many like this of your creation. Yet, you parade around that you are looking for "debate?" You claim to have "Q?" Ludicrous.

It doesn't matter what "direction America takes." The extremists of the Middle East and the civilization that continues to raise them, will continue their direction as well.

It's too late to pretend you are something you're not. Like three others on the left on this site, you've revealed yourself.......

"Call me whatever you want, but meanwhile, look at the poll numbers. You and your ilk are the ones in the final throes, as the Republcian party begins to throw off its parasitic host, and as Americans reject the sickness which, for a brief time, had its day. However, your day is now finished. Retire now to the garbage heap America is now throwing you back into. God bless America and the American way.

Of course, I am under no illusion. The seperation between the military and the civillians that are protected has existed since the '60s. The 90's served to show us that nothing changed and today is a reminder of it all. The garbage in uniform appreciates your sentiments and the "American way."

 

[danarhea]

Of course, you started it. It was meant to bash Bush. There are many like this of your creation. Yet, you parade around that you are looking for "debate?" You claim to have "Q?" Ludicrous.

It's too late to pretend you are something you're not. Like so many on the left, you've revealed yourself.......

"Call me whatever you want, but meanwhile, look at the poll numbers. You and your ilk are the ones in the final throes, as the Republcian party begins to throw off its parasitic host, and as Americans reject the sickness which, for a brief time, had its day. However, your day is now finished. Retire now to the garbage heap America is now throwing you back into. God bless America and the American way.

Of course, I am under no illusion. The seperation between the military and the civillians that are protected has existed since the '60s. The 90's served to show us that nothing changed and today is a reminder of it all. The garbage in uniform appreciates your sentiments and the "American way."

LOL. I see. Everybody who does not believe in Bush is a Liberal. LOL. That means 80% of Ameircans are now Liberal? You just cant stand it that your God is going down, can you?

check out this site - It won the Conservative Site of the Day Award. And antiwar.com? That is also a site put together by a coalition of Conservatives and Libertarians. In fact, it was started to protest Clinton's war in Yugoslavia, which we all know was his own attempt to wag the dog. Ohhh, but they are all Liberals, right? Your paranoia is showing, Gunny. You sure you didnt suffer a little shell shock somewhere during your last deployment?

Before you go to sleep, you had better check under your bed, and in your closet too. There might be a Liberal hiding in there, waiting to get ya. :rofl

 

[MSgt]

Remember the first two phrases of the Liberal Handbook...

1) Jesus Christ!...God dammit!...Stop talking about religion!

2) I have the freedom to say whatever I want to!...So shut up!

It's funny, cuz it's true.

 

[MSgt]

LOL. I see. Everybody who does not believe in Bush is a Liberal. LOL. That means 80% of Ameircans are now Liberal? You just cant stand it that your God is going down, can you?

check out this site - It won the Conservative Site of the Day Award. And antiwar.com? That is also a site put together by a coalition of Conservatives and Libertarians. In fact, it was started to protest Clinton's war in Yugoslavia, which we all know was his own attempt to wag the dog. Ohhh, but they are all Liberals, right? Your paranoia is showing, Gunny. You sure you didnt suffer a little shell shock somewhere during your last deployment?

Before you go to sleep, you had better check under your bed, and in your closet too. There might be a Liberal hiding in there. :rofl

I didn't say any of this, nor did I claim a "God." On the contrary, I disagree with a few things of Bush. Sucks that you wasted your time writing such an unintelligent post. I guess next you will call me a Republican. So far, I have yet to see any sign that you have a clue of the Middle East and what lies beneath Islamic extremism. Just ignorant bashing.

...and your link is supposed to.....what? Prove to us that you are really just a useless pacifist on a rampage or a champion appeaser of the unmoralistic world? There are cowards in every political party.

 

[danarhea]

I didn't say any of this, nor did I claim a "God." On the contrary, I disagree with a few things of Bush. Sucks that you wasted your time writing such an unintelligent post. So far, I have yet to see any sign that you have a clue of the Middle East and what lies beneath Islamic extremism. Just bashing.

Yes you did, when you started namecalling me a Liberal. I voted for Buchanan in 2000, Badnarik in 2004, believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned, believe strongly in the Second Amendment, and the 10th Amendment too. I was one of the very first to Bash Clinton over Monica and demand his resignation. And of course, I am a strong believer in unfettered Capitalism. Sucks that you continue to waste your time with such ignorance.

As for whether I have a clue of the Middle East and what lies beneath Islamic extremism, I have personal knowlege of the Middle East. I work for an Iranian-owned contracting company. The president of the company was persecuted by the Shah of Iran, and by the Khomeini government after the Shah was gone. His crime? Being of the Baha'i faith. Many of his relatives were tortured to death by both regimes, but he did end up having the last laugh. After graduating college, his daughter went to Iran to teach women, something that is regarded by many in the government of Iran as deserving of death. However, although she was threatened, she was not touched, because an Islamic lawyer named Ebadi had laid the groundwork for her and people like her to question the government, and to disobey. Ebadi had won the Nobel Peace Prize by quoting the Quran in the faces of the Islamic judges and shaming them. By the way, Ebadi is Islamic. Just like any other religion, there are nutcases in Islam. They are no different than people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell here. The difference is that they are held in check in America, and not allowed to carry out their hatred against fellow citizens. Of course, the same cannot be said of people who practice religious hatred in Iran. However, just as their are decent Christians in America who practice what they preach, there are also decent Muslims, although much fewer, in the Middle East. Ebadi is one of them, and she is making a huge difference there. People like her should be supported, because in the end, it will be people like her that change Iran, just as their were people in America who chose to stand up to the Salem Witchcraft Trials.

Finally, no matter how you attempt to spin it, torture is not only morally wrong, but an abomination unto the Lord, and is one of the reasons that we have lost our position as the world's guiding light. Its not too late to change that, and when the Bushneviks are gone, I hope that our new leaders work hard to address all the damage the Neocons have done to America's once golden image.

 

[MSgt]

Yes you did, when you started namecalling me a Liberal. I voted for Buchanan in 2000, Badnarik in 2004, believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned, believe strongly in the Second Amendment, and the 10th Amendment too. I was one of the very first to Bash Clinton over Monica and demand his resignation. And of course, I am a strong believer in unfettered Capitalism. Sucks that you continue to waste your time with such ignorance.

Ummm no I didn't. I merely compared you to liberals. And like a Libertarian..you waste your votes. Sucks that you waste your time thinking your "demands" matter.

As for whether I have a clue of the Middle East and what lies beneath Islamic extremism, I have personal knowlege of the Middle East. I work for an Iranian-owned contracting company. The president of the company was persecuted by the Shah of Iran, and by the Khomeini government after the Shah was gone. His crime? Being of the Baha'i faith. Many of his relatives were tortured to death by both regimes, but he did end up having the last laugh. After graduating college, his daughter went to Iran to teach women, something that is regarded by many in the government of Iran as deserving of death. However, although she was threatened, she was not touched, because an Islamic lawyer named Ebadi had laid the groundwork for her and people like her to question the government, and to disobey. Ebadi had won the Nobel Peace Prize by quoting the Quran in the faces of the Islamic judges and shaming them. By the way, Ebadi is Islamic. Just like any other religion, there are nutcases in Islam. They are no different than people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell here. The difference is that they are held in check in America, and not allowed to carry out their hatred against fellow citizens. Of course, the same cannot be said of people who practice religious hatred in Iran. However, just as their are decent Christians in America who practice what they preach, there are also decent Muslims, although much fewer, in the Middle East. Ebadi is one of them, and she is making a huge difference there. People like her should be supported, because in the end, it will be people like her that change Iran, just as their were people in America who chose to stand up to the Salem Witchcraft Trials.

Nice little story, but there's hardly any comparison to the fanatics of Christianity in America. Until the Christian Coalition declare war on "heathens" and start skyjacking airplanes and crashing them into Muslim cities, start walking into a crowd of Muslim civillians and detonating himself, all the while claiming "God's" will, comparing the two is irresponsible at best. Also, until America starts raising their children to hate and despise all that are not like them under the rule of oppression, comparing the Middle Eastern civilization to us is equally irresponsible at best. I guess if not held in check, Pat Robertson would start lining up 'heathens" and lopping their heads off. :roll: You obviously understand what grows beneath Islamic extremism, but you seem to lack the conviction to address the issues. Furthermore, you think Saddam should have been untouched. Doesn't make sense unless you are a pacifist and are only simply bashing Bush and the war. You al;so back bash Kosovo, so you are obviously a fan of "minding our own business." Unfortunately, the Islamic population in the Middle East are determined to make things our business.

Finally, no matter how you attempt to spin it, torture is not only morally wrong, but an abomination unto the Lord, and is one of the reasons that we have lost our position as the world's guiding light. Its not too late to change that, and when the Bushneviks are gone, I hope that our new leaders work hard to address all the damage the Neocons have done to America's once golden image.

Whatever. America's once "golden image" was just that...an image. There's nothing new being done that wasn't always done behind the "image." I can't believe, you've spent fifty years of your life with such an illusion. We've lost nothing. We have forced the appeasing world to face some truths about themselves and they didn't like it. The same truths that make them impotent to help anyone else. The same truths that make them ignore what is going on across their borders and are too selfish to do anything about. I wouldn't be so quick to yearn for the approval of such hypocrits.

 

[danarhea]

Ummm no I didn't. I merely compared you to liberals. And like a Libertarian..you waste your votes. Sucks that you waste your time thinking your "demands" matter.

You can call it a wasted vote, but I call it a moral choice. I cannot condone any leader who outspends the Liberals, grows the government bigger than the Liberals ever did, mocks Adam Smith, and believes in torture while professing to be Christian.

Nice little story, but there's hardly any comparison to the fanatics of Christianity in America. Until the Christian Coalition declare war on "heathens" and start skyjacking airplanes and crashing them into Muslim cities, start walking into a crowd of Muslim civillians and detonating himself, all the while claiming "God's" will, comparing the two is irresponsible at best. Also, until America starts raising their children to hate and despise all that are not like them under the rule of oppression, comparing the Middle Eastern civilization to us is equally irresponsible at best. I guess if not held in check, Pat Robertson would start lining up 'heathens" and lopping their heads off. :roll: You obviously understand what grows beneath Islamic extremism, but you seem to lack the conviction to address the issues. Furthermore, you think Saddam should have been untouched. Doesn't make sense unless you are a pacifist and are only simply bashing Bush and the war. You al;so back bash Kosovo, so you are obviously a fan of "minding our own business." Unfortunately, the Islamic population in the Middle East are determined to make things our business.

The only reason our fanatics have not murdered people is because they are held in check. Does not stop them, however, from cursing those who disagree with them, and telling them that God is going to destroy them. But Jesus did say that there was a place in hell reserved for the hypocrites. However, unlike them, I will not wish them harm. I pray that they will repent.

Whatever. America's once "golden image" was just that...an image. There's nothing new being done that wasn't always done behind the "image." I can't believe, you've spent fifty years of your life with such an illusion. We've lost nothing. We have forced the appeasing world to face some truths about themselves and they didn't like it. The same truths that make them impotent to help anyone else. The same truths that make them ignore what is going on across their borders and are too selfish to do anything about. I wouldn't be so quick to yearn for the approval of such hypocrits.

A comment worthy of Machiavelli and even Karl Marx himself. The ends justify the means. However, supporting torture is reprehensible. There is no truth is torture, unless one wants to be exactly like the Soviets were. And in emulating the tactics of the Communists, we become like them. George Orwell, in Animal farm, put it succinctly iin the last paragraph, when he wrote of the humans and pigs sitting around a table, and nobody could tell which was which. Orwell hated Communism, and the book Animal farm was about Communism. 1984 was also a bash on Communism, except that what he wrote parallels what is happening in America today. That wont go on for much longer, because there are still patriots left who will not allow the Neocon plan to survive. Indeed, the Neocons are in their last throes before they permanently disappear from politics.

 

[Comrade Brian]

George Orwell, in Animal farm, put it succinctly iin the last paragraph, when he wrote of the humans and pigs sitting around a table, and nobody could tell which was which. Orwell hated Communism, and the book Animal farm was about Communism.

Animal farm was anti-Stalinist, which is what the USSR became, and Animal Farm also tried to show that the Tsars/capitalists weren't any better as they were the humans, the Jones' were rather repressive, as were the other farmers, Orwell was a socialist.

 

[SKILMATIC]

LOL. I see. Everybody who does not believe in Bush is a Liberal. LOL. That means 80% of Ameircans are now Liberal? You just cant stand it that your God is going down, can you?

check out this site - It won the Conservative Site of the Day Award. And antiwar.com? That is also a site put together by a coalition of Conservatives and Libertarians. In fact, it was started to protest Clinton's war in Yugoslavia, which we all know was his own attempt to wag the dog. Ohhh, but they are all Liberals, right? Your paranoia is showing, Gunny. You sure you didnt suffer a little shell shock somewhere during your last deployment?

Before you go to sleep, you had better check under your bed, and in your closet too. There might be a Liberal hiding in there, waiting to get ya. :rofl

Ummm... gunny doesnt beleive in god. So your whole argument form there is flawed. Gunny doesnt suffer from any shell shock he gives shell shock to others. I know this because I knwo what type of individual he is. He is very strong and has a back bone the size of a california redwood tree. You had better check yourself before you wreck yourself.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Btw, darnehea animal farm in no way supplements your argument. How does a book about totalitariansm and power corruption have to do with yuor argument that if someone beleives in Bush he is a liberal and a god hater? I dont quite see the correlation here bud. Can you please enlighten me?

 

[MSgt]

You can call it a wasted vote, but I call it a moral choice. I cannot condone any leader who outspends the Liberals, grows the government bigger than the Liberals ever did, mocks Adam Smith, and believes in torture while professing to be Christian.

What ever kind of choice it is.....it is still wasted. You assume too much and have drawn conclusions from heresay and rumours. I've yet to hear him say that he "believes" in torture. Again..replacing the word "interrogation" with the word "torture" does not make it torture even if it does allow you more hate.

The only reason our fanatics have not murdered people is because they are held in check. Does not stop them, however, from cursing those who disagree with them, and telling them that God is going to destroy them. But Jesus did say that there was a place in hell reserved for the hypocrites. However, unlike them, I will not wish them harm. I pray that they will repent.

Your logic is weak. After making assumptions, would have's, could have's, and probablies, you are still left with reality. Excusing one civilizations failures and it's deadly symptoms by saying another civilization could be just as bad if certain things weren't held in check, is apologetic appeasement.

The world's full of hypocrisy and everyone is filthy of it. Bush is just like any other Christian who has solid beliefs, but must live a life upon man's earth. The only difference is that he makes decisions with an entire country to care for. How luxurious it must be for a self righteous Christian like yourself to be able to make decisions for only a few. Just because you can't understand it, doesn't mean you got it figured out. There is more to the issue than just Iran and there is more to the picture than simple terrorism.

How Christian of you to wish that the Iraqi population was still under the abusive control of Saddam. How Christian of you to think that our troops have died for nothing. How Christian of you to think that Iraqi freedom is nothing. I think we've gotten to the heart of the matter. You're just a "Christian" pacifist on a rampage. Truth be known, if Iraq and Afghanistan didn't happen, then you would have very minor problems with Bush. This has everything to do with war in general. Strange how my uprbringing in churches and my beliefes in God are so different from yours. I guess Heaven is reserved for your visions of God, not us garbage. I wonder if King David is in Hell. He fought for God too. Come to think of it..God told Joshua to kill everyone in Jericho. I wonder where his soul is. According to you..they are both in hell.

A comment worthy of Machiavelli and even Karl Marx himself. The ends justify the means. However, supporting torture is reprehensible. There is no truth is torture, unless one wants to be exactly like the Soviets were. And in emulating the tactics of the Communists, we become like them. George Orwell, in Animal farm, put it succinctly iin the last paragraph, when he wrote of the humans and pigs sitting around a table, and nobody could tell which was which. Orwell hated Communism, and the book Animal farm was about Communism. 1984 was also a bash on Communism, except that what he wrote parallels what is happening in America today. That wont go on for much longer, because there are still patriots left who will not allow the Neocon plan to survive. Indeed, the Neocons are in their last throes before they permanently disappear from politics.

Regardless, it is fact. Your sense of what this country used to be is niave. This countries government is the same as it has always been. The only difference now, is that we have a media monster that is eager to expose anything for money, and a mass of people that salivate at contriversey. Being angry at your government for finally reacting after thirty years of ignoring the escilating Islamic problem in the Middle East is rediculous. Perhaps Bush should have continued to ignore the military analysts and social reformacist that have been ignored by three Presidents before him so that a President in the future would have to deal with it. Bush Sr. was very well aware of the issues regarding the Middle East and the future inevitable dangers to us it posed, yet he did nothing. The longer we pretended that all was OK, the worst it got and the worse it will get in the future. Of course, by then, the problem would call for far more drastic measures. At least today, Iraq posed as the only country in the Middle East, where military ground assault was necessary. In the future, we probably would not have been so lucky.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Ummm... gunny doesnt beleive in god. So your whole argument form there is flawed. Gunny doesnt suffer from any shell shock he gives shell shock to others. I know this because I knwo what type of individual he is. He is very strong and has a back bone the size of a california redwood tree. You had better check yourself before you wreck yourself.

In context of the statement "your God" appears to mean Bush. It seems you did wreck yo'sef