It was Republican who leaked CIA secret jails

[Deegan]

There is a big difference:

On one hand, you have a Republican Senator or staffer who, out of a sense of morality, told America that we are running secret torture prisons in old Soviet gulags.

On the other hand, you have a petty and vindictive man who not only outed a CIA agent, but destroyed the front company she worked for, which was looking for weapons of mass destruction. Libby compromised the security of the United States in order to exact a petty and vindictive retribution on someone who told Americans that the documents which helped lead us to war were as phoney as a three dollar bill.

Of course, I can understand how some ethically challenged people would not understand the difference. Or do they know the difference, and like Machiavelli and Karl Marx, take the position that the ends justify the means, no matter how repulsive and immoral those means are?

No Dan, he is charged for no such thing, and it's not responsible, nor is it appropriate to assume he outed anyone. My guess is, if there were any evidence to suggest anyone had outed the agent, they would now be charged for that crime. So let us all just remember this, as we don't become hypocrites ourselves, by talking about destroying others lives, as we all do the very same to this man.

 

[KCConservative]

No Dan, he is charged for no such thing, and it's not responsible, nor is it appropriate to assume he outed anyone.

Being responsible or appropriate is not a concern for the left when they get backed into a corner. With the Republicans firmly in control of the White House, both houses of Congress, the High Court and the majority of Governorships, the libs will do and say anything in an attempt to regain some power. Lies and distortions are of no concern.

 

[Binary_Digit]

With the Republicans firmly in control of the White House, both houses of Congress, the High Court and the majority of Governorships, the libs will do and say anything in an attempt to regain some power. Lies and distortions are of no concern.

The sad part is, "libs" don't need lies and distortions to make Bush look bad. The truth stands on its own.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Ok, I'll reword them so they imply something's being solved. :2razz:

- Keep abortion legal, minimize unwanted pregnancies through education
- Federal funding for stem cell research to cure cancer, diabetes, paralysis, and maybe AIDS
- Abolish Federal death penalty, encourage States to do the same to remove the possibility of terminating the innocent, and to declare at the national level that it's wrong to kill in order to say killing is wrong
- Civil unions for homosexuals to end that stupid debate before I gouge my eyeballs out
- Higher taxes for the rich, lower taxes for the middle class so the middle class will spend more and stimulate the economy
- War is a last resort, not a preemptive strike so we don't attack countries based on shaky intelligence and end up looking like fools

Wow you be sough dumb and lefty liberal batsh+t crazee. Hooward Deen must be told ewe to0 saigh dat stupid stugh. :roll:

 

[libertarian_knight]

Tax and spend for everything but the protection of the country, yep, you have nailed it down pretty well sir.

what the hell is with fortune cookie length political commentary? so many Americans seem to have the attention span of a retarded hamster. I mean would rational people actually think that the totality of political thought is lumped up into one 20-word statement? I know I can get wooooordy, and have to limit myself, but I just wish some people would make an effort.

I agree, tax and spend is bad, but these jerks in office are borrow and spend kings, and make FDR look like Henry David Thoroeau. What's worse, is borrowing has to be paid back, and these pricks know that tax renevue (which they do not have, thus the borrowing) will have to increase. They aren't going to get another internet boom for the economy, so that mean 1) inflation or 2) increasing taxes. which SUCKS

oh yeah, they have choosen the inflation route too, look at the GDP reports, horrible stuff, in five short years.

EDIT
incidentally, this first paragraph is not necessarily direct toward the quoted chatter, but rather the behavior at large. I don't know people here enough yet, and the poster in particular to figure out whether he's a retarded hamster or not. Just tired, in general, having seen better political commentary spew forth from the guts of drunk high school cheerleaders, in steamy piles on the wintery sidewalks of my city.

 

[ProudAmerican]

He's helping the American side dipstick. Can you stop acting like politics is a team sport FOR ONCE?

you think leaking top secret information for the world, and the enemy to use against us is "helping" the American side.

thats the difference between the thought process of the left and the right.

 

[Stinger]

There is a big difference:

Classfied is classified and the information being leaked about CIA detention centers is FAR FAR more damaging and endanger to others than the silly Plame leak.

On one hand, you have a Republican Senator or staffer who,

There is no evidence to support your assertion that it was a Republican.

out of a sense of morality,

There is no evidence someone leaked it out of a sense of morality.

told America that we are running secret torture prisons in old Soviet gulags located in Eastern Europe.

Provide evidence that any torture is involved or that they are located in old Soviet gulags.

On the other hand, you have a petty and vindictive man who not only outed a CIA agent,

And your evidence he is petty and vindictive?

but destroyed the front company she worked for

,

It had not existed for years and the CIA outed it years ago, you are doing a very good job of proving you don't know what you are talking about and have no evidence to support your assertions.

Libby compromised the security of the United States in order to exact a petty and vindictive retribution on someone who told Americans that the documents which helped lead us to war were as phoney as a three dollar bill.

Actually he was assuring our national security wasn't harmed by the fraud Wilson and his wife tried to commit on you.

Of course, I can understand how some ethically challenged people would not understand the difference.

Actually I can understand how someone who has no idea what the facts are would make the phoney assertions you make.

Or do they know the difference, and like Machiavelli and Karl Marx, take the position that the ends justify the means, no matter how repulsive and immoral those means are?

What ends, where is your proof that torture is being committed that we are treating people like the Soviet gulags did. The fact is you don't have any so the question is why do you paint it that way?

 

[Stinger]

The sad part is, "libs" don't need lies and distortions to make Bush look bad. The truth stands on its own.

The truely sad part is that the Democrats are lying through their teeth and many, apparently including you, fall for it.

 

[scottyz]

you think leaking top secret information for the world, and the enemy to use against us is "helping" the American side.

thats the difference between the thought process of the left and the right.

Trent Lott is a lefty now? :lol:

 

[danarhea]

Trent Lott is a lefty now? :lol:

Lott is a lefty because those who are backing Bush dont have any real arguments. I have seen them call Bill O'Reilly a lefty when he disagrees with Bush. I have seen them call FOX News, Newsmax, Republicans, and even Neocons lefties. I saw one call Bush a lefty once, after I quoted him. They make their accusations not from a rational thinking process, but out of sheer ignorance, along with the fact that they are attempting to defend the indefensible.

 

[Binary_Digit]

you think leaking top secret information for the world, and the enemy to use against us is "helping" the American side.

thats the difference between the thought process of the left and the right.

First, there's no way in hell the enemy can effectively use this information against us. You're painting it to be something it's not. The only way this is useful to the enemy is the American propoganda defeat of having the world know we're torturing people at secret jails all across the world. I blame the person who authorized it, and you blame the person who leaked it. In your own words, "thats the difference between the thought process of the left and the right."

Second, you're damn right it's helping the American side. My government: when right to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Exposing government corruption (in a responsible way) is one of the most "American" things anyone can do.

 

[Binary_Digit]

And yes, of course the CIA is torturing people at these secret jails. The President has made his stance on torture very clear: threatening to veto McCain's bill, and with Cheney's request that the CIA be exempt from it, constantly stating that terrorists aren't protected by U.S. anti-torture laws because they aren't on U.S. soil... Any rational person knows that Bush's U.S.A. is torturing terrorists. Want a real Bush lie? Here's one: "we do not torture."

 

[Stinger]

First, there's no way in hell the enemy can effectively use this information against us.

There's lots of ways in hell they can use this information, but the fact is it is classified and if the left was going to make such a storm about Plame well here is a REAL security leak, why are they not screaming about it.

You're painting it to be something it's not.

No one is doing that at all, it is being painted as exactly what it is.

The only way this is useful to the enemy is the American propoganda defeat of having the world know we're torturing people at secret jails all across the world.

Why do you automatically assume we are torturing people there?

I blame the person who authorized it, and you blame the person who leaked it. In your own words, "thats the difference between the thought process of the left and the right."

Yes it is.

Second, you're damn right it's helping the American side. My government: when right to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Exposing government corruption (in a responsible way) is one of the most "American" things anyone can do.

This isn't about "corruption" it's about the war on terrorism, who's side are you on?

 

[Stinger]

And yes, of course the CIA is torturing people at these secret jails.

"yes, of course" OK give us your definitive iron-clad proof and describe exactly what it is you are calling torture.

 

[Crispy]

First, there's no way in hell the enemy can effectively use this information against us. You're painting it to be something it's not. The only way this is useful to the enemy is the American propoganda defeat of having the world know we're torturing people at secret jails all across the world. I blame the person who authorized it, and you blame the person who leaked it. In your own words, "thats the difference between the thought process of the left and the right."

Second, you're damn right it's helping the American side. My government: when right to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Exposing government corruption (in a responsible way) is one of the most "American" things anyone can do.

You're also painting it to be something it may not be. The world assumes we're torturing prisoners. They know about incidents not policy. The message the administration has stated it wishes to convey is that it does not want enemy combatants to know and prepare for our interrogation methods and by endorsing anti-torture legislation they're stating their boundaries. I see no reason to state such boundaries nor does this imply the endorsement of a policy of torture.

When I see the memo out of the White house that says to connect electrodes to the detainees genitals then I'll be convinced. Otherwise all we're doing is "irresponsibly" accusing the administration of corrupt policy which is "Hurting" america by propagating negative sentiment around the world for something that may or may not be true. Considering that our country's citizens are innocent until proven guilty, this negative message being sent to the world by our own people and left leaning politicians indicting the administration is only serving to weaken our position in the world.

If through investigation and indictment the administration is proven to have broken laws or acted in an un-ethical way I'll be the first with a pitch fork in my hand to have em all punished, but until that time comes I prefer to stand behind our leaders no matter the accusations. Or does the adminsitration not deserve the same treatment that you're willing to give the suicide bombers and terrorists in their right to a fair trial and innocence until proven guilty?

 

[Binary_Digit]

There's lots of ways in hell they can use this information, but the fact is it is classified and if the left was going to make such a storm about Plame well here is a REAL security leak, why are they not screaming about it.

Because morals would dictate that there's a difference between exposing government corruption and ruining a CIA agent's career.

No one is doing that at all, it is being painted as exactly what it is.

It's being painted as comparable to selling nuclear secrets or something. Knowing they exist, but not exactly where, is hardly a vital piece of intel for terrorists. Who would doubt the existance of more prisons than Gitmo and Abu Ghraib anyway?

I agree that intel leaks as a whole are not acceptable. But if the CIA were involved in kiddie porn, I would be thankful for someone to break their security obligations and come forward. It's a moral thing.

Why do you automatically assume we are torturing people there?

Already anwered.

This isn't about "corruption" it's about the war on terrorism, who's side are you on?

I'm on the side of truth. The corruption I was talking about is torture, not just the existence of secret prisons.

"yes, of course" OK give us your definitive iron-clad proof and describe exactly what it is you are calling torture.

Ok. Promise to read this time? Here goes...

The President has made his stance on torture very clear: threatening to veto McCain's bill, and with Cheney's request that the CIA be exempt from it, constantly stating that terrorists aren't protected by U.S. anti-torture laws because they aren't on U.S. soil...

And the definition of torture is clear and easy to find:

"(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality" - United States Code TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C, Para. 2340

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html

So in review:

1. Bush has repeatedly asserted that detainees aren't subject to U.S. torture laws because they aren't on U.S. soil
2. Attourney General Gonzales wants to change the above definition of torture so that more harsh forms of interrogation are allowed (re: Bybee memo)
3. Bush threatened to veto a bill that would bar U.S. forces from torturing terrorists
4. When the House votes 90 - 9 in favor of the bill, Cheney asks that CIA agents be exempt from it

Now, if you can tell me why it's not reasonable to conclude that the Bush administration favors using torture, I'm all ears.

 

[oldreliable67]

ruining a CIA agent's career

Thats quite a leap. How do you get from Plame's being a desk jockey analyst with her picture in Vanity Fair to having her career ruined?

 

[Binary_Digit]

Thats quite a leap. How do you get from Plame's being a desk jockey analyst with her picture in Vanity Fair to having her career ruined?

Novak's article ruined her career at the CIA, I wasn't aware that was in dispute. And the Vanity Fair cover was AFTER she was outed by Novak's article. I don't really want to talk about that soap opera anyway. Stinger is the one who brought it up, regarding the selective uproar over recent security leaks.

When I see the memo out of the White house that says to connect electrodes to the detainees genitals then I'll be convinced.

You haven't seen the Bybee memo?

"In the Justice Department's view -- contained in a 50-page document signed by Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee and obtained by The Washington Post -- inflicting moderate or fleeting pain does not necessarily constitute torture. Torture, the memo says, "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23373-2004Jun7.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf

 

[danarhea]

Thats quite a leap. How do you get from Plame's being a desk jockey analyst with her picture in Vanity Fair to having her career ruined?

That she was an analyst is just Bushnevik spin, used to justify their attacks against her. Valerie Plame was a NOC, which was the most covert an agent can get. It is so covert that, if she were to be captured by an unfriendly nation, she would not qualify for diplomatic immunity. Not only was she outed, but the front company she worked for was put out of business. That front company, along with Plame herself, were an intelligence resource which were dedicated to finding weapons of mass destruction. The action of outing her was treason against the United States of America.

As for the Vanity Fair picture, tell me where Vanity Fair says that Plame is a CIA agent when that picture was taken. Oh, thats right, you cant. Oops, there goes your spin - round and round, right down the toilet.

 

[ProudAmerican]

The sad part is, "libs" don't need lies and distortions to make Bush look bad. The truth stands on its own.

if that is truly the case, then maybe you can explain the constant, daily attacks to do just that (make him look bad)

maybe you can explain Dan Rathers thinking.....if there was no need for him to do that in the first place.

 

[MSgt]

Seems that, nowadays, the Bushneviks can no longer torture people in secret jails without members of their own party spilling the beans. Said Trent Lott, "we can't keep our mouths shut". That is good, and to the Republican Senator or staffer who let the cat out of the bag, kudos to you, and may you have a long and successful political career. We need more like you in government.

Article is here.

....and another senseless thread. What does being a Republican or a Democrat have to do with the leak? You must be an emotional political wreck.

 

[danarhea]

....and another senseless thread. What does being a Republican or a Democrat have to do with the leak? You must be an emotional political wreck.

Actually, the thread shows that there are still Republicans with morals, and Republicans need every bit of threads like this nowadays. As for being an emotional political wreck, not at all, so you can take your namecalling back to your playground.

 

[KCConservative]

Actually, the thread shows that there are still Republicans with morals, and Republicans need every bit of threads like this nowadays. As for being an emotional political wreck, not at all, so you can take your namecalling back to your playground.

:rofl This coming from the King of Namecalling.

 

[MSgt]

:rofl This coming from the King of Namecalling.

Yes...I've noticed that too.

 

[MSgt]

Actually, the thread shows that there are still Republicans with morals, and Republicans need every bit of threads like this nowadays. As for being an emotional political wreck, not at all, so you can take your namecalling back to your playground.

Not an emotional wreck? Hmmmmm...I wonder who is obsessed with plastering the site with any scrap of bash material that can be drudged up? I wonder who's threads are started, not with some questions of debate, but a more "in your face" Republican theme instead? Please. It's more comical than anything else. Maybe you can dig up a story on how President Bush and the Republican Party are killing the rain forest because they use more toilet paper than the Democrats too.:roll:

Morality? I love this tactic. The global left is perhaps the most morally decrepit and inconsistent people on the planet. Want a commentary?

Here are two questions....

1) Is it moral to turn our backs on a people that are being abused and oppressed by a tyrannical dictator?

or

2) Is it moral to destroy said dictator's regime and allow the abused to create their own democratic government? (Thereby helping our interests along the way, of course.)

It's a simple question..let's hear about morality and how the Republicans "need" all they can get. Answer?