Israeli soldier 'seized' in raid (1 Viewer)

[Jay R]

Following a suprise attack launched from a tunnel by Palestinian militants on the Kerem Shalom border crossing with the Gaza strip, an Israeli soldier, nineteen year old Corporal Gilad Shalit, has gone missing and appears to have been taken hostage.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5115092.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5115500.stm

Obviously one must fear for his safety and sympathize with his family, particularly in light of the execution of two captured US soldiers in Iraq. though it has been suggested that he will be used as leverage to gain the release of Palestinians from Israeli prisons.

Post your thoughts, particularly how you think a protracted hostage situation could affect the situation in the region.



Personally, I recall an incident where two Israeli soldiers were butchered by Palestinians a few years ago. There was an unforgettable and powerful image of one of the killers leaning out of a window of the house where the killing occurred, his hands drenched in blood, to the adulation of a mob. It was one of those images that burn themselves indelibly into your memory and it still springs to my mind to this day when Palestinian violence flares up. This incident reminded me of it. I think it was the first time that I saw something that was 'evil' for want of a better word, the relish of the bloodshed was unsettling and lives with me to this day.

I don't think taking a hostage is going to do anything for the Palestinians, it puts a very human face on the Israeli army that will only rally sympathy and solidarity from Israelis, and bring down further pressure from the international community. The fact that this well planned attack took place in the recently vacated Gaza strip will only further highlight the inpossibility of doing business with Hamas, Islamic jihad, and Palestinian militancy in general. I find it frustrating that the EU has only just resumed the aid payments that prop up the Palestinian state, that money may bypass the Hamas government but I'm of the opinion that they will continue with their present policy of confrontation and count on the influence of EU and US liberal lobbyists to keep the aid flowing for humanitarian reasons. I'm leaning towards advocating the suspension of aid, if it drives the Palestinian state to the brink of collapse then that is the price to be paid for the path they and their government have chosen, better to impose that scenario than to subsidise a state that shows no attempt to engage in peaceful resolution.

 

[Joby]

I would have the family of one of the innocent Palestinians killed by a Zionist "accident" do it.

 

[Gardener]

I would have the family of one of the innocent Palestinians killed by a Zionist "accident" do it.

How truly sick.

 

[Captain America]

I would have the family of one of the innocent Palestinians killed by a Zionist "accident" do it.

Myself, I would be worried about more innocents getting whacked. As long as the Palestinians do not take responsibility for their actions expect more of the same. If they aren't worried about their kids why should the Isreali's be.

I do not expect Isreal to sit idly by and suffer attrocity after attrocity from the Palestinians and not retaliate. Collaterial damage is inevitable. When the Palestinians have had enough maybe they will stop their acts of terrorism.

Until then, invest in mortuary stocks.

 

[Jay R]

I just watched a report from a CNN correspondent that claimed the tunnel was 800 metres long and 9 metres wide, and extended to around 100 metres past the border so that the attack could be launched from behind the Israeli border positions with the element of suprise. If that is the case then this was clearly being planned well in advance of the deaths of the Palestinian family at the beach. The Iaraeli army is presently amassing personelle and hardware on the border in preparation for possible strikes into the Palestinian territory.

 

[Kelzie]

The only problem I see with this is Israel is doing the exact same thing they did with Arafat. They're blaming Abbas for the actions of Hamas. Instead of undermining Abbas' authority, they should be working with him to bring down Hamas.

Needless to say, I don't think any prisoner exchange should occur. I could certainly see a decent size operation as effective, though it's a shame it had to come to this.

 

[Deegan]

If it's war they seek, it is war they will have, I just hope for a reasonable voice to arise from the other side of that fence, and very soon. These terrorists don't care about their people, they actually seem to revel in the idea of innocents being caught in the crossfire they create. It's a shame that so many more will have to die in order to find these few, but Israel must protect herself, and I believe she will.

 

[Tashah]

The IDF has a golden rule...

'No Israeli soldier or civilian will ever be left behind.'

Trust me when I say that this principle is inviolate.

 

[cherokee]

The IDF has a golden rule...

'No Israeli soldier or civilian will ever be left behind.'

Trust me when I say that this principle is inviolate.

Roll in!

I hope they find Corporal Shalit safe..

 

[Tashah]

The only problem I see with this is Israel is doing the exact same thing they did with Arafat. They're blaming Abbas for the actions of Hamas. Instead of undermining Abbas' authority, they should be working with him to bring down Hamas.

When Gaza was on the brink of civil war a few weeks ago, Abbas and Hamas negotiated to end the internal violence. One of the points agreed upon was that Hamas would honor a cease fire with Israel.

The terrorists that attacked the IDF checkpoint killed two soldiers, wounded four, and kidnapped another. These 'terrorists' were actually soldiers of the military wing of Hamas. Abbas has told Hamas in no uncertain terms that they are now soley responsible for whatever shall transpire. He has asked Hamas to release the captured soldier (Hamas admits it has custody of the soldier).

As an Israeli, I do not blame Addas. I thank him for his courage to speak the ugly truth and his willingness to plead for the release of the IDF soldier. Hamas knowningly and willfully broke its agreement with Abbas. Hamas soldiers knowingly tunneled into Israel proper and engaged in an act of war. Hamas has publicly bragged about the brilliance of this sneak-attack operation.

I hope the true situation is now painfully obvious to everyone... Palestine is governed by a terrorist organization that will betray anyone in order to carry out its lust for death and destruction. Unless the IDF soldier is freed immediately by Hamas, Israel will reclaim its own by whatever means necessary.

 

[Captain America]

I am not gonna say this because Tashah is my buddy. I'm gonna say this because I really feel this way.

In the past, I would get really p'eed off at Isreal. I thought they were expansionist, land grubbing Zionists. I thought they considered all Palestinians (amongst other races of peoples as well) as sub-human. I thought they were the perfect example of national/racial arrogance. I never once considered them (and I still don't) as "God's Chosen People" with some pre-ordained right to snatch up land "promised" to them in a book of myths and fairy tales.

But when they compromised and withdrew from several settlements, extended the proverbial olive branch, and even went head to head with their own people in an effort to make peace, I decided to reconsider and sit back and see who would be the pricks who continued on with the violence.

The pricks turned out to be the Palestinians. So I now stand behind Isreal 100%, for the first time in my life, and I hope Palestine gets the *** kicking that is long overdue.

Just my two-cents.

 

[Kelzie]

When Gaza was on the brink of civil war a few weeks ago, Abbas and Hamas negotiated to end the internal violence. One of the points agreed upon was that Hamas would honor a cease fire with Israel.

The terrorists that attacked the IDF checkpoint killed two soldiers, wounded four, and kidnapped another. These 'terrorists' were actually soldiers of the military wing of Hamas. Abbas has told Hamas in no uncertain terms that they are now soley responsible for whatever shall transpire. He has asked Hamas to release the captured soldier (Hamas admits it has custody of the soldier).

As an Israeli, I do not blame Addas. I thank him for his courage to speak the ugly truth and his willingness to plead for the release of the IDF soldier. Hamas knowningly and willfully broke its agreement with Abbas. Hamas soldiers knowingly tunneled into Israel proper and engaged in an act of war. Hamas has publicly bragged about the brilliance of this sneak-attack operation.

I hope the true situation is now painfully obvious to everyone... Palestine is governed by a terrorist organization that will betray anyone in order to carry out its lust for death and destruction. Unless the IDF soldier is freed immediately by Hamas, Israel will reclaim its own by whatever means necessary.

I agree and I think Hamas should be routed by whatever means necessary. They've had ample opportunity to renounce their extremist stance. However, I do not think things like this will help the situation:

Olmert held both the governing Hamas movement and President Mahmoud Abbas responsible for the assault, appearing to dash any chance of talks with the moderate leader in the near future.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060626...sybSyWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

 

[Tashah]

agree and I think Hamas should be routed by whatever means necessary. They've had ample opportunity to renounce their extremist stance. However, I do not think things like this will help the situation:

Quote:
Olmert held both the governing Hamas movement and President Mahmoud Abbas responsible for the assault, appearing to dash any chance of talks with the moderate leader in the near future.

You're taking that strictly at face value. Recall of the recent Palestinian dynamics in Gaza. Look deeper Kelz.

 

[Kelzie]

You're taking that strictly at face value. Recall of the recent Palestinian dynamics in Gaza. Look deeper Kelz.

Ah, man. That's all the hint you're going to give me? :lol:

 

[Joby]

You all want war?

Bring it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Syria

Not that Arabs would win, just that Israel would lose

 

[Kelzie]

You all want war?

Bring it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Syria

Not that Arabs would win, just that Israel would lose

:rofl Right. As if America and Europe will just stand by while Israel is fighting. Besides, Israel could still kick Syria's ***.

 

[Joby]

No argument. Syria may not even join in, but if they did and were being beaten I imagine they wouldn't hesitate to use VX and Sarin on Tel Aviv and maybe west Jerusalem.

While the US and Europe may join in, they didn't in 67 or 73, the situation would get very ugly. Iraq would leave us, Egypt would fight Israel and go to war with us for supporting them, Iran would get involvd, Kuwait would turn on us, Saudi Arabia would probably launch an embargo, Turkey would cut ties with us, Pakistan would stop hunting anti-American terrorists, even Qatar wouldn't let us station anyone there. That's how I see it unfolding.

Plus, the possible far reaching effects with China could be bad. Also, hypotheticaly speaking, who knows how Israel might lash back out, which could be bad because public relations isn't something Israeli generals, unlike those in the US, are tied to.

 

[Kelzie]

No argument. Syria may not even join in, but if they did and were being beaten I imagine they wouldn't hesitate to use VX and Sarin on Tel Aviv and maybe west Jerusalem.

While the US and Europe may join in, they didn't in 67 or 73, the situation would get very ugly. Iraq would leave us, Egypt would fight Israel and go to war with us for supporting them, Iran would get involvd, Kuwait would turn on us, Saudi Arabia would probably launch an embargo, Turkey would cut ties with us, Pakistan would stop hunting anti-American terrorists, even Qatar wouldn't let us station anyone there. That's how I see it unfolding.

Plus, the possible far reaching effects with China could be bad. Also, hypotheticaly speaking, who knows how Israel might lash back out, which could be bad because public relations isn't something Israeli generals, unlike those in the US, are tied to.

Yeah and I'm sure if Syria gassed Tel Aviv, Israel would have to think really hard over whether to use their nukes. Or not. Israel would win. It might not be pretty, but that's the way it is.

 

[Deegan]

No argument. Syria may not even join in, but if they did and were being beaten I imagine they wouldn't hesitate to use VX and Sarin on Tel Aviv and maybe west Jerusalem.

While the US and Europe may join in, they didn't in 67 or 73, the situation would get very ugly. Iraq would leave us, Egypt would fight Israel and go to war with us for supporting them, Iran would get involvd, Kuwait would turn on us, Saudi Arabia would probably launch an embargo, Turkey would cut ties with us, Pakistan would stop hunting anti-American terrorists, even Qatar wouldn't let us station anyone there. That's how I see it unfolding.

Plus, the possible far reaching effects with China could be bad. Also, hypotheticaly speaking, who knows how Israel might lash back out, which could be bad because public relations isn't something Israeli generals, unlike those in the US, are tied to.

I wonder how much of that they got from Saddam, just another good reason for him being gone, thanks for that.:shock:

 

[Joby]

I wonder how much of that they got from Saddam, just another good reason for him being gone, thanks for that.:shock:

Well, they were both Baathists, they share a border, they both developed SCUDs about the same time...

I believe the Syrians may have gotten some of their WMDs from Saddam, but I've also read Israeli News Articles discussing Syrias ability to make their own. Also, they're now able to hit any point in Israel with them with a SCUD, thanks to increased technology from North Korea and Iran.

Hmmmmmmm, I wonder what they'll experiment with next?:roll:

 

[Joby]

Yeah and I'm sure if Syria gassed Tel Aviv, Israel would have to think really hard over whether to use their nukes. Or not. Israel would win. It might not be pretty, but that's the way it is.

But who knows how the world would react if Israel did that(and they would).

Remember, in the worlds eyes this isn't like South Korea or West Germany defending themselves. It's Israel, the one country most other countries will put aside their differences to fight. Sunni, Shia, Kurd, Communist, Capitalist, Rich or Poor, everyone in that region hates Israel.

I think Israel could probably beat the other countries in the region, with the help of our technology, but I wouldn't really call it "winning"

If Israel were to attack, they should wait until the other countries were about to as well, like 1967. Then they could launch a strike and hopefully use their conventional technology to win, without uniting the world.

 

[Jay R]

No argument. Syria may not even join in, but if they did and were being beaten I imagine they wouldn't hesitate to use VX and Sarin on Tel Aviv and maybe west Jerusalem.

The Arab world has had it's own *** handed to it by Israel so many times over the years that they wouldn't bother stepping in, and using WMD'S would just provoke the Israelis into letting rip with their big guns, no Arab state would be dumb enough to do so. Instead, I think they would simply turn a blind eye to the inevitable tide of volunteer fighters from their nations who would undoubtedly be flocking to fight in Israel.

 

[cherokee]

You all want war?

Bring it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Syria

Not that Arabs would win, just that Israel would lose

Oh look at you...

"Bring it "...:roll:
but you guys are so peaceful…:roll:

Syria won’t lift a damn finger. They know just what would happen to them.
No Arab country will.

*Breaking news*
Hamas has just admitted Israel has the right to exist!
I wonder if the Israeli army massing at its boarder had anything to do with this?

 

[Gardener]

Personally, I recall an incident where two Israeli soldiers were butchered by Palestinians a few years ago. There was an unforgettable and powerful image of one of the killers leaning out of a window of the house where the killing occurred, his hands drenched in blood, to the adulation of a mob. It was one of those images that burn themselves indelibly into your memory and it still springs to my mind to this day when Palestinian violence flares up. This incident reminded me of it. I think it was the first time that I saw something that was 'evil' for want of a better word, the relish of the bloodshed was unsettling and lives with me to this day.

And when Jewish children are slaughtered, there is a similar orgy of blood lust.

and more importantly, world opinion tips inexorably towards the murderous. If there is any relationship between the barbarity of those who are now called Palestinians and world opinion, it is that support increases in direct relationshp to their murderousness. Heck, if the solidier is tortured for days before being beheaded and his body is dragged through the streets much to the adoration of the mobs who celebrate his death and mutilate his body, I would expect world opinion to increase rather than decrease because this has been the pattern over the years -- a constantly increaing sympathy for the murderous.

We are talking about opinion here. We are talking about belief systems and world views and the ability to influence others, and the framing of the issue and propaganda and sheer numbers -- numbers of people who share a belief and who outnumber those who share different beliefs. There are more arabs in the world than there are Jews. There are more muslims in the world than there are Jews. There are more antisemites in the world than there are Jews, and people's attitudes and especially their sympathies are created more by the exposure to these attitudes than they are any internal moral barometer. People do not engage in moral reasoning. They simply conform to the attitudes of others, and with so few Jewish people in the world compared to those who hate them, it takes a rather courageous person to stand up and say "hey, wait a minute here...." . Especially in Europe, where the increase in antisemitism has been feuled by the immigration of those with traditional hatred of Jews, a prejudice that is uniting with some historical European attitudes, the dominant paradigm is one of relentless bias against the Jewish state. Opinions are not based upon what people are doing, but who they are, and no matter how barbaric the Palestinians become and no matter how measured the response might be from Israel, world opinion will continue running in the direction it is running.

People are not rational. They are conformist by nature and when confronted by propaganda that reverses the nature of cause and effect, which divorces actions from context, and which inverses the relationship between those who are persecuted and those who are indulging in the persecution, few can see through the sophistry. The case of the Israeli solder will not affect world opinion. People will still moan about the house demolitions of these "innocent" people whose houses are actually covers for entrances to tunnels such as the one used here. They will still claim Israel is the aggressor as thousands of rockets are launched from Gaza into Israel. They will still offer their tripe about the "last resort of an oppressed people" when these "oppressed" people are part of a larger group with genocidal intent -- a group with overwhelming numerical superiority and a history of persecuting those who are unlike them.

I don't know what mothers say to their kids in Europe, but almost every kid in the U.S. has heard the line "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?"
Seems to me that hatred of Israel is self-generating in much this same way as the kids who want to do what all their fellow kids are doing.

Everybody hates Israel. Nobody questions why.

 

[Joby]

The Arab world has had it's own *** handed to it by Israel so many times over the years that they wouldn't bother stepping in, and using WMD'S would just provoke the Israelis into letting rip with their big guns, no Arab state would be dumb enough to do so. Instead, I think they would simply turn a blind eye to the inevitable tide of volunteer fighters from their nations who would undoubtedly be flocking to fight in Israel.

Loom up 1973 war.

As I've said before, Bashar al-Assad is not the man his father was, but I still believe he may start a conflict if and when he believed he could win.