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Israeli Rules Out Palestinian State by 2012

donsutherland1

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From today's edition of The New York Times:

In remarks that could further strain peace efforts, Israel’s foreign minister said on Tuesday there was no chance a Palestinian state would be established in the next two years.

“I’m an optimistic person, but there is absolutely no chance of reaching a Palestinian state by 2012,” the foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, said. “One can dream and imagine, but we are far from reaching understandings and an agreement.”
Israeli Rules Out Palestinian State by 2012 - NYTimes.com

Clearly, such remarks will be viewed very negatively. Nonetheless, FM Lieberan's assessment is a realistic one. To date, even as the West Bank construction freeze nears an end, the Palestinian leadership refuses to engage in direct negotiations with Israel. At this time, there is also very little evidence of the Palestinians doing little more than making additional demands of Israel e.g., no promises of Palestinian concessions in exchange for Israeli ones. Given the differences between the parties, a final settlement is quite unlikely by 2012. Perhaps a provisional state under an interim agreement might be feasible, but the Palestinians also have previously rejected ideas of such an intermediate stage on several occasions.
 

mbig

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Lieberman is propbably correct especially in light of the fact 'palestine' has Two governments.
However, that wouldn't prevent negotiations between Abbas and Netanyahu who could possibly reach an agreement and then present it to the Gazans for approval as well.
Of course, Hamas, unlike Fatah will not recognize Israel (truce only for exact '67 borders) and may prevent a pan-Palestinian referendum on any agreement that does recognize it from even being voted on.
Though that might be their end both in the area and Internationally if they did.

I support Fayyed in this matter and his aspirations for a state, but I don't think this constructive individual has the clout to pressure Hamas. Even Abbas would be hard-pressed. Though the carrot of a peaceful/prosperous state may be so enticing to Gazans after the last 5 years of crap that they hopefully can overthrow/outvote Hamas.
And of course, all the above assumes that Netanyahu will negotiate in good faith and offer something akin to what Ohlmert or even Barak did. Which is also presumptious.
Lieberman has a point.
I remain pessimistic because of the leadership of both sides.
Netanyahu on one side and Hamas on half the other is about as bad it gets.
tho Arafat could never make a deal either.
 
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justabubba

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what prevents Palestine from declaring its independence as a soverign state
any reason that cannot happen by 2012?
i would not bet against it
 

mbig

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what prevents Palestine from declaring its independence as a soverign state
any reason that cannot happen by 2012?
i would not bet against it
Who will be it's leader?
What will be it's borders?
Do they imagine they will declare it on the 1967 borders and evict ¼ million Israelis?
 
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justabubba

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Who will be it's leader?
whoever acquires the fortitude and political savvy to make it happen
What will be it's borders?
i would imagine they will have to begin with the land they now "control" until they can acquire by force or negotiation what israel has previously taken
 

Apocalypse

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The Palestinians act in negotiations as if they're the allied powers during world war II, they practically demand Israel to unconditionally surrender to all of their demands or else there will be no peace.
This behavior cannot be allowed to continue, but I'm afraid that nothing will be done against it as long as the world keeps silent about the Palestinian ridiculous boycott of the peace talks.
 

Degreez

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Of course there won't be a Palestinian state by 2012. Israel is no where near finished land grabbibg occupied territory.
 

washunut

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The Palestinians act in negotiations as if they're the allied powers during world war II, they practically demand Israel to unconditionally surrender to all of their demands or else there will be no peace.
This behavior cannot be allowed to continue, but I'm afraid that nothing will be done against it as long as the world keeps silent about the Palestinian ridiculous boycott of the peace talks.
The problem is less with the silence of the world than the actions of the White House. As long as the President shows little interest in doing anything but making sure that Israel is shown in the worst possible light the only pressure is on Israel. The PA are shrewd enough negotitors to know this and will continue to up the ante making sure that they demand things Israel can't/ won't deliver.

The PA knows that they can't set up their own nation. Heck if they allowed elections in the West Bank they might lose like they did in Gaza.

If I were a Palestianian negotiator I would hold off until the US elections in 2012. Hoping that Obama gets re-elected. As a lame duck president he would in my view push Israel into accepting all PA demands.
 

ido_

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what prevents Palestine from declaring its independence as a soverign state
any reason that cannot happen by 2012?
i would not bet against it
Nothing does, but it will actually be a major win for the settlers and the Israeli right wing, if Palestinians declear indepandance, I believe most Israelies will look at it as an end to their demands meaning no right of return or any sort of conpensation for refugies, the borders in which the Palestinian state will be decleared will be final borders and no negotiation will go on about the rest of the west bank settled by Israeli settlers. It will also remove all responsibilities from Israel throwards the Palestinians in this new state which are dependent on Israel in infrastructure and have impact on the unemployment in the west bank.

In general I believe the ball is currently in the PA's court and its been there ever since Bibi decleared he is ready to enter negotiations with no preconditions. In the current situation the Palestinians just play to his hands, the best thing that Bibi can dream of is Palestinians who boycott negotiations, he can always say "hey I want to talk but theres no one to talk to" to the Israeli left wing and by not having to make any concessions in negotiations he is still on the safe side with the Israeli right wing.
 

justabubba

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Nothing does, but it will actually be a major win for the settlers and the Israeli right wing, if Palestinians declear indepandance, I believe most Israelies will look at it as an end to their demands meaning no right of return or any sort of conpensation for refugies, the borders in which the Palestinian state will be decleared will be final borders and no negotiation will go on about the rest of the west bank settled by Israeli settlers. It will also remove all responsibilities from Israel throwards the Palestinians in this new state which are dependent on Israel in infrastructure and have impact on the unemployment in the west bank.

In general I believe the ball is currently in the PA's court and its been there ever since Bibi decleared he is ready to enter negotiations with no preconditions. In the current situation the Palestinians just play to his hands, the best thing that Bibi can dream of is Palestinians who boycott negotiations, he can always say "hey I want to talk but theres no one to talk to" to the Israeli left wing and by not having to make any concessions in negotiations he is still on the safe side with the Israeli right wing.
with NO preconditions you insist

only so long as he is able to choose the party with whom he would sit at a negotiation table
 

ido_

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with NO preconditions you insist

only so long as he is able to choose the party with whom he would sit at a negotiation table
Did I miss anything? Did the Palestinians offered to start talking and Bibi refused because of the Palestinian's party?
 

kaya'08

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Lets start by ending the blockade and returning Golan heights, and then we can discuss the issue of the Palestinian side not being willing enough to negotiate peace.
 

mbig

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Lets start by ending the blockade and returning Golan heights, and then we can discuss the issue of the Palestinian side not being willing enough to negotiate peace.
The Golan Heights was formerly Syria, not 'palestine'.. and only Unoccupied Hamas-run Gaza is Blockaded.
If you're waiting for the strategically Invaluable Golan HEIGHTS to be returned..
Don't hold your breath.
 
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Demon of Light

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I don't see an independent Palestinian state working until they figure out how to resolve the biggest issue of all, the fact the current Palestinian territories do not constitute a contiguous geographic area or share a common sea, indeed the West Bank is land-locked.
 

justabubba

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Did I miss anything? Did the Palestinians offered to start talking and Bibi refused because of the Palestinian's party?
yes. you did
you insisted the israelis have set NO preconditions
'that is absolutely false
the israelis refuse to negotiate with hamas, the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people of gaza
 

mbig

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yes. you did
you insisted the israelis have set NO preconditions
'that is absolutely false
the israelis refuse to negotiate with hamas, the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people of gaza
Except they negotiate with them all the time.
And Israel should only have to negotiate with a unified palestinian govt.. which doesn't exist.
That should be the only precondition.
What's the point of negotiating with someone who can't speak for his entire people.
Unless as I said previous .. to come to agreement with Abbas (more likely) and then hope it's agreed to by Hamas.
 
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Demon of Light

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What's the point of negotiating with someone who can't speak for his entire people. Excep as I said previous .. to come to agreement with Abbas (more likely) and then hope it's agreed to by Hamas.
Or to set in stone the de-facto three state situation, the only reasonable alternative to a bi-national state.
 

mbig

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Or to set in stone the de-facto three state situation, the only reasonable alternative to a bi-national state.
Yes, but 'Palestinians' would have to decide on 3 states BEFORE negotiating with Israel in that case as well.
Precisely and Still.. MY point.
 
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Gardener

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kaya'08

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The Golan Heights was formerly Syria, not 'palestine'.. and only Unoccupied Hamas-run Gaza is Blockaded.
Im aware of that, thank you. But the return of this land might just indicate that Israel is serious about peace and would rather negotiate with Arabs then swallow up there land.

And im also aware of what is blockaded. What does that change?

If you're waiting for the strategically Invaluable Golan HEIGHTS to be returned..
Don't hold your breath.
I dont intend to.
Times like this i wonder if there is much difference between Hamas and the IDF.
 

washunut

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Lets start by ending the blockade and returning Golan heights, and then we can discuss the issue of the Palestinian side not being willing enough to negotiate peace.
What does the Golan heights have to do with any negotiation with Palestinians???
 

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What does the Golan heights have to do with any negotiation with Palestinians???
Well, you have to admit that their rockets would certainly travel much farther from there.........
 

kaya'08

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What does the Golan heights have to do with any negotiation with Palestinians???
It does have an indirect impact. If Palestinians see that Israel is interested in doing nothing other than swallow up Arab land, why the hell should they bother participating in direct peace talks? If Israel can make concessions on occupied territory in regards to Golan Heights, it will show Hamas/Abbas that Israel is willing to do the same for them (or at least, there is some balls in Israel to return land). Im not talking about E/Jerusalem, but settlements, etc.
 

justabubba

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and such lovely terrorists, they are!
that certainly is the position israel and a few other nations, including the USA
but the point i was making stands. those who insist israel imposes no demands as a precondition of participating in formal peace negotiations are wrong
that israel refuses to sit at the table with hamas is evidence of such a lie
israel appears to want to negotiate only with the party of israel's own choosing
how convenient
 

washunut

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Well, you have to admit that their rockets would certainly travel much farther from there.........
Good point I did not think of that. Let's have Obama add that to his wish list when Bibi shows up!
 
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