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Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

Hoplite

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This statement is in direct contradiction to an earlier statement where the Israelis claimed to have found weapons on board the ships.



This revelation means that Israeli forces attacked and killed almost 20 people in international waters who were unarmed.
 

BmanMcfly

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My bottom dollar says that Israel is trying to instigate a war.

If Israel REALLY was interested in protecting itself, they could have let them in, determined if there was weapons as silently as possible and then dropping a missile when these weapons reached their destination... Then they could have positioned themselves defensively and would have put the 'relief' efforts as 'terrorist' attackers to their nation.

So, now because of theire over-reactive knee-jerk response there's going to be an escalation... and these escalations are justifiable because the convoys were the ones that were attacked in this situation.

Edit : Almost forgot... assuming there was no weapons, just aid on these convoys, a more rational response would have prevented Israel getting this political black eye.
 
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Hoplite

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First, none of these photos are sourced and could have come from anywhere.

Second, knives and slingshots? Really? Israel has half its military paid for by the US and their concern is technology that pre-dates civilization? The knives in and of themselves are meaningless as a knife is a common tool, used every day for non-violent purposes.

The "explosive device" doesn't look very convincing either. What's it made of? Why cant we see into the device?

A handful of un-sourced photographs of what the IDF classifies as "weapons" do not make a convincing case.
 

NolaMan

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My bottom dollar says that Israel is trying to instigate a war.
With who? Turkey? Why would they want to do that?

If Israel REALLY was interested in protecting itself, they could have let them in, determined if there was weapons as silently as possible and then dropping a missile when these weapons reached their destination... Then they could have positioned themselves defensively and would have put the 'relief' efforts as 'terrorist' attackers to their nation.
WHAT!? Seriously? Let weapons in, and then hope you can track them down before they get used... that is the plan? So, if the US determined that someone was trying to sneak a nuclear warhead into the country, we ought to just let it come, and then try to track it down, because that would "look" better???

So, now because of theire over-reactive knee-jerk response there's going to be an escalation... and these escalations are justifiable because the convoys were the ones that were attacked in this situation.

Edit : Almost forgot... assuming there was no weapons, just aid on these convoys, a more rational response would have prevented Israel getting this political black eye.
The most rational thing that could have been done was not try to run a military blockade...
 
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RightinNYC

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First, none of these photos are sourced and could have come from anywhere.

Second, knives and slingshots? Really? Israel has half its military paid for by the US and their concern is technology that pre-dates civilization? The knives in and of themselves are meaningless as a knife is a common tool, used every day for non-violent purposes.

The "explosive device" doesn't look very convincing either. What's it made of? Why cant we see into the device?

A handful of un-sourced photographs of what the IDF classifies as "weapons" do not make a convincing case.
Actual pictures of items found on the ship: Unreliable and proof of nothing.
Unsourced claims by Al-Jazeera: Proof that there were no weapons.

Got it.
 
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BmanMcfly

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With who? Turkey? Why would they want to do that?
The best way to solve economic crisis is through major war...

WHAT!? Seriously? Let weapons in, and then hope you can track them down before they get used... that is the plan? So, if the US determined that someone was trying to sneak a nuclear warhead into the country, we ought to just let it come, and then try to track it down, because that would "look" better???
Sorry, ya, looking at the answer, it wasn't quite how I intended... I was thinking more along the lines of searching the ship when they got there, determine what type of weapons if any were on the ship without necessarily alerting the crew that weapons were found (if we're talking a nuclear weapon found or some WMD then it would have to be dealt with instantly)... and to track the convoys movements and then attack the destination.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but israel does in fact have drone aircraft, and other sorts of techniques that could track the movement and attack the convoy precisely on cue. This would ALSO help in their conflict with the palestinians by targeting those that are recipients of these weapons (assuming that we're talking guns and grenades rather then missiles and nukes)

Meanwhile, this would have prevented an international incident because they would be acting defensively all in all.

The most rational thing that could have been done was not try to run a military blockade...
Well, you could argue that a millitary blockade is an act of war on it's face... but yes I agree with you here.
 

NolaMan

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The best way to solve economic crisis is through major war...
Morgan Stanley estimates 3.7% growth in the Israeli economy in 2010. That is not what I would point to as a "major economic crisis" exactly. In fact, I would argue that Israel has fared far better in the recent global downturn than most other states.

Sorry, ya, looking at the answer, it wasn't quite how I intended... I was thinking more along the lines of searching the ship when they got there, determine what type of weapons if any were on the ship without necessarily alerting the crew that weapons were found (if we're talking a nuclear weapon found or some WMD then it would have to be dealt with instantly)... and to track the convoys movements and then attack the destination.
They tried to do that, and the flotilla refused to comply. Also, it would seem to be a vast waste of resources to monitor things of that nature after they are all being dispursed (assuming you could monitor them all) when you could just stop the boat all together from arriving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but israel does in fact have drone aircraft, and other sorts of techniques that could track the movement and attack the convoy precisely on cue. This would ALSO help in their conflict with the palestinians by targeting those that are recipients of these weapons (assuming that we're talking guns and grenades rather then missiles and nukes)
Drones cannot sit over an area forever, they could be used to track convoys etc, but in something like a small arms shipment, that could be dispursed and moved far to quickly and covertly for a drone to really be all that effective in monitoring.

Meanwhile, this would have prevented an international incident because they would be acting defensively all in all.
I tend to doubt it. SOP for groups acting with Gaza seems to be to hide among civilians so that any strike (even a strike in Gaza like you describe) can be spun as Israel being the "aggressor" and killing "innocent" women and children. I guess it is like terrorism 101, but it has been pretty effective at doing that.


Well, you could argue that a millitary blockade is an act of war on it's face... but yes I agree with you here.
Well, if anything, wouldn't the blockade be an "act of war" against Gaza, and not Turkey (which seems to be the most upset about what has taken place)? I don't know in what country these ships were flagged, but I don't think that a blockade being an "act of war" gives someone the automatic right to run it.
 

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Holy crap! Is that a kitchen knife and a screw driver? Oh my gosh I think I seen a stick in the photo. Those could put an eye out :shock:
 

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Holy crap! Is that a kitchen knife and a screw driver? Oh my gosh I think I seen a stick in the photo. Those could put an eye out :shock:
If you got stabbed in the throat with a six inch knife, do you think you'd give a **** whether it was a kitchen knife or a switchblade?
 

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If you got stabbed in the throat with a six inch knife, do you think you'd give a **** whether it was a kitchen knife or a switchblade?
I think you are missing my point. If these were weapons to be given to Hamaz, it would not be kitchen knives and screw drivers. They would be AK-47s and desert eagles... and Boxes of ammo for that matter. If anything, these weapons were being used because the activists knew they would be defending themselves in international waters. I'm actually surprised they didn't have at least one pistol on board.
 

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I think you are missing my point. If these were weapons to be given to Hamaz, it would not be kitchen knives and screw drivers. They would be AK-47s and desert eagles... and Boxes of ammo for that matter. If anything, these weapons were being used because the activists knew they would be defending themselves in international waters. I'm actually surprised they didn't have at least one pistol on board.
No one has said that they were trying to smuggle these things to Gaza. They brought them for the purpose of arming themselves in case of a conflict with Israeli soldiers, while also allowing them to pretend that they were just mere kitchen knives and metal poles.
 

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No one has said that they were trying to smuggle these things to Gaza. They brought them for the purpose of arming themselves in case of a conflict with Israeli soldiers, while also allowing them to pretend that they were just mere kitchen knives and metal poles.
Yes and we know how well using knives and clubs are against SMG's and handguns dont we. By god they were armed to the teeth werent they, able to defend themselves versus the entire Israeli navy with just knives and clubs, and by golly win
 

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No one has said that they were trying to smuggle these things to Gaza. They brought them for the purpose of arming themselves in case of a conflict with Israeli soldiers, while also allowing them to pretend that they were just mere kitchen knives and metal poles.
Well yea, was it not obvious they would have a conflict? I for one knew they were going to be stopped by the Navy before they even got close enough to Gaza.
 

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Yes and we know how well using knives and clubs are against SMG's and handguns dont we. By god they were armed to the teeth werent they, able to defend themselves versus the entire Israeli navy with just knives and clubs, and by golly win
Not sure what you think you're responding to, as this is an entirely irrelevant point.

PS. You know that there were no SMGs involved, right?
 

RightinNYC

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Well yea, was it not obvious they would have a conflict? I for one knew they were going to be stopped by the Navy before they even got close enough to Gaza.
There are many here who would disagree with you, arguing that these people were merely engaging in peaceful civil disobedience until they were forced into action by the Israelis and just so happened to have these things handy in order to fight back.
 

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There are many here who would disagree with you, arguing that these people were merely engaging in peaceful civil disobedience until they were forced into action by the Israelis and just so happened to have these things handy in order to fight back.
It was the Israeli navy that violently boarded the ship, not the other way around.

I am quite sure if the aid floatilla tried to board and Israeli navy vessel they would have been shot on sight, rather then just beaten with some clubs.

No one would have died if Israel did not board the ship in an early morning raid
 

RightinNYC

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It was the Israeli navy that violently boarded the ship, not the other way around.

I am quite sure if the aid floatilla tried to board and Israeli navy vessel they would have been shot on sight, rather then just beaten with some clubs.

No one would have died if Israel did not board the ship in an early morning raid
And no one would have died if these idiots had not tried to run the blockade and then decided to attack the soldiers who were stopping the boat. The other five boats had no casualties.
 

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No one has said that they were trying to smuggle these things to Gaza. They brought them for the purpose of arming themselves in case of a conflict with Israeli soldiers, while also allowing them to pretend that they were just mere kitchen knives and metal poles.
Because they ARE ****ing kitchen knives and metal pipes! I'm sorry but that is the lamest explanation I have ever heard. Anyone familiar with Israel at all knows you do NOT **** with the IDF, these are not people known for their easy-going nature and sense of humor. Metal pipes and kitchen knives are NOT going to do anything wielded by civilians against trained IDF commandos and any fool knows that.

I'm sorry but I've lost some serious respect for you if you are genuinely pushing this "ambush" crap.

If you got stabbed in the throat with a six inch knife, do you think you'd give a **** whether it was a kitchen knife or a switchblade?
It actually does make a difference. Kitchen knives are not designed for stabbing someone and break easily when they are used to do so. The metal of kitchen knives is extremely hard so that it retains an edge longer but that also makes it brittle, try bending a kitchen knife someday and you'll see what I mean. A $6 pocket knife is a better tool for stabbing someone than a kitchen knife.
 

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It was the Israeli navy that violently boarded the ship, not the other way around.

I am quite sure if the aid floatilla tried to board and Israeli navy vessel they would have been shot on sight, rather then just beaten with some clubs.

No one would have died if Israel did not board the ship in an early morning raid
and if this one ship had emulated every other ship in the convoy, no one would have died.
 

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Because they ARE ****ing kitchen knives and metal pipes! I'm sorry but that is the lamest explanation I have ever heard.
I cannot believe that you think this was a spontaneous accident as opposed to a planned incident. Have you seen any of the videos? Have you heard any of the accounts of how they swarmed the soldiers as soon as they landed? Have you seen the piles of pipes that they used to fight with, or the slingshots or rocks?

Anyone familiar with Israel at all knows you do NOT **** with the IDF, these are not people known for their easy-going nature and sense of humor.
And yet that's exactly what they did.

Metal pipes and kitchen knives are NOT going to do anything wielded by civilians against trained IDF commandos and any fool knows that.
And yet several of the Israeli troops were injured or thrown off the side of the boat.

I'm sorry but I've lost some serious respect for you if you are genuinely pushing this "ambush" crap.
Then I don't know what to tell you, because it's manifestly obvious that this was not at all unexpected on the part of the activists. They had a contingency plan in place for the event that the Israelis tried to board the boat, and they attempted to carry it out.

It actually does make a difference. Kitchen knives are not designed for stabbing someone and break easily when they are used to do so. The metal of kitchen knives is extremely hard so that it retains an edge longer but that also makes it brittle, try bending a kitchen knife someday and you'll see what I mean. A $6 pocket knife is a better tool for stabbing someone than a kitchen knife.
Regardless of whether it's marginally more brittle it would still do some serious damage, as would a lead pipe. Nor were they all kitchen knives - just take a look at this guy:



You can see that same knife in the pile of other knives that was collected in the above picture.

If you want to tell yourself that this was just an accident, that's fine. That's exactly why they brought these weapons instead of more obvious ones, so that they could tell people this was an accident.
 

Hoplite

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I cannot believe that you think this was a spontaneous accident as opposed to a planned incident.
I do think it was planned, from the Israeli side! They intentionally shot at people to deter others from coming.

Have you seen any of the videos?
YES! I posted it in the OP!

Have you heard any of the accounts of how they swarmed the soldiers as soon as they landed? Have you seen the piles of pipes that they used to fight with, or the slingshots or rocks?
Actually I've seen the video where they put up the white flag immediately but were shot anyways, I posted it in the OP. Again, even if the commandos were faced with slingshots and pipes, they're IDF commandos! They dont need to open fire on people who have far less training than them and are basically unarmed.

And yet several of the Israeli troops were injured or thrown off the side of the boat.
So the IDF says. Funnily enough, the IDF hasnt released any video or information of it happening even though they made plenty sure to document everything else.

Then I don't know what to tell you, because it's manifestly obvious that this was not at all unexpected on the part of the activists. They had a contingency plan in place for the event that the Israelis tried to board the boat, and they attempted to carry it out.
Bull****. Metal pipes and kitchen knives are not a contingency plan against the IDF and any idiot would know that.

Regardless of whether it's marginally more brittle it would still do some serious damage, as would a lead pipe. Nor were they all kitchen knives - just take a look at this guy:

You can see that same knife in the pile of other knives that was collected in the above picture.
That style of knife is not rare in that part of the world. It's called a Jambiya and is carried by just about anyone and their dog in that region of the world.

If you want to tell yourself that this was just an accident, that's fine. That's exactly why they brought these weapons instead of more obvious ones, so that they could tell people this was an accident.
It wasnt a ****ing accident, Israel shot down people who could have been easily subdued or otherwise surrendered to ensure that they stopped coming.


Keep in mind, this attack took place in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. The people on-board the ship have, in international waters, every right to defend themselves regardless of who the aggressor is. Be it the IDF, Somali pirates, the US Navy, SCS pirates, whoever. Technically, assaulting a ship bearing the Turkish flag in international waters is assaulting Turkish soil and can be considered an act of war.
 
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RightinNYC

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I do think it was planned, from the Israeli side! They intentionally shot at people to deter others from coming.
Ah, yes, that's why they shot people on all of the boats, and why they were under strict orders not to use anything more dangerous than a painball unless they were fired upon.

YES! I posted it in the OP!
:rofl I'm not talking about Al-Jazeera's unnamed sources, I'm talking about the actual video of the actual events where you can see the activists attacking the IDF soldiers.

YouTube - israeli soldiers attacked by mob

YouTube - Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers

Actually I've seen the video where they put up the white flag immediately but were shot anyways, I posted it in the OP. Again, even if the commandos were faced with slingshots and pipes, they're IDF commandos! They dont need to open fire on people who have far less training than them and are basically unarmed.
And again, they didn't fire live ammunition until they reported being fired on first. You can hear the conversations on the videos.

So the IDF says. Funnily enough, the IDF hasnt released any video or information of it happening even though they made plenty sure to document everything else.
Try watching the videos before you make demonstrably false claims like this. There are several videos that clearly show this. They've uploaded a dozen videos in the past day:

YouTube - idfnadesk's Channel

Bull****. Metal pipes and kitchen knives are not a contingency plan against the IDF and any idiot would know that.
Oh, well so long as you say so.

That style of knife is not rare in that part of the world. It's called a Jambiya and is carried by just about anyone and their dog in that region of the world.
And yet it's not a kitchen knife.

It wasnt a ****ing accident, Israel shot down people who could have been easily subdued or otherwise surrendered to ensure that they stopped coming.
lol

Yes, Israel shot people who could have easily surrendered. Why? Because they didn't surrender. The people surrendered on the other 5 boats and none of them were shot. Mysterious, that.


Keep in mind, this attack took place in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. The people on-board the ship have, in international waters, every right to defend themselves regardless of who the aggressor is. Be it the IDF, Somali pirates, the US Navy, SCS pirates, whoever. Technically, assaulting a ship bearing the Turkish flag in international waters is assaulting Turkish soil and can be considered an act of war.
This is simply incorrect, for reasons that have been rehashed ad nauseum on the large thread on this topic. If you'd like to try to show me where this is illegal, feel free to take it up there.
 

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My bottom dollar says that Israel is trying to instigate a war.
....WTF? :confused:

Why would Israel look to try to instigate a war, and if they were trying to instigate a war why not just blow up the ship?

If Israel REALLY was interested in protecting itself, they could have let them in, determined if there was weapons as silently as possible and then dropping a missile when these weapons reached their destination
Let them in where? Into Gaza? How was Israel supposed to determine if there was weapons on the ships once they touched down in Gaza?
 

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It was the Israeli navy that violently boarded the ship, not the other way around.
No, they "boarded" the ship. There was no "violently", as from most of the accounts thus far it seems they did not begin to act "violently" until they were attacked.

I am quite sure if the aid floatilla tried to board and Israeli navy vessel they would have been shot on sight, rather then just beaten with some clubs.
I'm quite sure that would be the case since:

1. Some random "aid" workers are in no means a legitimate military or police force that has authority of any kind to inspect for contraband, and while there are disputes between experts and intelligent people on both sides of the issue in regards to the legitimacy of Israel's claimed right to conduct such a search that is still far more than you could say for a random civilian group doing the same thing.

2. Second, your scenario doesn't paint a situation where said Israeli ship is attempting to breach a militaries blockaid with the stated intention of entering into their border.

So your analogy doesn't really work.

No one would have died if Israel did not board the ship in an early morning raid
You're absolutely correct. No one would've died if Israel did not board the ship. However your pathetically biased statement is showing up in the middle, blaming one side, and obviously ignoring the one you're biased towards while lambasting the one you're biased against.

You see, yes, you're technically correct in that statement, however guess what else? No one would have died if:

1. These ships did not actively attempt to bypass a military blockaid and infringe upon Israeli waterways.
2. The people on the ship took Israel's offer to pull into port, allow an inspection of their cargo, and then allow that cargo into Gaza if it was not contraband.
3. The people on the ship did not attack the IDF soldiers, as is what happened on the other 5 ships.

So yes, you're correct, if Israel hadn't got on the ships no one on the ships would've died. However before that happened the people on the ship had two very simple ways to avoid being shot at; don't try and run a military blockaid and take Israel up on their offer if you actually had only legit goods. After the boarding happened the people on the ship AGAIN had a way to avoid getting shot at, by not trying to attack the IDF.
 
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