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Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security

Boo Radley

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Does this matter?

By Sheera Frenkel | McClatchy Newspapers

JERUSALEM — As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza in June 2007, after Hamas won elections and took control of the coastal enclave after winning elections there the previous year, and the government has long said that the aim of the blockade is to stem the flow of weapons to militants in Gaza.

Last week, after Israeli commandos killed nine volunteers on a Turkish-organized Gaza aid flotilla, Israel again said its aim was to stop the flow of terrorist arms into Gaza.

However, in response to a lawsuit by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, the Israeli government explained the blockade as an exercise of the right of economic warfare.

Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn't about security | McClatchy
 

ecofarm

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There's nothing wrong with economic warfare against Hamas, but describing the blockade as such is odd. I guess if Hamas' economy is based on IEDs, suicide belts, rockets and smuggling tunnels... it makes sense to minimalize it. Does Hamas make any money legitimately? Do they have like a business or something? I dunno. Anyway, it wasn't "economic warfare against Palestine", right?
 
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Boo Radley

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There's nothing wrong with economic warfare against Hamas, but describing the blockade as such is odd. I guess, if Hamas' economy is based on IEDs, suicide belts, rockets and smuggling tunnels... it makes sense to minimalize it. It wasn't economic warfare against Palestine, right?
Isn't Hamas the elected government? Democracy.

However, the things you list deosn't appear to be the reason for the blockade. Right?
 

ecofarm

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I edited some, but my point is...

We wage economic warfare against Iran, North Korea, etc... why not Hamas? I mean, hell, they aren't even waging economic warfare against the 'country'... just the current group of tyrants. That seems rather restrained. Besides, exactly how does Hamas make money legitimately?

Do you think instead of economic warfare, we should provide economic assistance to terrorist groups? Think we should we be neutral towards them? Of course you don't - I'm making a point.

And yes, the point of the blockade is to neuter Hamas. I suppose that would include limiting their access to money (as is US policy). It's not like they sell anything on EBay or produce anything, ya know? Palestinians do, but Hamas doesn't. At least, not anything we want. Really, we must isolate and disempower them economically; that's obvious. I mean, what's next? "Hamas is a humanitarian organization"? C'mon.


Perhaps the blockade can be eased without compromising that goal and Israel can take the opportunity to score political points with the timing. With Egypt opening their end of the blockade, Israel is forced to compromise or wait Egypt out (pressing them quite some bit). Egypt probably doesn't want their end of the blockade to become a freeway to Hamas, and they'd like to close it.


And please, spare me the "democratically elected". I saw the mutilated Fatah corpses in the streets.
 
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ecofarm

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Now that you mention it, though... I wonder exactly how much cold, hard cash was kept from falling into Hamas hands by searching the boat. If it was any kind of a legit donation, it would not have been carried in cash by people without passports.
 
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The current Iranian government is the elected government (hell even if they cheated in the last election it was probably not enough to swing control from the current leaders to the opposition). And yet we have no problems using economic warfare against them. Hamas may be the elected leaders of Gaza (though their take over of the place from the Fatah did get pretty damn violent) but they advocate more than just economic warfare against Israel but real shooting warfare. If you're going to advocate that then democracy or not economic warfare is justified.
 

Apocalypse

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The current Iranian government is the elected government (hell even if they cheated in the last election it was probably not enough to swing control from the current leaders to the opposition). And yet we have no problems using economic warfare against them. Hamas may be the elected leaders of Gaza (though their take over of the place from the Fatah did get pretty damn violent) but they advocate more than just economic warfare against Israel but real shooting warfare. If you're going to advocate that then democracy or not economic warfare is justified.
Why refer to the Iranians?
Hitler was ****ing elected.
 

ecofarm

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As I've heard, Hitler (or his party?) won 34% of the vote and formed a coalition for power... then he openly went racist and basically just took over. I'm not sure that constitutes "was elected" any more than Iran's theocratic farse of a democracy.
 
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As I've heard, Hitler (or his party?) won 34% of the vote and formed a coalition for power... then he openly went racist and basically just took over. I'm not sure that constitutes "was elected".
He has received the majority of his country's people votes, became the biggest party in his country and hence the leader.
He has then threw democracy out of the window and Germany became a dictatorship, but he was elected democratically.
 

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He has received the majority of his country's people votes, became the biggest party in his country and hence the leader.
He has then threw democracy out of the window and Germany became a dictatorship, but he was elected democratically.
Hamas has also taken over the Strip after it was elected, by force.
 

ecofarm

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IIRC, Hamas started slaughtering the opposition (Fatah) even before it was "elected".


He has received the majority of his country's people votes, became the biggest party in his country and hence the leader.
He has then threw democracy out of the window and Germany became a dictatorship, but he was elected democratically.
The Nazis only got 44% of the vote after Hiter usurped power via being appointed Chancellor as part of a coalition. Also, Hitler might have got 85% in a vote but that was for approval after he usurped power (not for election) and it was via threats. Counting that 85% is tantamount to counting Saddam's 99%, if we are to believe that people were coerced (and there was no other candidate).

I suppose a majority confirmed his dictatorship, but I don't think a majority ever elected him.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_Hitler_elected_in_Germany


Sorry to quibble, but it gives democracy a bad name to say "Hitler was elected by a majority" without more detail, because technically he wasn't.
 
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ecofarm

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In the case of Hamas,

When one kills the opposition, literally slaughtering them in the streets and instilling fear of death to families in their supporters, and then "wins" the election... that doesn't really count either. Sure, they were democratically elected if 'viciously slaughter those who oppose you' is part of the democratic process. A vote taking place alone does not make a process democratic, there's alot more to it than that. There was voting under Saddam - it wasn't a democracy.

Iran is not a democracy either and Ahmadinejad is not "democratically elected"; self-appointed clerics pick who is allowed to run for the elected offices. When the government's highest echelon self-appoints and then literally chooses the candidates for non-appointed offices... that is not a democracy - it's a theocratic farce of democracy.
 
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In the case of Hamas,

When one kills the opposition, literally slaughtering them in the streets and instilling fear of death to families in their supporters, and then "wins" the election... that doesn't really count either. Sure, they were democratically elected if 'viciously slaughter those who oppose you' is part of the democratic process. A vote taking place alone does not make a process democratic, there's alot more to it than that. There was voting under Saddam - it wasn't a democracy.

Iran is not a democracy either and Ahmadinejad is not "democratically elected"; self-appointed clerics pick who is allowed to run for the elected offices. When the government's highest echelon self-appoints and then literally chooses the candidates for non-appointed offices... that is not a democracy - it's a theocratic farce of democracy.
I tend to disagree with you there.
Hitler has won the elections.
By definition, he was elected democratically, to the full extent of the terms "elected democratically".
After that he has taken control over the entire of Germany by force, and has started his Nazi regime.

Hamas was also elected democratically, to the full extent of the terms "elected democratically".
After that, Hamas has also taken control over the entire of the Gaza Strip by force, and has started its terrorist regime.

Iran on the other hand, has probably rigged the elections, meaning that it has not been elected democratically, since the elections' results were fabricated.
 

ecofarm

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Even if Hamas was democratically elected in 2006, there has been no legit elections since (they killed the opposition) and so they do not stand currently today as "democratically elected".

In Iran, even if the elections are not rigged... the candidates are.

Regarding Hitler, I can only appeal to weak authority:

Hitler became Führer (Supreme Leader) on August 2, 1934: he'd been Chancellor of Germany since January 30, 1933. Very technically, Hitler was never actually elected, but he did take power legally under the laws of the then-Weimar Republic, which he almost immediately abolished. Until Hitler was appointed Chancellor, the Nazis never held an actual majority in the government and the parliament...

When Hindenburg died on August 2, 1934, Hitler's cabinet passed a law transferring the power of the presidency to Hitler as both Chancellor and Führer (Leader). In mid-August a plebiscite was held, and 85% of the people voted to sustain Hitler as supreme leader of the state, people and military. Hitler could no longer be legally challenged. But he hadn't been elected per se: he'd been appointed Chancellor, then usurped the power of the presidency, and was approved in place by that 85% vote, but the fact remains (and the German voters living at the time must bear the responsibility) 85% voted to follow Hitler to their eventual Götterdamerung.
As cited above.
 
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Even if Hamas was democratically elected in 2006, there has been no legit elections since (they killed the opposition) and so they do not stand currently today as "democratically elected".

In Iran, even if the elections are not rigged... the candidates are.

Regarding Hitler, I can only appeal to weak authority:


As cited above.
Understood.
I'll agree with you there then.
 

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The article fails to provide a transcript of the alleged document. However, it provides no evidence that the document rules out security. After all, some of the sanctions agreed against Iran are economic in nature, yet the larger purpose is security-related. Clearly, the Hamas regime poses security threats to Israel and Israel's people. There are various ways--economic, military, and political--to deal with that issue. The article fails to address the context of the overall situation. Now, if the document stated that the maritime blockade had nothing to do with security--and the article does not contain any such information--that would be a different matter. In sum, the article provides little useful information and, because it didn't provide a transcript of the alleged document, could contain material omissions that take things out of context.
 

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Isn't Hamas the elected government? Democracy.

However, the things you list deosn't appear to be the reason for the blockade. Right?
The fact that they are an elected goverment only gives a stronger case for the blockade, the people of Gaza chose their goverment and thus have no grounds on whining about a blockade by Israel who is at war with Hamas.
The fact that its an elected goverment just makes the blockade even more morally right than the blockades ecofarm mentioned on North Korea where the goverment is no an elected one and the Iranian goverment which is under criticism by the opposition that it forged the results
 

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I edited some, but my point is...

We wage economic warfare against Iran, North Korea, etc... why not Hamas? I mean, hell, they aren't even waging economic warfare against the 'country'... just the current group of tyrants. That seems rather restrained. Besides, exactly how does Hamas make money legitimately?

Do you think instead of economic warfare, we should provide economic assistance to terrorist groups? Think we should we be neutral towards them? Of course you don't - I'm making a point.

And yes, the point of the blockade is to neuter Hamas. I suppose that would include limiting their access to money (as is US policy). It's not like they sell anything on EBay or produce anything, ya know? Palestinians do, but Hamas doesn't. At least, not anything we want. Really, we must isolate and disempower them economically; that's obvious.
The problem is that we are ALSO isolating Palestinians who havent done anything wrong. Cutting Hamas' legs out from under them is fine, but economic warfare is not the way to do when their income isnt from economic activity that can be simply shut off.

I mean, what's next? "Hamas is a humanitarian organization"? C'mon.
Actually....
Hamas - Council on Foreign Relations

"Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. Indeed, the extensive social and political work done by Hamas - and its reputation among Palestinians as averse to corruption - partly explain its defeat of the Fatah old guard in the 2006 legislative vote. Hamas funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services, and Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption—help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections."

Dont get me wrong, Hamas is an organization that uses children as bullet shields and produced an anti-Semetic Mickey Mouse kid's show rip-off; they are NOT warm and fuzzy people, but they do provide a lot to the Palestinian people. I dont think that should be enough to protect Hamas or excuse their criminal actives, but it's important to keep in mind.
 

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Dont get me wrong, Hamas is an organization that uses children as bullet shields and produced an anti-Semetic Mickey Mouse kid's show rip-off; they are NOT warm and fuzzy people, but they do provide a lot to the Palestinian people. I dont think that should be enough to protect Hamas or excuse their criminal actives, but it's important to keep in mind.
Hamas denies Humanitarian aid to Gaza.
As we speak the humanitarian aid from the flotilla of hatred is still packed up near the Israeli border with Gaza because Hamas refuses to allow it in.
Besides that, Israel has recently eased up the blockade on Gaza and has decided to allow candies, soft drinks, jams, and many other types of foods into the Strip.
Hamas has then announced that it would not allow it in.
 

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Hamas denies Humanitarian aid to Gaza.
As we speak the humanitarian aid from the flotilla of hatred is still packed up near the Israeli border with Gaza because Hamas refuses to allow it in.
Besides that, Israel has recently eased up the blockade on Gaza and has decided to allow candies, soft drinks, jams, and many other types of foods into the Strip.
Hamas has then announced that it would not allow it in.
Got a link for that?
 

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Got a link for that?
I don't have a link but it certainly was true a few days ago. I also came upon a site which said Israel was only allowing a small part of it in. Whether that is true or not I do not know.

The aid ship was bringing ten tons of stuff, a drop in the oceon with what Gaza needs. I was watching some videos last night and apparently they need about one million tons of cement to rebuild after the war that ended 16 months or so ago.

They get about 100 lorries of stuff from Israel per day, whether it is aid or not I do not know. 10 years ago they used to get 1,800 lorries per day.
 

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"According to officials in Gaza, Hamas has said it will not permit the supplies to enter the besieged territory until all detained activists are released and Israel agrees to deliver all aid consignments, including construction materials."

Sounds like a dumb reason to not allow them in, over a point of pride. I can see why Hamas doesnt want to accept them, they're trying to increase international pressure on Israel to break the siege.
 

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"According to officials in Gaza, Hamas has said it will not permit the supplies to enter the besieged territory until all detained activists are released and Israel agrees to deliver all aid consignments, including construction materials."

Sounds like a dumb reason to not allow them in, over a point of pride. I can see why Hamas doesnt want to accept them, they're trying to increase international pressure on Israel to break the siege.
sounds to me like Hamas are using a "collective punishment" on their own people just to make Israel look bad, but thats not really news around here.
 

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I don't have a link but it certainly was true a few days ago. I also came upon a site which said Israel was only allowing a small part of it in. Whether that is true or not I do not know.

The aid ship was bringing ten tons of stuff, a drop in the oceon with what Gaza needs. I was watching some videos last night and apparently they need about one million tons of cement to rebuild after the war that ended 16 months or so ago.

They get about 100 lorries of stuff from Israel per day, whether it is aid or not I do not know. 10 years ago they used to get 1,800 lorries per day.
10 years ago the people of Sderot could sleep well at night.
 
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