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Israeli army admits three killed Gazans were civilians

Degreez

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BBC News - Israeli army admits three killed Gazans were civilians

The Israeli army has admitted that three Palestinian men it killed in Gaza on Sunday were civilians, and not terrorists, as previously claimed.

Brig Gen Ayal Eisenberg said one of the men had picked up a grenade launcher abandoned in a field, and Israeli troops mistakenly opened fire, thinking they were about to come under attack.

Among those killed were a 91-year-old farm worker and his grandson, aged 17.
OK

At the time, Israeli army radio described the men as "terrorists", but Gen Ayal Eisenberg now says the soldiers made a mistake.

"The civilians killed by our soldiers' fire... were not involved in any terrorist operation," he told army radio.

"Our soldiers identified a civilian who was picking up an RPG [rocket propelled grenade] and, thinking he was going to fire at them, opened fire" in his direction, he added.
So what exactly was this civilian doing? The soldier identified him picking up an RPG. Seems quite improbable since the General just said none of those killed were involved in any terrorist operation.

Another part that got my attention:

Separately, a report published by an Israeli human rights group found that Israeli soldiers who kill Palestinians were rarely punished.

The B'Tselem report released on Tuesday said that the military investigated only 22 of 148 cases submitted by the group.

No criminal charges were brought in any of the cases, which involved the killing of 288 Palestinian civilians between 2006 and 2009, it said.
That's just plain sad.
 

OscarB63

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Separately, a report published by an Israeli human rights group found that Israeli soldiers who kill Palestinians were rarely punished.

The B'Tselem report released on Tuesday said that the military investigated only 22 of 148 cases submitted by the group.

No criminal charges were brought in any of the cases, which involved the killing of 288 Palestinian civilians between 2006 and 2009, it said.
That's just plain sad.
or it could be that this group just routinely submits bullspit claims
 

ido_

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So what exactly was this civilian doing? The soldier identified him picking up an RPG. Seems quite improbable since the General just said none of those killed were involved in any terrorist operation.
well actually it depends, do you know the time of day in which this unfortanate incident took place?
using night vision you can easily confuse RPG with a agriculture equipment...

No criminal charges were brought in any of the cases, which involved the killing of 288 Palestinian civilians between 2006 and 2009, it said.
Thats a lie.
heres a first result from simple googling:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/border-policeman-accused-in-killing-of-palestinian-boy-1.292177

Prosecutors present letter of indictment against former border guard Omri Abu, charging him with causing death by negligence in shooting of 10-year-old Palestinian boy in Na'alin in 2008.
I believe 2008 is somewhere in between 2006 and 2009.
 
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OscarB63

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well actually it depends, do you know the time of day in which this unfortanate incident took place?
using night vision you can easily confuse RPG with a agriculture equipment...
the identity of what the guy picked up was not in question. I am sure, after the incident they confiscated it. the GEN is stating that the soldiers mistook the guy's intent, not mistook what he picked up.
 

ido_

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the identity of what the guy picked up was not in question. I am sure, after the incident they confiscated it. the GEN is stating that the soldiers mistook the guy's intent, not mistook what he picked up.
so he did pick up an RPG?
 

CJ 2.0

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so he did pick up an RPG?
That was my understanding as well. I guess somebody ditched the RPG and this poor sap picked it up and pointed it (inadvertently or otherwise) at the IDF.
 

OscarB63

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That was my understanding as well. I guess somebody ditched the RPG and this poor sap picked it up and pointed it (inadvertently or otherwise) at the IDF.
that was the way I read it. My question is why was the guy picking up an RPG anyway? unexpended/exploded ordinances of any kind are inherently dangerous and can go off with little or no provocation. unless you are trained to use a weapon, you shouldn't be handling it. If the guy saw it and was concerned, he should've kept an eye on it while one of his buddies flagged down the IDF, who obviously were in the vicinity.

Had the IDF not shot him, he could have just as easily accidentally fired off the RPG and blown up someone's house killing more than 3 innocent civilians.

Unfortunately for this guy, the IDF don't have all the overzealous rules of engagement that US forces do.
 
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donsutherland1

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The BBC piece notes:

The Israeli army has admitted that three Palestinian men it killed in Gaza on Sunday were civilians, and not terrorists, as previously claimed.

Brig Gen Ayal Eisenberg said one of the men had picked up a grenade launcher abandoned in a field, and Israeli troops mistakenly opened fire, thinking they were about to come under attack.
To its credit, the IDF acknowledged the error. It was a tragic mistake. An error is very different from a deliberate attack.
 

expandmymind

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Thats a lie.
heres a first result from simple googling:
Border policeman accused in killing of Palestinian boy - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News



I believe 2008 is somewhere in between 2006 and 2009.
You have misunderstood what B'tselem have stated. They say that no charges have been brought in the cases they put forward.
The B'Tselem report released on Tuesday said that the military investigated only 22 of 148 cases submitted by the group.
And if you'll note, the example you have provided may have taken place in 2008, but nothing happened until this year.

25 May 2010: Border police officer who shot a Palestinian boy charged with negligent manslaughter

Ahmed Musa, 10 years old, was shot in the head in July 2008, after a demonstration against the construction of the separation barrier in the West Bank village of Ni'lin. Today the prosecution indicted the border police officer involved with negligent manslaughter
B'Tselem - Press Releases - 25 May 2010: Border police officer who shot a Palestinian boy charged with negligent manslaughter

I suggest you spend some time at the link above. Spend a lot of time there, please.

I also read of another case in which, due to B'tselem, two soldiers were charged this year (or prosecuted?) for an intimidating prisoners with a gun or something similar. They got, or were looking at, a few years, but the IDF rarely ever investigate their own. When they do it usually ends up a complete whitewash. Hell the US/Israeli settler who gunned down about 27 innocent Palestinians praying in a mosque back in the 90's has a shrine dedicated to him.

Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'tselem and every other human rights organisation, along with the UN: Israel cannot investigate itself.

This is a well known fact backed up by 40 years of a brutal occupation in addition to the atrocities committed in the birth of Israel. Translated, what this really means is that it's ok to kill lowly Arabs - especially if they also happen to be Muslim.

Thank you.

And just to add, I cannot believe people are actually considering the IDF's claim that these civilians had an RPG. The same IDF who lie constantly, who have already lied about this very case claiming they were not civilians! And to suggest that Hamas just left a rocket launcher lying around is insane, literally. They don't have two pennies to rub together and they're supposedly just leaving RPGs lying around? ok...
 
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MKULTRABOY

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that was the way I read it. My question is why was the guy picking up an RPG anyway? unexpended/exploded ordinances of any kind are inherently dangerous and can go off with little or no provocation. unless you are trained to use a weapon, you shouldn't be handling it.
By penalty of death apparently.

If the guy saw it and was concerned, he should've kept an eye on it while one of his buddies flagged down the IDF, who obviously were in the vicinity.
Yes, the friendly men who snipe at them from a distance from time to time.


Had the IDF not shot him, he could have just as easily accidentally fired off the RPG and blown up someone's house killing more than 3 innocent civilians.
So you think it was good that this old man and this young boy were klilled for the sake of an imaginary kill count they wouldve caused to the benefit of saving one life in your mind?
 

ido_

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You have misunderstood what B'tselem have stated. They say that no charges have been brought in the cases they put forward.
Also a lie, the soldier who has been charged with manslaughter at cast lead was investigated following a B'selem complaint.

And if you'll note, the example you have provided may have taken place in 2008, but nothing happened until this year.

25 May 2010: Border police officer who shot a Palestinian boy charged with negligent manslaughter

B'Tselem - Press Releases - 25 May 2010: Border police officer who shot a Palestinian boy charged with negligent manslaughter
B'selem said "No criminal charges were brought in any of the cases, which involved the killing of 288 Palestinian civilians between 2006 and 2009", meaning the incidents took place at that era, not the charges.

I suggest you spend some time at the link above. Spend a lot of time there, please.
Who told you I didn't? Actually we were getting their reports to the outposts we were stationed in at the west bank.
 
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expandmymind

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Also a lie, the soldier who has been charged with manslaughter at cast lead was investigated following a B'selem complaint.
.
Could you back up this claim please?

B'selem said "No criminal charges were brought in any of the cases, which involved the killing of 288 Palestinian civilians between 2006 and 2009", meaning the incidents took place at that era, not the charges.
.
I'm more inclined to say this was a mistake, not a lie, considering the BBC was taking information from a 'B'tselem report', which is unlikely to include the recent (May) developments.



Who told you I didn't? Actually we were getting their reports to the outposts we were stationed in at the west bank.
The small number of your posts I have read suggest otherwise. But fair enough.
 

ido_

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Could you back up this claim please?
For the charges or that B'selem are the ones who filed the charges?
heres the charges: IDF soldier charged with killing woman during Gaza war - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
will have to do a better search to find the article claiming it was originated with complaints of several human right groups.


I'm more inclined to say this was a mistake, not a lie, considering the BBC was taking information from a 'B'tselem report', which is unlikely to include the recent (May) developments.
Come on, that was just one example, there is at least one story like this every year, heres another one from 2008:
Former Border Guard officer convicted of manslaughter - Israel News, Ynetnews

The small number of your posts I have read suggest otherwise. But fair enough.
The small number of posts I've read from you suggest you are just another lies spreading member of the Palestinian propoganda machine.
 

expandmymind

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For the charges or that B'selem are the ones who filed the charges?
heres the charges: IDF soldier charged with killing woman during Gaza war - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
will have to do a better search to find the article claiming it was originated with complaints of several human right groups.

Ah, so the Goldstone report then, not B'tselem like you claim...

For
Come on, that was just one example, there is at least one story like this every year, heres another one from 2008:
Former Border Guard officer convicted of manslaughter - Israel News, Ynetnews
Eh, that happened in Jaffa. I'm sure you're aware that Jaffa is inside Israel?

For
The small number of posts I've read from you suggest you are just another lies spreading member of the Palestinian propoganda machine.
I would love for you to point out where I have lied. I tend not to do that (ever) as lies can be found out, easily.

The Palestinian case really doesn't need propaganda - the truth does the trick.
 

ido_

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Aunt Spiker

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Interesting to see this happening with other countries.

And, from everyone's reactions, you'd think it was the first time *ever* that a civilian was killed over there.
 

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Interesting to see this happening with other countries.

And, from everyone's reactions, you'd think it was the first time *ever* that a civilian was killed over there.

unfortunately...once you pick up a weapon, you cease to be a "civilian"
 

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unfortunately...once you pick up a weapon, you cease to be a "civilian"
Is that their opinion of the issue or yours?

I live in an area that's heavily populated with gun-owners. I don't draw connection between "carrying a weapon" and "not being a civilian." To me there's extra steps involved in gracing out of civilianism - which is not affected by where you live, what the status is of your country (peace/war) and so forth.

But, allbeit, my view is probably very Americanized.
 

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Is that their opinion of the issue or yours?

I live in an area that's heavily populated with gun-owners. I don't draw connection between "carrying a weapon" and "not being a civilian." To me there's extra steps involved in gracing out of civilianism - which is not affected by where you live, what the status is of your country (peace/war) and so forth.

But, allbeit, my view is probably very Americanized.
you also don't live in a state of terror. huge difference.
 

OscarB63

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you also don't live in a state of terror. huge difference.
true, let me amend my statement as follows:


Unfortunately, when you live in a region where people who are dressed just like you routinely attack the military, if you pick up a weapon in the presence of said military, you cease to be a civilian.

better? more PC?
 

ido_

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Is that their opinion of the issue or yours?

I live in an area that's heavily populated with gun-owners. I don't draw connection between "carrying a weapon" and "not being a civilian." To me there's extra steps involved in gracing out of civilianism - which is not affected by where you live, what the status is of your country (peace/war) and so forth.

But, allbeit, my view is probably very Americanized.
Hmm, one will have to differ one weapon from the other, a small hand gun is not in the same status as a hunting shot gun which is obvioulsly not in the same as an assault rifle and an RPG launcher... well I've never seen anyone using it to scare off burglars or hunt ducks...
While I agree carrying an RPG doesn't make you a terrorist, it does make you a militant, especially at a time RPGs are being fired at IDF tanks
 

MetalGear

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That was my understanding as well. I guess somebody ditched the RPG and this poor sap picked it up and pointed it (inadvertently or otherwise) at the IDF.
Well that makes sense. How about the other two? Did they inadvertenly pick up a grenade and inadvertently pull the pin and inadvertenly throw it towards the soldiers? Seriously you can't blame anybody for shooting the **** out of them if there pointing an RPG at you. The first thought process isn't "oh maybe he didn't means it!!".
 

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Hmm, one will have to differ one weapon from the other, a small hand gun is not in the same status as a hunting shot gun which is obvioulsly not in the same as an assault rifle and an RPG launcher... well I've never seen anyone using it to scare off burglars or hunt ducks...
While I agree carrying an RPG doesn't make you a terrorist, it does make you a militant, especially at a time RPGs are being fired at IDF tanks
Yeah - militant.

I can see that.
 
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