Israel warns of unilateral steps if PA seeks UN statehood

[ecofarm]

No, that's the definition.

Targetting civilians, with the purpose of inducing terror for political or ideological gain.

Any other definition is base-level sympathy.

 

[bub]

No, that's the definition.

There are dozens of different definitions.

The first modern "terrorists" did not target lambda civilians, for example, they targeted heads of states (Tsar Alexander II)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodnaya_Volya_(organization)
Nihilist movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ecofarm]

Definition of terrorism today:

Targetting civilians, with the purpose of inducing terror for political or ideological gain.


I'm not interested in the lambda civilians of Tsar Blahblah. Sorry, I'm not an ancient history buff - and I certainly would not propose such for comparison today.

Nihilism is stupid. Even relative morality is less stupid.

 

[bub]

Definition of terrorism today:

Targetting civilians, with the purpose of inducing terror for political or ideological gain.

YOUR own definition, among dozens of others.

Definitions of terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ecofarm]

It's the best definition today. If you disagree you are surely the enemy.

 

[Demon of Light]

If you disagree you are surely the enemy.

:wow: Uhhhh . . . . excuse me . . . . . . is that some sort of joke? :unsure13:

 

[ecofarm]

Speak of the devil and he doth appear.

Just sayin'

 

[ido_]

Sorry, I misunderstood something, you were right.

However Abbas' term finished over one year ago. And is it really legitimate to ignore the party who was plebiscited by the Palestinians during their last election?

Its the same party you call more legite than Abbas who bans the new elections, not Abbas' party.

 

[ido_]

who should be terrorised?

First of all the IDF doesn't target civilians, those who target civilians are charged in court.

As for the picture from 2008, its really easy to hand pick a year and show some information without explaining what we see here really.
"Palestinians killed by IDF in Gaza" - who are those Palestinians, terrorists? militants? civilians? The diagram doesn't tell us.
"Israelies killed by Palestinians in Israel" - Are those civilians? IDF personal? what? and what does it mean "in Israel" the diagram doesn't count the Israelies killed in the occupied territories? Ambushing a pregnant woman doesn't count as terrorisem if its done in the outskirts of Hebron?

I find this diagram pretty odd, not because of the death toll of Palestinians, but rather by the death toll of Israelies, 2008 was a long time ago but I don't remember a situation where every month there was an Israeli civilian who was killed in a terrorist act, I suspect the numbers do include army personal.

 

[justabubba]

First of all the IDF doesn't target civilians, those who target civilians are charged in court.

As for the picture from 2008, its really easy to hand pick a year and show some information without explaining what we see here really.
"Palestinians killed by IDF in Gaza" - who are those Palestinians, terrorists? militants? civilians? The diagram doesn't tell us.
"Israelies killed by Palestinians in Israel" - Are those civilians? IDF personal? what? and what does it mean "in Israel" the diagram doesn't count the Israelies killed in the occupied territories? Ambushing a pregnant woman doesn't count as terrorisem if its done in the outskirts of Hebron?

I find this diagram pretty odd, not because of the death toll of Palestinians, but rather by the death toll of Israelies, 2008 was a long time ago but I don't remember a situation where every month there was an Israeli civilian who was killed in a terrorist act, I suspect the numbers do include army personal.

if you strongly object to the data presented, then show us your data using a different time frame and/or a more broad geographic coverage
prove to us that the disparate numbers presented are illegitimate

i offer that challenge knowing you won't
because the data provided reveals the hostilities directed toward the Palestinians by the israelis FAR exceeds what is directed at them in return

 

[Apocalypse]

It's just the way you fight in asymetric conflicts.

Not me, it's just the way inhuman beings fight, in any conflict.

If Belgium would invade my country tomorrow and occupy it, it would still be an inhuman act for me if I'd be going to your house in Belgium and would execute your entire family with bullets to the heads because they carry a Belgian citizenship. That's inhuman, that's terrorism.

Likewise, the support for terrorism and acts of terror requires pretty much the same amount of inhumanity.

 

[bub]

Not me, it's just the way inhuman beings fight, in any conflict.

If Belgium would invade my country tomorrow and occupy it, it would still be an inhuman act for me if I'd be going to your house in Belgium and would execute your entire family with bullets to the heads because they carry a Belgian citizenship. That's inhuman, that's terrorism.

Likewise, the support for terrorism and acts of terror requires pretty much the same amount of inhumanity.

It's not more "human" to use napalm or mines or rockets, is it?

For the last time, "terrorism" is just a way to fight. Many people do that, including the founding fathers of Israel back in the 30's and 40's.

 

[Apocalypse]

It's not more "human" to use napalm or mines or rockets, is it?

Using naplam, mines, rockets does not make a person "inhuman".
Using any kind of weapon to murder innocent human beings certainly does.

For the last time, "terrorism" is just a way to fight.

And I didn't say that it isn't, it is a way to fight, to "fight" innocent human beings, and it is a way used and supported by inhuman beings that have no place in our world.

Many people do that, including the founding fathers of Israel back in the 30's and 40's.

Israel has no "founding fathers", it differs from the US on that part.
And yet if one was to refer to the "founding" movement of Israel it would be the Zionist movement and not the Irgun or Lehi, the organizations that were founded over a decade after Palestinian Arab terrorism has become mainstream in the land of Mandate Palestine and have done nothing but show that they're no different from the Palestinian Arab terrorists.

 

[bub]

Using naplam, mines, rockets does not make a person "inhuman".
Using any kind of weapon to murder innocent human beings certainly does.



And I didn't say that it isn't, it is a way to fight, to "fight" innocent human beings, and it is a way used and supported by inhuman beings that have no place in our world.

I have already explained that it was only your own definition of terrorism that said "terrorism is killing innocents on purpose". Many other definitions include "not paying attention to civilian casualties" in terrorism (and thus events such as the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima or the operation cast lead could be considered as terror acts), while others don't make the difference between military and civilian objectives and focus on the particularity of terrorism, which is to scare people and try to obtain a change by using violence. Furthermore, some scholars argue that we tend to include "what our enemies do" in terrorism/war crimes, while what we do isn't either terrorism not a war crime (see for example how "bombing cities full of civilians" was not considered as a war crime in Nurenberg, it's just because the Brits and the Americans had completely destroyed Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima and dozens of other cities that way)

However I think we can agree on the fact that when innocents die, either by "terrorism" or "conventional warfare" is "inhumane".

Israel has no "founding fathers", it differs from the US on that part.
And yet if one was to refer to the "founding" movement of Israel it would be the Zionist movement and not the Irgun or Lehi, the organizations that were founded over a decade after Palestinian Arab terrorism has become mainstream in the land of Mandate Palestine and have done nothing but show that they're no different from the Palestinian Arab terrorists.

I do not wish to play a semantic game over this but I'll just mention that former prominent Israeli politicians such as prime minister Begin and minister Meridor were commanders of the Irgun.

 

[ido_]

if you strongly object to the data presented, then show us your data using a different time frame and/or a more broad geographic coverage
prove to us that the disparate numbers presented are illegitimate

i offer that challenge knowing you won't
because the data provided reveals the hostilities directed toward the Palestinians by the israelis FAR exceeds what is directed at them in return

The data presented shows the IDF kills alot of militants on the border with Gaza, this is not news, the IDF fights with Palestinian militant groups on the border on daily basis, I can't say it is the case today for sure but at 2007 when my brother was stationed there this was the case and back in 2003 when I was this was the case.

Pro-Palestinians just wait for the IDF to skrew up and kill civilians, when they do they sure let us know about it over this board, if the IDF killed even 20 civilians a month, not 70 - 100 as bub tried to suggest using this diagram this forum would have a thread opened on this topic at least twice a week. The IDF does kill civilians, accidents happen, the IDF doesn't target civilians, IDF soldiers, or at least the vast majority of them that do not have homocidal aspirations, will not knowingly shoot a civilian so trying to claim the IDF engages in terrorisem is bull****.

 

[justabubba]

The data presented shows the IDF kills alot of militants on the border with Gaza, this is not news, the IDF fights with Palestinian militant groups on the border on daily basis, I can't say it is the case today for sure but at 2007 when my brother was stationed there this was the case and back in 2003 when I was this was the case.

Pro-Palestinians just wait for the IDF to skrew up and kill civilians, when they do they sure let us know about it over this board, if the IDF killed even 20 civilians a month, not 70 - 100 as bub tried to suggest using this diagram this forum would have a thread opened on this topic at least twice a week. The IDF does kill civilians, accidents happen, the IDF doesn't target civilians, IDF soldiers, or at least the vast majority of them that do not have homocidal aspirations, will not knowingly shoot a civilian so trying to claim the IDF engages in terrorisem is bull****.

i look forward to seeing YOUR data set which supports your conclusion. until then the graph presented provides documentation that the Palestinians are the more likely victims of hostilities. unless you can refute it, that factual conclusion must prevail

 

[ido_]

i look forward to seeing YOUR data set which supports your conclusion. until then the graph presented provides documentation that the Palestinians are the more likely victims of hostilities. unless you can refute it, that factual conclusion must prevail

How is this diagram proving this? It clearly says Palestinians and not Civilians....

 

[justabubba]

How is this diagram proving this? It clearly says Palestinians and not Civilians....

if you actually have a point, express it

meanwhile, i will still be looking for your data which refutes the information presented, indicating that Palestinians have suffered much more hostility than they have inflicted on the israelis

again, i know you will not accept this challenge and will attempt to deflect away from it since any factual data would support that already offered data and conclusion

 

[ido_]

if you actually have a point, express it

meanwhile, i will still be looking for your data which refutes the information presented, indicating that Palestinians have suffered much more hostility than they have inflicted on the israelis

again, i know you will not accept this challenge and will attempt to deflect away from it since any factual data would support that already offered data and conclusion

The point is proven in the headline of the diagram. No indication of Civilians appears
you want a proof for my point - in December 2008 (Cast Lead) 3 Israeli civilians were killed, from rockets, the 4th was a soldier who was killed from a mortar shell.

 

[justabubba]

The point is proven in the headline of the diagram. No indication of Civilians appears
you want a proof for my point - in December 2008 (Cast Lead) 3 Israeli civilians were killed, from rockets, the 4th was a soldier who was killed from a mortar shell.

for the third time i ask you to give us your data which documents only the number of civilians killed on each side, to refute the showing that the israeli hostility against Palestinians is VERY disproportionate
until you do, we only have data supporting the argument that the israeli hostility against Palestinians is MUCH worse than the hostility the Palestinians have inflicted on the israelis