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Israel Vs Palestine - the hard facts

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If it's occupied then which sovereign states land are they occupying, because FYI Egypt and Jordan have relinquished claims to the territory?

Sovereignty is not a requirement for establishing an occupation. I quote:

Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army, and the occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised

Notice how it doesn't say, "a sovereign state is considered occupied..."?
 
The statistics are accurate, they are however trying to paint a surreal image, and some of the questions that lead to those statistics are bizarre.
Take for example the prisoners statistics, "how many other-side's prisoners are held by each side"
Yes, only one Israeli is held by Hamas(Gilad Shalit), but he is being held illegally and has been held illegally for 4 years now. He is held in inhumane conditions and is not allowed to be seen by his family or pretty much anyone else, not even the red cross.
On the other hand, the thousands of Palestinian prisoners are held for actual crimes committed by those thousands of people, they are allowed to be seen by visitors, and the conditions they are held in are very humane.
The majority of those prisoners, also, are short-term prisoners, that come and go after a few weeks. The rest are actual terrorists, people who've murdered or have plotted to murder scores of innocents.

Besides that if anyone here is really funny enough to even suggest that this source is not biased, simply check the opinion articles and the actual activity.

Straw man!

I haven't read anyone claiming IfAmericansKnew wasn't biased. Even Degreez is prepared to acknowledge such, provided their claims are refuted. CC merely refers to the site being "propaganda and not worthy of discussion" as if we can all take it as read because it's him saying so. Bias in itself is not however any reason to totally dismiss the hard data presented. If it's inaccurate, as you and CC et al claim, then why the reticence in proving it. On the contrary, you have just admitted that the prisoner statistics, as pure raw data, are correct. By all means, as you did here, put into the polemical context. You're quite right to do so. The hard data might, however, be useful and illuminating in any of these debates.
 
Actually, it's pathetic that you give the impression that you would give a site that is so clearly a propaganda site, validity. Refuting information on it would be a no-brainer, but if you give the site validity, I have no intention of wasting my time explaining to someone why 2+2 does NOT equal 5. Believe it if you want, Degreez. Doesn't make it any more accurate.

You were the one who made the claim they misrepresent information.

You were the one who made the claim they post inaccuracies.

You were the one who did not substantiate your claims.

Come back when you can prove your claims. Otherwise, they are completely baseless and should be totally disregarded.
 
Nothing I have read in this particular thread has sought to disallow criticism of any source.
Disagreement perhaps, but disallow, sorry I have not read that.

CC Post 22:
No, I'm telling you the entire site is propaganda and not worthy of discussion. Proving to you that 2+2 does not equal 5 is something that I should not need to do. If you think the site is valid, then I feel bad for you.

Disallow, as in deny the validity of even discussing the subject, not as in prohibit.
 
Straw man!

I haven't read anyone claiming IfAmericansKnew wasn't biased. Even Degreez is prepared to acknowledge such, provided their claims are refuted. CC merely refers to the site being "propaganda and not worthy of discussion" as if we can all take it as read because it's him saying so. Bias in itself is not however any reason to totally dismiss the hard data presented. If it's inaccurate, as you and CC et al claim, then why the reticence in proving it. On the contrary, you have just admitted that the prisoner statistics, as pure raw data, are correct. By all means, as you did here, put into the polemical context. You're quite right to do so. The hard data might, however, be useful and illuminating in any of these debates.

Straw man!

Non of the statements in my post claim that anyone has made the assertion that this source is not biased.

;)

Edit: Double straw man, see the part I've marked. Never claimed it's not accurate, and CC has stated that it is misrepresenting and its conclusions are torn-off. Mother of all straw man arguments.
 
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Straw man!

Non of the statements in my post claim that anyone has made the assertion that this source is not biased.

Then why say, You Post 49:
Besides that if anyone here is really funny enough to even suggest that this source is not biased, simply check the opinion articles and the actual activity.
if you are not claiming that?

Edit: Double straw man, see the part I've marked. Never claimed it's not accurate, and even CC has stated it is accurate but its conclusions are torn-off. Mother of all straw man arguments.

Ho hum. CC Post 4:
The website posted in the OP, is nothing but an anti-Israel site, chock full of misrepresentations and inaccuracies

Straw horses exposed.
 
Then why say, You Post 49: if you are not claiming that?
Eliminating future possibilities?
Ho hum. CC Post 4:

Straw horses exposed.
He could be referring to the opinion article or to the rest of the website, he has simply said that it is filled with inaccuracies and I agree with him.
He has never really said that the statistics specifically are inaccurate, just like Degreez has never really said that the source is not biased while he was defending its credibility.

Besides that, where is the part where I'm saying the statistics are inaccurate, as you've claimed that I've been stating?
So your straw man argument is still exposed there out in the cold night.
 
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Eliminating future possibilities?
Is that like a pre-emptive strike?
He has never really said that the statistics specifically are inaccurate
Yes. Yes, he did. I just quoted it to you verbatim. You are merely interpreting his meaning for him.
Besides that, where is the part where I'm saying the statistics are inaccurate, as you've claimed that I've been stating?
My bad, I mistook you for mbig when he tried to refute IAK with Btselem stats. Sorry, but it's easy to do. In any case I did acknowledge your concession thus:
On the contrary, you have just admitted that the prisoner statistics, as pure raw data, are correct.
Does that feel better?
 
Is that like a pre-emptive strike?
Exactly.
Yes. Yes, he did. I just quoted it to you verbatim. You are merely interpreting his meaning for him.
Well actually I'm just trying to remain politically correct as you are when you're claiming that Degreez hasn't implied that the source is not biased when he was defending it.
My bad, I mistook you for mbig when he tried to refute IAK with Btselem stats. Sorry, but it's easy to do. In any case I did acknowledge your concession thus: Does that feel better?
It all feels the same.
 
Well actually I'm just trying to remain politically correct as you are when you're claiming that Degreez hasn't implied that the source is not biased when he was defending it.
Sorry, I don't follow your point, but not to worry, it's late here, I must get to bed. In any case, I need to be sharp to keep up with you, Apo.
 
We'll we look forward to your reply when you "have more time". (which means 'bye-bye forever'/ooops' in your lingo)

This is just slagging for no reason except your ego. Your extra is not what this thread is about.

Because as it stands now.. IFAmericansKnew has been Gutted and CAMERA untouched. And the Casualty stat.. a big "So What".

You are so melodramatic all the time.

In May 2008, five Wikipedia editors involved in a secret CAMERA campaign to edit Wikipedia were banned by Wikipedia administrators, who wrote that the project's open nature "is fundamentally incompatible with the creation of a private group to surreptitiously coordinate editing by ideologically like-minded individuals".[20]

It is clearly a pro Israel Propaganda organisation.

Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is also a member of Campus Roundtable which I am pretty sure is an organisation I looked up before which is restricting academic freedom.


Does suffering more casulaties make you right or more moral?

How pathetic is this? What are you on?:shock: The point was that the OP was on statistics. There then was an avalanche of how this site could not be trusted and was laughable.

Obviously it is important whether there statistics are correct but to suggest I would be happy to see more Palestinians dead is sick.

That's precisely the idiotic/biased inference some (like 'If') make despite the FACT the Palestinians started and continued said Intifada/WAR quite happily/cynically for the PR it generated.

I have not a clue what you are on about now but it has nothing to do with this thread. Perhaps you need some sleep.
 
1. So there's NO answer to my post/CAMERA showing Grotesque Whoppers on the 'IF' site and made by it's owner.
Saying Israel, not the Arabs, invaded in 1948 and it was 'Holocaust' removes All credibility from Alison Weird.
2. NO misstatements of fact have been Shown by CAMERA.
3. Showing a higher casualty figure for Palestinians in the Intifada/WAR they started and continued (an IF mainstay), while meant to imply by You, Paul, and 'IF' they are more moral or Israel more brutal, has been exposed by me as a stupendous and goofy demonization proving NOTHING.
Despite the gratuitous and empty last section you quoted and said you have no idea what I'm talking about.. when in fact what I was talking about debunked the higher casualty figure's meaning. It has none.
What's also obvious is you consistently Lie about your 'time' and have it whenever you need another last word (instead of confronting real info you'll never be able to refute).
 
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The Latest LIE from Alison Weir. She has a Blog too.
Yes, unlike others here, I can do this myself.

AlisonWeir.org - Journal
An interesting revelation about what Helen Thomas's attackers really believe
CounterPunch has just published my article about Helen Thomas, and we've also posted an annotated version with links, photos and videos on our news site as well.

It's interesting to see the misreporting on Thomas's words. For example, nowhere did she say the word "Jews."

Another point also tells more about her critics than about her.

When one actually views the video, it appears that Thomas is referring to Israeli settlers. (Truthfully, the correct word should be colonists, but I'll use the commonly employed euphemism).

Her words are: "Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine. Remember, these people are occupied. And it’s their land…”

The reference to "occupied" would normally suggest the West Bank and Gaza, the Palestinian Occupied Territories. However, her attackers almost universally seem to have taken her words as referring to all of Israel.

In other words, in a sort of Freudian slip, her attackers acknowledge that all of the land of Palestine is occupied.
Interesting.
Her defense of Helen Thomas above saying/LYING she really didn't mean "Jews" but was talking about Settlers.
What a LYING anti-Israel/anti-Semite Alison Weird is!

Helen Thomas ALSO said they should go back to Poland and Russia.. she clearly meant ALL Jewish Israelis.. as there are NO 'Settlers' from "Poland" etc in 70 years.
 
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1. So there's NO answer to my post/CAMERA showing Grotesque Whoppers on the 'IF' site and made by it's owner.
Saying Israel, not the Arab, invaded in 19498 and it was 'Holocaust' removes All credibility from Alison Weird.
2. NO misstatements of fact have been Shown by CAMERA.

Of course not. It is just a propoganda site influencing US News, infiltrating Wiki and curtailing freedom of thought at Universities. Everything it says is true and anyone who writes anything it does not agree with is false. I am not so easily brainwashed.

3. Showing a higher casualty figure for Palestinians in the Intifada/WAR they started and continued (an IF mainstay), while meant to imply by You, Paul, and 'IF' they are more moral or Israel more brutal, has been exposed by me as a stupendous and goofy demonization proving NOTHING.

The point MBig was whether the statistics at IfAmericansknew could be trusted. You gave statistics which would appear to show they could not. However the UN stats made it seem likely they could. I think Apocalypse has confirmed that this is so.

That is all this is about. Look at the OP. Statistics.

Despite the gratuitous and empty last section you quoted and said you have no idea what I'm talking about.. when in fact what I was talking about debunked the higher casualty figure's meaning. It has none.
What's also obvious is you consistently Lie about your 'time' and have it whenever you need another last word (instead of getting real info to refute a post).

Oh you are just being ridiculous. That is all. Ridiculous. For some reason this thread has unnerved you so now you are just as far as I can see fantasying and going a bit crazy.
 
mbig said:
1. So there's NO answer to my post/CAMERA showing Grotesque Whoppers on the 'IF' site and made by it's owner.
Saying Israel, not the Arab, invaded in 19498 and it was 'Holocaust' removes All credibility from Alison Weird.
2. NO misstatements of fact have been Shown by CAMERA.

Of course not. It is just a propoganda site influencing US News, infiltrating Wiki and curtailing freedom of thought at Universities. Everything it says is true and anyone who writes anything it does not agree with is false. I am not so easily brainwashed.
Note Alexa quoted TWO Items but only answered ONE.
LOL
This Crucial point remains Untouched "1. So there's NO answer to my post/CAMERA showing Grotesque Whoppers on the 'IF' site and made by it's owner."

As to the second 'answered' (LOL) part she Admits CAMERA has not made factual misstatements and is REDUCED to merely calling this Media Watchdog 'Propaganda'.


alexa said:
The point MBig was whether the statistics at IfAmericansknew could be trusted. You gave statistics which would appear to show they could not. However the UN stats made it seem likely they could. I think Apocalypse has confirmed that this is so.

That is all this is about. Look at the OP. Statistics.
No again, Not true at all.
I said it didn't really matter "So what" numerous times to whether it 5 or 6 to 1. It doesn't matter.
It proves NOTHING despite the inference 'IF' and YOU ("answer Paul's post") sought to give it.. before I debunked it's intention.
That's what Propaganda is. Using a stat to try and demonize Israel that in reality does no such thing.
A perfect example of the old adage about stats.

Oh you are just being ridiculous. That is all. Ridiculous. For some reason this thread has unnerved you so now you are just as far as I can see fantasying and going a bit crazy.
"Unnerved"?
I'm debunking Weir and you quite methodically while you answer/last-word gratuitously despite saying you have no Time.
Who's "Unnerved"? (Hung up) Who came into this string in post #43 just to Try and answer me but didn't and continues despite 'no time'.
 
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You are just being grandiose over nothing. This thread simply gave some statistics. The only relevance is whether such statistics are accurate or not. Not one person has said that IfAmericansknew is a valid site. Whether it is or not I do not know but that is irrelevant when the OP only stated statistics. Nothing else. The only thing that is relevant is whether this site can be trusted for statistics.

This thread has little interest to me. Your desire to have a fight has even less.

It has been shown that the statistics are valid (see post 49) That is an end of it.
 
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You are just being grandiose over nothing. This thread simply gave some statistics. The only relevance is whether such statistics are accurate or not. Not one person has said that IfAmericansknew is a valid site. Whether it is or not I do not know but that is irrelevant when the OP only stated statistics. Nothing else. The only thing that is relevant is whether this site can be trusted for statistics.

This thread has little interest to me. Your desire to have a fight has even less.

It has been shown that the statistics are valid (see post 49) That is an end of it.
Now dwindled to the above, unable to answer Anything.
Just a disclaimer "I don't know/just a stat" from now refuted categorical statements previous.

This clearly being not only Untrue but another Whopper:
"This thread has little interest to me. Your desire to have a fight has even less."
As your focus clearly is me/"fight" as you came in on post #43 just to do.
And despite "no time" continue.

Oh, and No takers I see on my exposing Weir's dishonest Helen Thomas defense. Another nail.
 
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No, I said that I found it politically balanced. My point was to say that no media can claim to be unbiased, but some make an effort to present balanced viewpoints, as Al Jazeera does.

If calling suicide terrorists "martyrs" is a display of balance, I'd sure hate to see what happened if they ever decided to write from an Arabist point of view.
 
This thread has little interest to me.

You have quite the peculiar way of displaying this supposed lack of interest.


Have you possibly considered aligning your actions with what you say about yourself?
 
Sovereignty is not a requirement for establishing an occupation. I quote:



Notice how it doesn't say, "a sovereign state is considered occupied..."?

That is from The Hague Convention Section III Military Authority over the territory of the hostile State Article 42.

Notice how the section title specifically refers to a state actor meaning that all articles held within that section refer to territory of a state? So I ask again which state's territory is Israel "occupying"???

Furthermore; Section I Article 2 from the Hague Conventions specifically states and I quote:

The provisions contained in the Regulations referred to in Article 1, as well as in the present Convention, do not apply except between Contracting Powers, and then only if all the belligerents are parties to the Convention."

Thanks for playing, have a good one.
 
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I'd have a fair bet that your opinion on the reputations of DP members is going to be quite different from many others'.

I would imagne the reputatons of those pointing out the nature of this hate site and the reputations of those supporting it all depends upon whether one shares the same views as the hate site or doesn't, don't ya think?
 
If calling suicide terrorists "martyrs" is a display of balance, I'd sure hate to see what happened if they ever decided to write from an Arabist point of view.

Apparently you have no idea what the definition of a 'martyr' is.

Typical.
 
That is from The Hague Convention Section III Military Authority over the territory of the hostile State Article 42.

Notice how the section title specifically refers to a state actor meaning that all articles held within that section refer to territory of a state?
And what is the legal definition of a State? Notice how it makes no references to sovereignty?

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The U.S. State Department Digest of International Law says that the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne provided for the application of the principles of state succession to the "A" Mandates. The Treaty of Versailles (1920) provisionally recognized the former Ottoman communities as independent nations. It also required Germany to recognize the disposition of the former Ottoman territories and to recognize the new states laid down within their boundaries. The Treaty of Lausanne required the newly created states that acquired the territory to pay annuities on the Ottoman public debt, and to assume responsibility for the administration of concessions that had been granted by the Ottomans. A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties. In its Judgment No. 5, The Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions, the Permanent Court of International Justice also decided that Palestine was responsible as the successor state for concessions granted by Ottoman authorities. The Courts of Palestine and Great Britain decided that title to the properties shown on the Ottoman Civil list had been ceded to the government of Palestine as an allied successor state.
So I ask again which state's territory is Israel "occupying"???
Palestine's.

Furthermore; Section I Article 2 from the Hague Conventions specifically states and I quote:

The provisions contained in the Regulations referred to in Article 1, as well as in the present Convention, do not apply except between Contracting Powers, and then only if all the belligerents are parties to the Convention."

Thanks for playing, have a good one.

Status of territories captured by Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The ICJ outlined the legal rationale for the supporters of this view in its advisory opinion of 9 July 2004. It noted:

...under customary international law as reflected (...) in Article 42 of the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land annexed to the Fourth Hague Convention of 18 October 1907 (hereinafter “the Hague Regulations of 1907”), territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army, and the occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. The territories situated between the Green Line (see paragraph 72 above) and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories, as described in paragraphs 75 to 77 above, have done nothing to alter this situation. All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.

On the application of the fourth Geneva Convention, the Court noted:

...for the purpose of determining the scope of application of the Fourth Geneva Convention, it should be recalled that under common Article 2 of the four Conventions of 12 August 1949:

“In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance."

(...) the Court notes that, according to the first paragraph of Article 2 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that Convention is applicable when two conditions are fulfilled: that there exists an armed conflict (whether or not a state of war has been recognized); and that the conflict has arisen between two contracting parties. (...) The object of the second paragraph of Article 2 is not to restrict the scope of application of the Convention, as defined by the first paragraph, by excluding therefrom territories not falling under the sovereignty of one of the contracting parties. It is directed simply to making it clear that, even if occupation effected during the conflict met no armed resistance, the Convention is still applicable.

Nice try, though.
 
And what is the legal definition of a State? Notice how it makes no references to sovereignty?

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Nice try, though.
We've been thru this several times and you always try the same silly trick.
The same "state of Palestine" link you quote is just citing ONE opinion from that Link.
There's enough in it to post just as much to the Contrary.
We've done it before and you still are trying to pass off as fact a singular opinion of many on the very link. Which I guess you hope no one else will read.

Nice try though. Just not on me. (thus 'ignore'.. 98% of the time.)
 
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And what is the legal definition of a State? Notice how it makes no references to sovereignty?


There is no Palestinian state sovereign or otherwise.


There is no Palestinian state and even if the Palestinian Mandate counted towards statehood that statehood dissolved with the UN Partition of 1948.



Oh I see plain English isn't your strong suit and clearly not the strong suit of the ICJ if they had meant it to apply to territory under occupation not of a high contracting party then they would have said "territory" and not "territory of a High Contracting Party." FYI this advisory opinion was in reference to the Geneva Conventions not the Hague Conventions, and the ICJ has no jurisdiction in this matter their opinion does not have the weight of international law. Regardless the 1st paragraph of Common Article 2 makes it abundantly clear that the Geneva Conventions themselves only apply to high contracting parties:

Art. 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace-time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

While the 3rd Paragraph states that:

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

This is in reference to the mutual relations between the Powers who are parties to the conflict not the Power which is not unless that power accepts and applies the provisions thereof which the Palestinians clearly have not.

Nice try though.
 
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