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Israel Takes a Stupid Pill (1 Viewer)

Billo_Really

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Sat Jul 15th, 2006 at 03:25:39 PM EST
by Larry Johnson


While most folks in the United States buy into the Hollywood storyline of poor little Israel fighting for it's survival against big, bad Muslims, the reality unfolding on our TV screens shows something else. Exodus, starring Paul Newman, is ancient history. Hamas and Hezbollah attacked military targets--kidnapping soldiers on military patrols may be an act of war and a provocation, but it is not terrorism. (And yes, Hezbollah and Hamas have carried out terrorist attacks in the past against Israeli civilians. I'm not ignoring those acts, I condemn them, but we need to understand what the dynamics are right now.) Israel is not attacking the individuals who hit their soldiers. Israel is engaged in mass punishment.

How did Israel respond? They bombed civilian targets and civilian infrastructure and have killed many civilians. Let's see if I have this right. The Arab "terrorists" attack military units, destroy at least one tank, and are therefore terrorists. Israel retaliates by launching aerial, naval, and artillery bombardments of civilian areas and they are engaging in self-defense. If we are unable to recognize the hypocrisy of this construct then we ourselves are so enveloped by propaganda and emotion that, like the Israelis, Hezbollah, and Hamas, we can't think rationally. We can only think in terms of tribalism and revenge.


http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/7/15/152539/965
Just like the US, Israel has a leader that never had any combat experience. And it shows!

If Israel wants to feel safe, they need to go after the ones that attacked them. What their doing now is bullshit! They have a right to defend themselves, they have a right to exist, but so do peaceful Muslim's that live in their neck of the woods.

Hezbollah needs to realize what their doing will only bring them grief and cause more problems.

Where the hell is Rodney King!
 
I believe that Israel is following the path Hizbullah set. Hizbullah does not care about Lebanon per se, but they view it as something that may ignite the larger shia revolution, or at least cause more people to join their cause.

By attacking greater Beirut when the world knows they have the capability to precision bomb makes them look like the bad guys in this, even though it was clearly a reaction to hizbullah actions

They should have tried to work with the Lebanese Government, which has tried to disarm Hizbullah, to due the task.

But...Last time israel decided to do this, they tried to work with the maronites who used the israelis for their secular goals...

Too bad for them Sharon had that stroke. He knows something about invading Lebanon...
 
Originally posted by joby:
I believe that Israel is following the path Hizbullah set. Hizbullah does not care about Lebanon per se, but they view it as something that may ignite the larger shia revolution, or at least cause more people to join their cause.

By attacking greater Beirut when the world knows they have the capability to precision bomb makes them look like the bad guys in this, even though it was clearly a reaction to hizbullah actions

They should have tried to work with the Lebanese Government, which has tried to disarm Hizbullah, to due the task.

But...Last time israel decided to do this, they tried to work with the maronites who used the israelis for their secular goals...

Too bad for them Sharon had that stroke. He knows something about invading Lebanon...
I think Israel should have tried a little more diplomacy with Lebanon. If we want democracy in that part of the world, and Lebanon does have a fledgling democracy, Israel is just shooting itself in the foot. What incentive is there for country's in that part of the world to become democratic if Israel reacts the same way they do with terrorists.
 
The Muslims have their terrorist groups to blame and the Israelis have their Zionist religious prejudice to blame! Neither group will allow the majority of Muslims and Jews in tha area to have peace. When you begin with the Zionist belief that a German of Russian Jew has the right to take farms away from the Palestinians that lived there for centuries because God gave it to you, this is were it ends! I wonder how it would have played out if the Bible said Texas was given to the Jews? Maybe the English and U.S. meddling after WW II wasn't such a good idea! :roll:
 
I’m glad you people live in a world where you can negotiate with terrorists.

I can tell you guys don’t have a damn CLUE as to just WHO and WHAT the Hezbulla are.
 
Billo_Really said:
I think Israel should have tried a little more diplomacy with Lebanon. If we want democracy in that part of the world, and Lebanon does have a fledgling democracy, Israel is just shooting itself in the foot. What incentive is there for country's in that part of the world to become democratic if Israel reacts the same way they do with terrorists.

Hesballah holds 23 seats in the Lebanese parliament.
 
You're right Billo, it is BS, but this is how Israel has always dealt with terrorists. Suicide bomber sets themselves off and Israel retaliates by firing missiles into the apartment building where the person lived.

Too bad Sharon isn't around, the "Butcher of Beirut" could have a repeat performance.
 
Billo_Really said:
Just like the US, Israel has a leader that never had any combat experience. And it shows!

If Israel wants to feel safe, they need to go after the ones that attacked them. What their doing now is bullshit! They have a right to defend themselves, they have a right to exist, but so do peaceful Muslim's that live in their neck of the woods.

Hezbollah needs to realize what their doing will only bring them grief and cause more problems.

Where the hell is Rodney King!

That article was quite ignorant. Name me a single target that Israel intentionally hit that was purely civilian.
 
Mr. D said:
The Muslims have their terrorist groups to blame and the Israelis have their Zionist religious prejudice to blame! Neither group will allow the majority of Muslims and Jews in tha area to have peace. When you begin with the Zionist belief that a German of Russian Jew has the right to take farms away from the Palestinians that lived there for centuries because God gave it to you, this is were it ends! I wonder how it would have played out if the Bible said Texas was given to the Jews? Maybe the English and U.S. meddling after WW II wasn't such a good idea! :roll:

Ms. D.,

1.) That area was known as JUDEA until a jew-hating roman general changed its name to Palestine. So lets not go there. The arabs are mistaken in their belief that they were there first because they were not. The romans are ultimately to blame for this whole fiasco.

2.) The Israelies do not kidnap, murder civilians, complete acts of terrorism, or instigate wars; however, the muslims do. The muslims are essentially brainwashed sheep from a land that does not allow religious freedom of ANY kind.

3.) You should be ashamed of yourself for pointing the finger at Israel. The jews have their flaws but at least they do not send in suicide bombers to attack busloads of children. Sadly, the same cannot be said for the palestinians.

ALL OF THE MUSLIMS IN THIS CONFLICT are governed by terrorist groups. The israelies get called terrorists by disgruntled islamic militants who think they're doing the right thing. History has certainly shown that they are doing anything but the right thing.
 
Billo posted a piece of a blog by former CIA guy Larry Johnson and pointed to Johnson's remarks in his criticism of Israeli military tactics. Those tactics, according to Johnson and Billo, are mainly "retaliates by launching aerial, naval, and artillery bombardments of civilian areas." That criticism seems quite uninformed and short-sighted. Israeli tactics, thus far, have been to isolate Hezbollah from its main state sponsors, Syria and Iran. Unlike Hezbollah, the IDF has not deliberately targeted civilian areas and indiscrimanetly rained untargeted rockets to fall where they may.

Along with employing precision munitions targetting the Hezbollah command structure, the IDF has struck at other military targets, including bridges, airports, roads and other infrastructure that would be used by Syrian and/or Iranian efforts to resupply Hezbollah. How real is the involvement of Syria and Iran? MEMRI offers the following documentation:

Military Cooperation Agreement Between Iran and Syria

On June 16, 2006, the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat reported: [1] "Well-informed sources in Tehran have told Al-Sharq Al-Awsat that the talks held in Tehran between Syrian Defense Minister Hassan Turkmani and his Iranian counterpart Mustafa Mohammad Najjar did not only deal with military and security aspects of the strategic cooperation between the two countries, but also with the situation in Lebanon... [The talks also] dealt with the situation in Palestine, and with the ways of assisting the Hamas and the [Islamic] Jihad in their conflict with Fatah...

"In a meeting with reporters after the signing of the military cooperation agreement, the Syrian defense minister stated that 'the American threats against Iran and Syria are nothing new... We are examining ways of countering these threats, and are establishing a joint front against Israel's threats... [since] Iran regards Syria's security as its own.'"

The daily reported that the Syrian defense minister had visited Tehran at the head of a large delegation escorted by army and intelligence officers, and met with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iranian Chief of Staff Hassan Fayrouz and Iranian Revolutionary Guards commander Yahya Rahim Safavi.

It further reported that "Iran has agreed to finance Syrian military deals with Russia, China and Ukraine, to equip the Syrian army with cannon, warheads, army vehicles, and missiles manufactured by the Iranian Defense Industries, and to enable Syrian navy drills.

"Syria, on its part, has renewed its previous agreements with Iran which allow Iranian ammunition trucks to pass [through Syria] into Lebanon..."

Al-Sharq Al-Awsat added that the Syrian and Iranian defense ministers "had agreed to establish a 'consultation room' and maintain open communication channels between the two countries in security and military matters."
[emphasis added]

(Note from whom Syria will be purchasing weapons.)

In an interesting juxtaposition to the specific part of Johnson's article chosen for posting by Billo, Johnson acknowledges the Iranian role:

Iran, meanwhile, is sitting in the catbird's seat. They have a well-trained and highly competent surrogate force in Hezbollah. Hezbollah's successful attack on Friday on an Israeli naval vessel is a reminder that Hezbollah is not a bunch of crazy kids carrying RPGs and wearing flip flops. I would be willing to wager that at least one Iranian military advisor was helping Hezbollah launch the missile that hit the Israeli ship. But Iran is doing more than simply engage in tit-for-tat. They are thinking strategically.

The events unfolding in Iraq and Lebanon are going Tehran's way. The United States is being portrayed in the world media as someone who tolerates and excuses attacks on civilian populations. The perception becomes the reality and the ability of the United States to rally support among the Russians, the Chinese, and even the French becomes more impaired. We need the international community to deal effectively with nuclear proliferation in North Korea and Iran. Now, we will be bogged down trying to defend Israel from an angry international community.

Strange, isn't it, that Johnson and Billo both recognize that Iran is pulling the strings here and constitutes a significant military threat to Israel, and further, at issue is not just Israel but Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions -- but yet both criticize Israel for its quite appropriate (IMO) response to same? Johnson' analysis is especially confused and contradictory.

Johnson and Billo have yet to realize one fact that over-rides all others in this situation: this is not an Arab-Israeli war. Iran is not Arab. Its Persian. Furthermore, most of Israel's traditional Arab enemies have checked out of the current conflict. The governments of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia are, to say the least, indifferent to the fate of Hamas and Hezbollah. The PLO (Fatah) isn't a player. The prime mover behind the terrorist groups who have started this war is a non-Arab state, Iran, which wasn't involved in any of Israel's previous wars.

What's happening in the Middle East, then, isn't just another chapter in the Arab-Israeli conflict. What's happening is an Islamist-Israeli war. You might even say this is part of the Islamist war on the West--but is India part of the West? Better to say that what's under attack is liberal democratic civilization, whose leading representative right now happens to be the United States.

In National Review online, William Kristol wrote:

States matter. Regimes matter. Ideological movements become more dangerous when they become governing regimes of major nations. Communism became really dangerous when it seized control of Russia. National socialism became really dangerous when it seized control of Germany. Islamism became really dangerous when it seized control of Iran--which then became, as it has been for the last 27 years, the Islamic Republic of Iran.

No Islamic Republic of Iran, no Hezbollah. No Islamic Republic of Iran, no one to prop up the Assad regime in Syria. No Iranian support for Syria (a secular government that has its own reasons for needing Iranian help and for supporting Hezbollah and Hamas), little state sponsorship of Hamas and Hezbollah. And no Shiite Iranian revolution, far less of an impetus for the Saudis to finance the export of the Wahhabi version of Sunni Islam as a competitor to Khomeini's claim for leadership of militant Islam--and thus no Taliban rule in Afghanistan, and perhaps no Hamas either.

It's of course true that Hamas--an arm of the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood--is at odds ideologically with Shia Iran, and that Shia and Sunni seem inclined to dislike, even slaughter, each other elsewhere in the Middle East. But temporary alliances of convenience are no less dangerous because they are temporary. Tell the Poles of 1939, and the French of 1940, that they really had little to worry about because the Nazi-Soviet pact was bound to fall apart.

The war against radical Islamism is likely to be a long one. Radical Islamism isn't going away anytime soon. But it will make a big difference how strong the state sponsors, harborers, and financiers of radical Islamism are. Thus, our focus should be less on Hamas and Hezbollah, and more on their paymasters and real commanders--Syria and Iran. And our focus should be not only on the regional war in the Middle East, but also on the global struggle against radical Islamism.

Iran and Syria are enemies of Israel. They are also enemies of the United States. This is our war as much as Israel's.
 
cherokee said:
I’m glad you people live in a world where you can negotiate with terrorists.

I can tell you guys don’t have a damn CLUE as to just WHO and WHAT the Hezbulla are.

Just keep killing and soon everything will be better right? We have to bomb our way to peace! And it is not like the Lebanonise civilians count as casualities, cause that is what they deserve for not being able to keep hezbollah out of Lebanon!

More bombs - cause it has a proven track record of working! Just look at Iraq!
 
python416 said:
Just keep killing and soon everything will be better right? We have to bomb our way to peace!
Worked against Japan and Germany.

And it is not like the Lebanonise civilians count as casualities, cause that is what they deserve for not being able to keep hezbollah out of Lebanon!
I see you conventiently ignore the Israeli casualties.

Tell us:
What, specifically, provoked the Hezboulah attacks on Israel that prompted the current Israeli operations?
 
python416 said:
Just keep killing and soon everything will be better right? We have to bomb our way to peace! And it is not like the Lebanonise civilians count as casualities, cause that is what they deserve for not being able to keep hezbollah out of Lebanon!

More bombs - cause it has a proven track record of working! Just look at Iraq!

You are aware that nobody on this thread has said any of the things you are saying, right?
 
Billo_Really said:
Just like the US, Israel has a leader that never had any combat experience. And it shows!

If Israel wants to feel safe, they need to go after the ones that attacked them. What their doing now is bullshit! They have a right to defend themselves, they have a right to exist, but so do peaceful Muslim's that live in their neck of the woods.

Hezbollah needs to realize what their doing will only bring them grief and cause more problems.

Where the hell is Rodney King!

1. Last I heard Rodney King was spending his life as a worthless strung out crack addict.

2. Just because Hezbollah and Lebanon is the "little guy" here does not mean that they are deserving of any simpathy. It's a simple premise here, if you dont want your nation's *** kicked, then do not intentionally harbor and support terrorist organizations. If Lebanon was not such a haven for Hezbollah, then they would not be under attack today.
 
Goobieman said:
Worked against Japan and Germany.


I see you conventiently ignore the Israeli casualties.

Tell us:
What, specifically, provoked the Hezboulah attacks on Israel that prompted the current Israeli operations?

The rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon are caused by weak governments unable to maintain control over their sovernty. Actions that furthur weaken the central government, like bombing Beruit in response to Hezbollah rockets, or halting tax transfers to the PA cause of an unwanted election result - actions such as those will futhur weaken the central government, and in turn strengthen the very militants that Israel wants to get rid of.

Israel has a right to defend itself, yes - but go after Hezbollah then, not Beruit. I don't see how bombing Beruit is an approriate response to problems in Hezbollah controlled Southern Lebanon. It make sense if you are looking for revenge - but it isn't going to get you peace.
 
Last edited:
python416 said:
The rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon are caused by weak governments unable to maintain control over their sovernty.
And this means Israel has less of a right to act, because...?

Actions that furthur weaken the central government, like bombing Beruit in response to Hezbollah rockets, or halting tax transfers to the PA cause of an unwanted election result - actions such as those will futhur weaken the central government, and in turn strengthen the very militants that Israel wants to get rid of.
Sometimes, things get worse before they get better.
This -doesnt- mean that Israel doesnt have the right to do what they are doing.

Israel has a right to defend itself, yes - but go after Hezbollah then, not Beruit. I don't see how bombing Beruit is an approriate response to problems in Hezbollah controlled Southern Lebanon.
Israel is taking out Syria and Iran's ability to send reinforcements. They have said a smuch.
IMHO, this is a precursor to move into Lebanon and physically remove Hezboulah.

I see you didnt answer my question:
What, specifically, provoked the Hezboulah attacks on Israel that prompted the current Israeli operations?
 
What a stupid double standard thread. :roll:

The striking of a military target will always involve civilian deaths when those civilians are held as shields. When humanity's monsters choose to place their fellow Muslims in front of their weapon systems, they are hoping that they can exploit our morality and refrain from attacking as they continue to launch missiles from the yards of "peaceful" Muslims. They assume all responsibilities for the deaths of their people.

Tell ya what....if America is ever attacked, we will place our missile sites in your homes and hope that our enemies stand by as we attack them.


Introduce yourself to warfare and this civilization and then form an opinion. Whining about the lack of combat experience a world leader has then using opinionated columns written by people who have never worn a uniform and haven't a clue about anything military is pathetic.
 
You know what? Who cares. We should not be getting involved because it is not our beef. The only we are is because of the Israel lobby!

We have to let them fight it out and get tired of fighting. Until they do, we cannot do anything or broker any peace.
 
python416 said:
The rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon are caused by weak governments unable to maintain control over their sovernty. Actions that furthur weaken the central government, like bombing Beruit in response to Hezbollah rockets, or halting tax transfers to the PA cause of an unwanted election result - actions such as those will futhur weaken the central government, and in turn strengthen the very militants that Israel wants to get rid of.

Israel has a right to defend itself, yes - but go after Hezbollah then, not Beruit. I don't see how bombing Beruit is an approriate response to problems in Hezbollah controlled Southern Lebanon. It make sense if you are looking for revenge - but it isn't going to get you peace.


With your logic we should be able to send several hundred thousand troops to Sanfransicko and then attack any nation from Sanfransicko. Then when any nation that we attacked from Safransicko wants to retaliat, we just claim it was Sanfransicko that attacked and not the USA.

What kind of bullshit logic is that?Lebanon intentionally harbored these scum.Therefore they are responsible for what Hezbollah does.Nations can not sit there and openly harbor terrorist and not take responsibility for what the terrorist do.
 
Goobieman said:
I see you didnt answer my question:
What, specifically, provoked the Hezboulah attacks on Israel that prompted the current Israeli operations?

My guess? Iran asking Hezbollah to change the subject for the G8 meeting. It seemed to work well for the Shia; Hezbollah is receiving new support from Lebaninse that wouldn't normally support them.
 
jamesrage said:
With your logic we should be able to send several hundred thousand troops to Sanfransicko and then attack any nation from Sanfransicko. Then when any nation that we attacked from Safransicko wants to retaliat, we just claim it was Sanfransicko that attacked and not the USA.

What kind of bullshit logic is that?Lebanon intentionally harbored these scum.Therefore they are responsible for what Hezbollah does.Nations can not sit there and openly harbor terrorist and not take responsibility for what the terrorist do.

Even Bush wants avoid weakening the Lebanonise government - and has said so in the past few days. They are not harboring terrorists, they are just too weak to assert control over the southern region of the country. The political influence of Hezbollah in Beruit doesn't mean the entire government is full or terrorists.
 
Someone said that Hamas and Hezbollah rockets are for the Israeli military only. This is not true at all.

Hamas has fired over 1000 rockets in to Israel since it was elected. The town of Sderot has been hit hundreds of times. Is the town a Sderot a military base? Is the city of Ashkelon with over 100,000 people a military base?

Hezbollah sends rockets into farms and villages and towns and the very large city of Haifa. Are these military bases? Is New York a military base?
Please someone. You are insulting the intelligence of people who can see and hear and read the news reports about Hamas and Hezbollah rocket attacks.
 
python416 said:
Even Bush wants to support the Lebanonise government - and has said so in the past few days.

I do not care what Bush says.JUst because I voted for the man doesn't mean I agree with him a 100% on everything.

They are not harboring terrorists, they are just too weak to assert control over the southern region of the country.

I am sure we could use that excuse too and launch attacks from Sanfransicko.
 
python416]Just keep killing and soon everything will be better right?

Sorry but some people need to be.

We have to bomb our way to peace! And it is not like the Lebanonise civilians count as casualities, cause that is what they deserve for not being able to keep hezbollah out of Lebanon!
More bombs - cause it has a proven track record of working! Just look at Iraq!

You damn right that’s what they deserve.
Bombs are what you should get when you support scum of the earth called Hezbolla. (They should have been wiped off the face of the earth in 1983!)

Lebanon’s Gov had their chance to deal with them. They chose not to
 
Shayah said:
Someone said that Hamas and Hezbollah rockets are for the Israeli military only. This is not true at all.

Hamas has fired over 1000 rockets in to Israel since it was elected. The town of Sderot has been hit hundreds of times. Is the town a Sderot a military base? Is the city of Ashkelon with over 100,000 people a military base?

Hezbollah sends rockets into farms and villages and towns and the very large city of Haifa. Are these military bases? Is New York a military base?
Please someone. You are insulting the intelligence of people who can see and hear and read the news reports about Hamas and Hezbollah rocket attacks.
The far left doesn't care about.According to their logic it is okay to harbor terrorist,not do anything about the terrorist orginizations they harbor and then play innocent when the terrorist relentlessly attack and scream bloody murder when there is retaliation against them.
 

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