Israel Should Not Capitulate

[Apocalypse]

Do you know what a straw man is?

Why can't East Jerusalem be the capital of a future Palestinian state? It is part of the Palestinian occupied territories, territories that will be part of a Palestinian state.

You do realize that at most they'll get an offering like that of the leftist prime minister, Olmert, who has offered them all of the Arab quarters of Jerusalem, and a united control over the holy sites in East Jerusalem, right?

 

[Degreez]

You do realize that at most they'll get an offering like that of the leftist prime minister, Olmert, who has offered them all of the Arab quarters of Jerusalem, and a united control over the holy sites in East Jerusalem, right?

And when they reject that "offer", I will stand up in place and applaud. I do not and will not ever recognize Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem. I do not think the Palestinians will ever accept it either.

 

[Apocalypse]

And when they reject that "offer", I will stand up in place and applaud. I do not and will not ever recognize Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem. I do not think the Palestinians will ever accept it either.

Recognition is merely the act of realizing something that is true.

You may choose not to realize that, but that doesn't promote you any further and leaves you in the place that you are at currently.

 

[ido_]

And when they reject that "offer", I will stand up in place and applaud. I do not and will not ever recognize Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem. I do not think the Palestinians will ever accept it either.

Really? so how do you explain they accepted Israeli citizenship? If they do not accept the annexation they should reject citizenship either, no? Or perhaps they are all hypocrates?

 

[Degreez]

Recognition is merely the act of realizing something that is true.

Which is why I said I will never recognize the illegal annexation... :roll:

 

[Apocalypse]

Which is why I said I will never recognize the illegal annexation... :roll:

Jerusalem unfortunately for you was never under Palestinian-Arab control.

 

[ido_]

Do you know what a straw man is?

Why can't East Jerusalem be the capital of a future Palestinian state? It is part of the Palestinian occupied territories, territories that will be part of a Palestinian state.

I have no problem with East Jerusalem being the capital but I do not understand the statement bub made: it's the only city that could be their capital, why the only? The parlament today sits in Ramalla, the mausoleum of Arafat is in Ramalla, why can't Ramalla be the capital? Why can't Beit Lehem or Hebron which are also holy cities for the Palestinians?

 

[Degreez]

Jerusalem unfortunately for you was never under Palestinian-Arab control.

It never had to be. It was declared a corpus separatum through the Partition Plan.

 

[Apocalypse]

It never had to be. It was declared a corpus separatum through the Partition Plan.

The partition plan was never accepted by the Palestinians, and its results were never recognized.

 

[Degreez]

I have no problem with East Jerusalem being the capital but I do not understand the statement bub made: it's the only city that could be their capital, why the only? The parlament today sits in Ramalla, the mausoleum of Arafat is in Ramalla, why can't Ramalla be the capital? Why can't Beit Lehem or Hebron which are also holy cities for the Palestinians?

The Parliament is only in Ramallah because it cannot be located in East Jerusalem. And Beit Lehem and Hebron are not holy cities, at least not like Jerusalem. Do you know what the Arabic words al-Quds mean in English?

Why does Jerusalem as a whole have to Israel's capital?

 

[Degreez]

The partition plan was never accepted by the Palestinians, and its results were never recognized.

Regardless if it was accepted or not, it was thrust upon the Palestinians in the guise of democracy and self-determination.

 

[ido_]

The Parliament is only in Ramallah because it cannot be located in East Jerusalem.

Fair enough, but you still didn't explain why Jerusalem is the ONLY city which can be the Palestinian capital.

And Beit Lehem and Hebron are not holy cities, at least not like Jerusalem.

Beit Lehem has the Church of the Nativity which is one of the holiest churches of the christian faith, many Palestinians are christians.
Hebron has Cave of the Patriarchs, Two weeks ago Israel decleared it a part of a Jewish herritage location which triggered Palestinian riots in Hebron, I don't know how holy it is for the muslims but it is Holy as the resting place of Abraham.

Do you know what the Arabic words al-Quds mean in English?

I know what it means in hebrew... is it good enough?

Why does Jerusalem as a whole have to Israel's capital?

It doesn't, and I never said it should, I don't see any reason for Israel to keep the arab neigborhoods of east Jerusalem. I do see a reason to keep the Jewish quater of the old city and the Jewish neighborhoods of east Jerusalem.

 

[Apocalypse]

Regardless if it was accepted or not, it was thrust upon the Palestinians in the guise of democracy and self-determination.

The Palestinians haven't accepted it and hence a Palestinian state was never established and the partition plan has never seen its end.

East Jerusalem is, hence, not entitled to the Palestinians right now - and that's why there is a recognition that Jerusalem's case would be solved by negotiations.

 

[Apocalypse]

The Parliament is only in Ramallah because it cannot be located in East Jerusalem. And Beit Lehem and Hebron are not holy cities, at least not like Jerusalem. Do you know what the Arabic words al-Quds mean in English?

Why does Jerusalem as a whole have to Israel's capital?

East Jerusalem holds the most holiest sites to Judaism, as opposed to the third holiest sites to Islam.

Secondly, Jerusalem is the place of birth of the Jewish people, their roots.

 

[Degreez]

East Jerusalem holds the most holiest sites to Judaism, as opposed to the third holiest sites to Islam.

Secondly, Jerusalem is the place of birth of the Jewish people, their roots.

Umm... I thought Egypt was the birth place of the Jewish people?

 

[Degreez]

The Palestinians haven't accepted it and hence a Palestinian state was never established and the partition plan has never seen its end.

Are you ignorant of relevant history here? The Palestinians had no say in accepting it.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine]United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Mehran Kamrava says Israeli sources often cite Jewish acceptance and Arab rejection of the U.N. partition plan as an example of the Zionists' desire for peaceful diplomacy and the Arabs' determination to wage war on the Jews. But he notes that more recent documentary analysis and interpretation of events leading up to and following the creation of the state of Israel fundamentally challenged many of the "myths" of what had actually happened in 1947 and 1948."[77] Simha Flapan wrote that it was a myth that Zionists accepted the UN partition and planned for peace, and that it was also a myth that Arabs rejected partition and launched a war.[78]

Chaim Weizmann commented on outside Arab interference with earlier partition proposals. He noted that Arab states, like Egypt and Iraq, had no legal standing in Palestinian affairs.[79] During the 1947 General Assembly Special Session on Palestine "The Egyptian representative explained, in reply to various statements, that the Arab States did not represent the Palestinian Arab population."[80] Avi Plascov says that the Arab countries had no intention of permitting the Palestinians a decisive role in the war or establishing a Palestinian state. He notes that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) could not carry out its decisions and could not count on local Palestinian support.[81]

During an Arab League Political Committee meeting in February 1948, the Mufti, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni asked for control of all affairs in Palestine. The Political Committee rejected all of his proposals on the basis that the Arab Higher Committee did not represent the Palestinian people. The Leagues' affairs were handled through its own Palestine Council, not through the Mufti or the AHC.[82] When the United States declined to recognize the All-Palestine Government, it said that it had been established without consulting the wishes of Arab Palestinians.[83]

In fact:

Ian Bickerton says that few Palestinians joined the Arab Liberation Army because they suspected that the other Arab States did not plan on an independent Palestinian state. Bickerton says for that reason many Palestinians favored partition and indicated a willingness to live alongside a Jewish state.

East Jerusalem is, hence, not entitled to the Palestinians right now - and that's why there is a recognition that Jerusalem's case would be solved by negotiations.

If the Palestinians are not entitled to East Jerusalem 'right now', then Israel is not entitled to West Jerusalem. If the Palestinians are not entitled to East Jerusalem 'right now', then all of Jerusalem should revert back to the corpus separatum status placed on it.

 

[Apocalypse]

Umm... I thought Egypt was the birth place of the Jewish people?

You thought wrong, the Jewish people were born in the Judah tribe, located in the Judah and Sammariah region and its heart in Jerusalem.

How did you get to Egypt, exactly?

 

[Apocalypse]

Are you ignorant of relevant history here? The Palestinians had no say in accepting it.

No, not really.
The Palestinians have chosen not to recognize the Partition plan.
Is that false? No, it's true.

The Palestinians have hence never followed the partition plan.
Is that false? No, it's true.

The partition plan was never effective on the Palestinian side.
Is that false? No, it's true.

Conclusion:
The Partition plan has no influence on Palestinian related decisions.

If the Palestinians are not entitled to East Jerusalem 'right now', then Israel is not entitled to West Jerusalem.

Incorrect, Israel has established a state with West Jerusalem within it, recognized by the UN.

If the Palestinians are not entitled to East Jerusalem 'right now', then all of Jerusalem should revert back to the corpus separatum status placed on it.

Incorrect, what's left now, as it is in reality, is to negotiate with the Palestinians on East Jerusalem's status.

 

[Degreez]

You thought wrong, the Jewish people were born in the Judah tribe, located in the Judah and Sammariah region and its heart in Jerusalem.

How did you get to Egypt, exactly?

The Jews (Israelites) of the First Temple era came out of Egypt as slaves, led by Moses.

 

[Degreez]

No, not really.
The Palestinians have chosen not to recognize the Partition plan.
Is that false? No, it's true.

The Palestinians have hence never followed the partition plan.
Is that false? No, it's true.

The partition plan was never effective on the Palestinian side.
Is that false? No, it's true.

Conclusion:
The Partition plan has no influence on Palestinian related decisions.

Incorrect conclusion.

From my same link:

The Jewish Agency contended that the Arab and Jewish portions of the plan were not integral. The Chairman of the Palestine Commission contended that they were integral.

Incorrect, Israel has established a state with West Jerusalem within it, recognized by the UN.
Incorrect, what's left now, as it is in reality, is to negotiate with the Palestinians on East Jerusalem's status.

Incorrect.

There is nothing to negotiate because Israel will either relinquish control of East Jerusalem or continue to be the Occupying Power of an occupied territory.

 

[Apocalypse]

The Jews (Israelites) of the First Temple era came out of Egypt as slaves, led by Moses.

Heh, that's a very twisted version you're making here.

I follow the Historic version, but even if we follow the biblical one this is still a false assumption.

Judah, son of Jacob, was born in the land of Cnn'aan known today as Israel/Palestine.
Josef, another son of Jacob, has ended up in Egypt after he was trapped and given to slaves owners.
Josef has served there as the Pharaoh's dreams analyzer.
After a while, Jacob and the rest of his sons have immigrated to Egypt.
After 200 years or so, the sons of Jacobs, the Israelite people, were made slaves by the time's Egyptian Pharaoh.

Then comes the Moses story, and the Israelite people are freed from slavery and are making their way to Cnaa'an, where the twelve tribes are each given their own land.

The Judah tribe is being formed in the region of what is today south-western West Bank, including Jerusalem.
The Jews are the citizens of the Judah region, sons of Judah.

You have also made a false equitation between Israelite and Jews.
Jews are Israelite, Israelite are not necessarily Jews.

 

[Apocalypse]

Incorrect conclusion.

The link you gave shows on no direct influence, but an indirect one.
Besides, when you do not recognize a document, you don't follow it.
When you don't follow it, it doesn't influence you.

There is nothing to negotiate because Israel will either relinquish control of East Jerusalem or continue to be the Occupying Power of an occupied territory.

Then I can only hope that Palestinian leaders would not follow that thought line and see the necessity of a civilized solution such as negotiations.

 

[washunut]

The link you gave shows on no direct influence, but an indirect one.
Besides, when you do not recognize a document, you don't follow it.
When you don't follow it, it doesn't influence you.
Then I can only hope that Palestinian leaders would not follow that thought line and see the necessity of a civilized solution such as negotiations.

Why should the Palestinians negotiate. They will sit back and let Obama do their bidding. I hope Israel wakes up to that fact.

 

[Apocalypse]

Why should the Palestinians negotiate. They will sit back and let Obama do their bidding. I hope Israel wakes up to that fact.

Obama is temporary.

 

[washunut]

Obama is temporary.

Seven years is a long time. Already there are killings in Gaza as Hamas becomes emboldened by Obama's actions.